Diesel Submarines In The News
Here's an interesting article on Israeli submarines that I though was worth a link. While the Israeli submarine force is often credited by idiots on the right with being able to transcend time and distance, everything I've heard is that they're a pretty good coastal defense force. My boats didn't work directly with many foreign diesels (at least not cooperatively), so I don't have that much direct experience, but I was impressed in the few instances I did with what the more advanced diesel boat operators could do with their limited capabilities.
Do you have any good stories about working with OPFOR diesel boats? Which country do you think does the best job? I've always heard the Chileans are right up there near the top. I'd say that, maintenance-wise, the Canadians would probably have to be near the bottom.
posted by Bubblehead at 1:15 PM
38 Comments:
In the mid seventies, on the first nuclear sub to make the UNITAS exercises, we worked with a number of SA diesel boats. The best was the Argentine (actually a German designed diesel). They nailed us the first exercise since we did not detect them until after they had "fired" their "torpedos". That was the only time they got us since the sonar shack now knew what to look for (basically, a reduction of sound level and some very weak ques on lofar). All of the other subs were old US diesel boats that were not much of a challenge. That is why it is key to give the current subforce operating experience against diesels. Once the team, especially the sonar shack, knows the cues, there in not much of a contest due to the better maneuverability of the nuc sub.
9/17/2011 6:43 PM
When I was on the Omaha, we played with some RAN Oberon's. Even though their boats were dated, they made the best of what they had.
9/17/2011 8:14 PM
I had the opportunity to spend two weeks onboard HMAS Rankin during RIMPAC. They were an excellent outfit...if not a bit surly. The senior officers were top notch and all the sailors were outstanding. The JOs were still trying to learn the trade but were pretty good. It was awesome to see them work and be involved in the operations. They actually surfaced and had the CDRE Submarines heloed over to do an at sea inspection (real reason: to bring them a video of a rugby game played in Oz the night before). Inspection lasted about 20 minutes.
All in all they punished any surface ship that came near them and made a fair showing against the US subs (I think they were a a disadvantage most of the time due to waterspace constraints)
9/17/2011 8:29 PM
Rode Uzushio for almost a week and was very impressed. Their shack is about 20yrs behind ours in terms of performance but their boats are QUIET. Crew was Very capable. Argentine boat I did ops with back imany years was very good but they had to run some gear for habitability intermittently & then we were all over them. Their boats are very good but their sensors and tactics are behind the curve. They did have the best boats in South America.
9/18/2011 12:07 AM
I'm going to be riding a Peruvian diesel in the near future, will let you know how it goes.
9/18/2011 12:09 AM
Played with Aussie and South American diesels on both my boats. Wasn't overly impressed by either, especially considering the constraints which were placed on us. That being said, when they're submerged and on batteries, they are a cast-iron bitch to find.
9/18/2011 7:45 AM
Some DESI links
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/usw/issue_30/desi.html
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/usw/usw_summer_08/desi.html
9/18/2011 8:25 AM
"While the Israeli submarine force is often credited by idiots on the right .."
Try this, 5 years later from the left:
US Rep. Barney Frank seeks $200B cut in defense spending...
Sen. Barney Frank: "I wish you can [sic] defeat terrorism with nuclear submarines because then we could beat it because we have all the nuclear submarines. The major part of our weapons spending and our military commitment overseas has nothing to do with terrorism and little to do with making us safer."
Yet, no one asks the really relevant question:
Do you have any good stories about working with HMS Gotland?
Because we are after all, an elite silent service.
9/18/2011 11:00 AM
My word Joel, you get more shrilly partisan with each passing week.
9/18/2011 11:08 AM
BH, Not to pile on but what's up with the silly political stuff?
You used to claim to be moderate but you sure have recalibrated to port.
Either way why bring it up and drag down your own blog?
9/18/2011 11:22 AM
I was the visiting sub repair guy for rimpac 06. The Japanese sub was immaculate, I felt like I was getting it dirty when I walked around below decks. HMAS Rankin was what I expected, almost like a US sub. We had complaints from the base when they snorkeled because of the noise. The South Koreans pulled in with a problem that required phone calls to Germany to get the drawings to fabricate some seawater piping. My impression of the SK's was that they operated but not maintained.
The worst diplomatic decision of the summer was to put the Japanese and the Koreans on S-1A/B so they had to share a security checkpoint.
RIMPAC is a blast if you're stationed at PH.
9/18/2011 1:51 PM
RIMPAC is a blast if you're stationed at PH.
Yeah, especially morning colors when everyone's in port.
9/18/2011 2:28 PM
Morning colors are long on the first day. After that, it's the standard US anthem and a minute of silence. It was a bigger pita when Peru had a ship in port. Their national anthem has four verses.
9/18/2011 2:47 PM
Division Officers have no trouble getting their divisions to form up for morning colors during RIMPAC. Everyone gets in line single file behind the JO so that only he has to salute.
The French national anthem is a long one too, and the ending seems to just suddenly fade away.
9/18/2011 3:23 PM
Immaculate is the only word that can be used to describe Japanese boats. And their crews are exceptionally professional. But watch out for the sake they freely dole out inport or you'll have trouble finding the hatch to go ashore.
It's a little tougher with the Aussies, because they have numerous varieties of alcohol hidden everywhere in the boat. As HMAS Oxley once demonstrated, a properly packed, 21-inch torpedo tube can hold 65 cases of beer (55 cases for the 19-inch tubes aft) and can keep it nice and cold below about 200 feet.
9/18/2011 3:28 PM
Anybody experience with Dutch submarines ? Read somewhere that they're pretty good as well doing alot of Perisher training for other submarine forces (including Israeli)
9/18/2011 4:39 PM
Morning colors are long on the first day. After that, it's the standard US anthem and a minute of silence.
It wasn't always that way, Sparky.
9/18/2011 7:52 PM
Sorry, but World Nut Daily is a bunch of idiots. There's no way around it.
9/18/2011 8:09 PM
And The Kos, HuffPo, and the DU aren't? Idiocy and lunatic fringes are not relegated to one political side.
Did some work with the SKs back when they first got their 209s. They put a JO on our boat and we put one of my STS1s on theirs.
First set of ops we were able to pop them at will due to the way they operated.
After an inport debrief and compared notes with the riders the SKs were pretty quick to adapt the way they operate the boat and on the second set of ops they were much harder to get the drop on.
The Chileans routinely send a boat to San Diego (Carrera, a new Scorpene class is here now) for training and ops and they have made remarkable improvements over the years.
9/18/2011 8:58 PM
"Sorry, but World Nut Daily is a bunch of idiots. There's no way around it."
(Tee hee, I see what you did there!) Then you could have said that. Instead, you took a shot at a large group of people. It's your blog, but if you're looking to make it into a bizarre hybrid of submarine news and Democratic party ravings I don't think it's going to be well received.
9/19/2011 5:06 AM
@kellyj - Yes, they are. And had they claimed that Israeli submarines were each making two trips all the way around Africa per year, I would have made fun of them too. Truthers are even dumber than Birthers, IMHO.
9/19/2011 5:08 AM
Joseph Smithers are even dumber than Truthers and Birthers, IMHO.
9/19/2011 8:36 AM
Look, I'm as conservative as just about anyone here and I didn't take Joel's comment as a slam on conservatives, just certain sensationalistic outlets, although the phrasing of such could have been a little better.
Wow...what's next? Another gays/women on the boats thread? That might actually be safer.
Although when we were working with a Chilean boat in SD, one of our ST's who is Hispanic and spoke excellent Spanish had the Chiefs of one of our boats (LaJolla?) buying the guy shots and beers, thinking our ST was acutally a Chilean sailor--until our COB walked in the club.
Ah, good times.
9/19/2011 10:11 AM
On occasion, Joel slams the left as well, usually accompanied by a 'tin foil hat crowd' label. I know, it's been a while, but there you have it.
All too often we the people tend to treat politics with an "us vs. them" foo'ball-like attitude. That's just biting into the bullshit that either political party sells. The reality is -- and should be -- that whoever is in office works for us.
But the political 'panty' types don't want you to hold them accountable, so they play the foo'ball analogy...and people get sucked in and surrender their intellects in the process.
Take all the recent hoohah regarding the deficit, national debt and taxes into account, for instance.
The clear, obvious, simple, and only FAIR fix is a flat tax with zero deductions. End of the "51% don't pay taxes" crap. End of the "class warfare" crap. End of the "the truly rich don't pay taxes" crap. End of "unfair taxes" crap. End of unintended consequences by way of tax 'incentives.'
Which is precisely why the "foo'ball" types won't let this happen, much less propose it.
9/19/2011 11:54 AM
Seeing as how Glorious Leader is tanking in the polls worse than ever and the extra-smart brilliant Democrats just lost 2 of 2 special elections in the House, Joel can be excused for feeling a bit cantankerous.
9/19/2011 4:00 PM
Why feel glum about Obama when you can sing a song?
9/19/2011 4:39 PM
I agree with the flat tax in principal, but most of the proposals are actually regressionist tax policies in faux populist garb.
Everybody in the country that earns an income that is not through either 1) Capital Gains Loopholes or 2) Social Security pays taxes on their income. they might not pay Federal Income Taxes, but I guarantee you that they pay FICA taxes, because there are no deductions on FICA payroll taxes. However, there is an upper band on Social Security taxes that caps out at $106K/year.
So lets take Two people, one that makes $25K/year, and one that makes $1MM/year and assume the following:
Social Security taxes: 5%
Medicare Taxes: 2%
Flat Tax:13% (to make the math easy)
$25K guy would pay 5K/year in taxes, or... 20%
$1MM guy pays the following:
$100K in Federal Flat Tax
$5K in Social Security tax
$20K in Medicare tax
For a total of $125k/year, or 12.5%
This is of course, completely ignoring the regressive nature of sales tax, gasoline tax, hospitality tax, 401K benefits, IRA benefits, etc. Which would just further compound the difference in the effective tax rate of $25K guy and $1MM guy on the flat tax system.
Of course, if you uncap Social Security, it starts to actually come pretty close to actually flat rates. I would probably consider supporting a system something like that, if there was some kind of standard deduction where nobody paid any taxes on up to the poverty line to avoid really sticking it to the most vulnerable citizens.
At the very least, you could vastly simplify the IRS, which has to be worth something.
The real failure in our system is that the US Government sold out the middle class to the corporations through trade agreements and loopholes in pension laws that allowed corporations to raid pension funds for profits. Most politicians are bought and paid for, so they push these faux populist ideas in our faces under the guise of "It's fair", when a little bit of algebra will reveal that they really are not fair at all.
9/19/2011 5:01 PM
I made a typo, 1MM guy actually pays 15% of his income in taxes, which is still a huge discount on $25K guy's rate of 20%
9/19/2011 5:03 PM
Having a cap on Social Security makes no sense whatsoever...yet both political parties shy away from making it go away.
Social Security is a form of mandated altruism. Always has been, always will be. It's a stand-alone (except when the gov't borrows money from it...which should be forbidden) pay-through system wherein today's workers pay a minimal amount of sustenance to the aged. On the surface, that just makes sense.
Where SS breaks down:
(1) Fostering the notion that it is some kind of a savings plan. It most definitely is not.
(1) Making payments to people who financially simply do not need them.
Fix #1 and #2, remove the cap, do away with the government EVER touching any of its monies, and you have yourself a fundamentally good social welfare system for the aged and infirm. SS system problems could be fixed tomorrow this way.
National income taxes to fund the government are a whole other thing.
The KEY to a truly functional flat tax is having ZERO deductions. Anything less and you quickly run into fairness issues, if not the-richest-still-don't-pay-taxes issues.
9/19/2011 5:12 PM
(Regret typo on #2, and lack of editing feature for anons.)
P.S. t...what exactly do you mean by 'most proposals' on a flat tax with zero deductions are "regressive"? There is only one way of doing this, so I'm honestly curious what you mean by that statement. And there's nothing arguably 'regressive' about a truly flat tax -- it's flat...i.e., neither progressive nor regressive.
9/19/2011 5:16 PM
P.P.S. t...you've _got_ to tax everyone, or the system runs into danger of becoming a purely entitlement-driven system. It'd be a constant battle as to where "the line" is.
Moreover, taxing everyone some amount provides both a sense of pride and ownership in the government to everyone...not just those above the so-called poverty line.
Lastly, having a line in the sand for "no taxes below xyz dollars" incentivizes *some* to not report (or perhaps even try to earn) income above said line in the sand.
There's only one fair way to administer taxes, and that's to administer them fairly to all....and that's a flat-% tax with zero deductions.
9/19/2011 5:24 PM
What I meant by "most proposals" is that most people are talking about a flat "INCOME" Tax, but leaving Payroll taxes (i.e. SS) alone, which makes the net taxation SS + FICA regressive. If you remove the Cap on SS and true deductions, it is not regressive.
However, once you take into account the consumption taxes such as sales tax and gasoline taxes, the system once again becomes regressive, because the poorest Americans spend almost every dime they take in, where the richest spend a lot smaller proportionally (as a group) so they pay less sales tax as percentage of their income => less taxes overall as a proportion of their income. You can't convince me that a system where a guy who makes 20k/year pays proportionally more than a guy that makes 1MM/year is fair, even if it's fractions of a percent.
As for the minimum amount of no pay. As the proportion of Americans living in poverty creeps up, I don't feel comfortable leaning on the poor for more money. If we are going to tax them at the same rate we tax millionaires, they should get something for their money in the type of investment that lead to better jobs and making it less profitable for companies to outsource.
I don't see that happening soon.
9/19/2011 8:08 PM
"...they should at least get something for their money..."
I believe it's called " American citizenship."
As regards local consumption taxes for arguing against federal taxes, the wide-ranging disparity there makes that -- to my way of thinking -- a local issue, not one for the U.S. government.
The poor often stay in that condition like an elephant conditioned into believing that the smallest of ropes can hold it...it's because 'everything' tells them that they can't take care of themselves. In the vast majority of cases, life experience tells me to very much doubt the so-called truth of that.
Having and embracing an overlord necessarily means surrendering your own ability to determine your destiny. Not my cup of tea.
Life presents opportunities to all...not the federal government.
9/20/2011 7:58 AM
Joel is just letting his true colors shine through. A liberal submarine blogger that is still bitter over his failed Naval career.
9/21/2011 12:28 AM
so, yeah, diesel boats can be tough fighters, and clean.
10/13/2011 6:14 PM
when they're submerged and on batteries, they are a cast-iron bitch to find.
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