News From The NSL Symposium And Other Submarine News
With the Naval Submarine League symposium going on last week, there's a lot of interesting submarine news on the web. Here's a roundup:
1) Enlisted women could start reporting to submarines as early as 2016. I expect this will be more problematic that the integration of female officers -- due to berthing and maturity concerns (not wanting to sound elitist, but, c'mon, anyone who's been around Navy female enlisted women recognize that there are, in general, certain differences between them and female officers in various areas relating to self-control and considerations of the long-term effects of decisions they may make...). I hope I'm wrong. (My data set is based on one deployment aboard an aircraft carrier in 2000.)
2) VADM Connor warns of a submarine shortfall due to the upcoming retirement of Los Angeles-class boats. The "we might have to extend the service life of some boats" suggestion always worries me, since a LID boat has obvious tactical liabilities -- unless they've got more engineering data that says they can increase hull life safely or have figured out a way to anneal the hull.
3) A very good .ppt presentation of the future direction of the Virginia class and Ohio Replacement can be found here. Here's a cool slide from the presentation:
Here's an article discussing this slide.
4) Yesterday marked the 10th anniversary of the grounding of USS Hartford (SSN 768) off La Madd. As I've mentioned before, that one was kind of personal for me.
5) Interesting story from Down Under about an O-Boat Cold War mission that almost went very bad.
6) Topside watchstanders in Norfolk reportedly are now required to wear life jackets at all times as a result of the tragic loss of a USS Boise (SSN 764) crewmember in July. Not sure if the change is being implemented Forcewide.
7) Lastly, in Meridian, Idaho, local retired Submarine Officers are still able to reduce property values throughout their neighborhood but putting up gaudy decorations for Halloween, although with their sons off at various schools they don't feel the need to put up roof inflatables anymore:
posted by Bubblehead at 9:18 AM
33 Comments:
As regards life preservers for topside watches: hopefully they'll be able to wear something along the lines of the low-profile, seawater-activated, auto-inflate types that are available to the airdales.
10/26/2013 10:17 AM
On the PPT, it looks like the OHIO replacement will have the same hull coating at the VA class. I think that is a mistake
10/26/2013 12:57 PM
"As regards life preservers for topside watches: hopefully they'll be able to wear something along the lines of the low-profile, seawater-activated, auto-inflate types that are available to the airdales." -Anon
Especially since the navy already buys them for aviation crews (at a respectable, volume pricing), right? Perhaps not. If skimmers are allowed to make the call, they will say due to sequestration cutbacks, submariners will have to be treated like every else, including the Coast Guard (photo of work party at Molten Eagle).
Imagine standing a topside in 80 deg weather at even normal humidity in a standard navy life vest. It would be dehydration hell.
10/26/2013 2:45 PM
I'm on a boat in San Diego and the requirement for us now is an auto-inflatable life vest for topside watch standers. Fortunately NOT the Kapok-style we all thought they were going to require. In short, the guys now wear vest-style auto inflatables like the ones worn topside while conducting BSPs or mooring.
10/26/2013 9:12 PM
Just an observation both the OR and Ohios they replace are 560’ in length but the replacement will have 16 tubes instead of 24. Where did the space for the 8 tubes go?
Speculation - Electric drive, full life cycle reactor, Virginia class combat systems, “female crew accommodations” or all of the above.
Joel, in the photo is the ghostly character on pirate ship wearing a kapok life vest or is it an inflatable like the rest of the scenery?
LL
10/27/2013 9:48 AM
I can vouch for the fact that topside watchstanders in Pearl harbor are wearing the auto-inflate vests. I'm almost suprised they arent in kapoks, that would be a much worse deal....
10/27/2013 12:03 PM
Topside watchstanders in Bangor wear life vests, too. As for SSBN(X), all the chatter I hear is similar to what LL said. Electric drive, more heartily fueled reactor.
10/27/2013 7:20 PM
If a boat sinks with women on board do you think they would reverse the decision?
We already had close call with SanFran.
Imagine if a female boat driver causes a ship's incident. How do you think Big Navy will deal with it?
I agree with you Joel in that enlisted females is a much different calculus than female officers.
What happens when a female becomes the dept shitbag and needs "the talk". Sucks to be that chief/Div-O who gets stuck dealing with high maintenance female.
10/28/2013 12:38 AM
LL - It's an inflatable pirate jacket.
10/28/2013 1:23 AM
Joel: Do you have any kapok Halloween decorations?
10/28/2013 7:00 AM
What the hell will happen if a female saves your ass?
10/28/2013 1:07 PM
I can't imagine trying to run A-gang with a couple women. No more just--"suck it up"!
panamared
10/28/2013 2:01 PM
Random question from a civilian, but what's the noise level like on the 955 class? Anything in the public domain about that?
Have the sovs finally built something we have to worry about? or is this just the next generation of the same old thing?
10/28/2013 9:05 PM
Случайный вопрос из гражданских, но то, что уровень шума, как на 955 класса? Все, что в общественном достоянии по этому поводу?
У Sovs, наконец, построили, что мы должны беспокоиться? или это просто следующее поколение одно и то же?
Er...ummm...I mean:
Random question from a civilian, but what's the noise level like on the 955 class? Anything in the public domain about that?
Have the sovs finally built something we have to worry about? or is this just the next generation of the same old thing?
10/29/2013 5:37 AM
If a boat sinks with women on board do you think they would reverse the decision?
No. Sadly, it wouldn't be the first female servicemembers to be killed in the line of duty.
Imagine if a female boat driver causes a ship's incident. How do you think Big Navy will deal with it?
They will relieve her of command (CO, XO or DH) and she will resign her commission or retire, depending on how many years in service she has.
Are you not familiar with Capt Holly Graf?
What happens when a female becomes the dept shitbag and needs "the talk".
You pull them aside, have a 3rd person present as is required by Navy policy if the conversation is mixed-gender, and tell her to stop sucking at life.
Sucks to be that chief/Div-O who gets stuck dealing with high maintenance female.
I don't want females on submarines for logistical and cost reasons, but everything you have mentioned is why the decision was made to put women on submarines.
Have you ever held a job for a private company? Because they hire women and they are able to solve problems with poor performance just fine.
A high maintenance female is better than a male ELT who can't sample the primary without managing to spray himself and the reader with radioactive water.
10/29/2013 9:52 AM
On the PPT, it looks like the OHIO replacement will have the same hull coating at the VA class. I think that is a mistake
Why (understandable if you can't share)?
And has your CO and his buddies given feedback to Admirals, or is this one of those things everyone on the waterfront knows about but keeps secret. Because I bet they can change it a lot easier now than when after they actually start construction.
10/29/2013 9:55 AM
I served in SSNs and a SSBN 80s-late 90s, then reported to a CVN where I had 6-8 females at any given time. The 80-20 rule applied pretty much equally.
As for counseling, Anon @0952 summed it up best; 3rd party present etc.
There will be problems, stupidity, immaturity, whatever. It is inevitable.
10/29/2013 12:18 PM
I've been around for several years, and have never heard of this magical 3 person rule. Maybe they teach at boot camp now. If we are going to make this work, we can't have separate rules for mixed gender sessions. It's not like there are minors involved where it makes sense to have two people present no matter what the gender. How about this 'rule' don't be dumb during counseling sessions. Speak about professional conduct. Conduct yourself with the utmost professionalism. You don't need to sit knee to knee to have a counseling session (avoid the appearance of inpropirety). Maybe keep the door open if you are worried that you have a problem person that may have a tendency to make a false claim (but that should apply in all situations, male-male or male-female or female-female you need to evaluate the situation of when you want anotehr person in the room as a witness, btu the reason should not solely be mixed gender). Finally, hugs are not an appropriate part of a counseling session (or at the Naval Academy gradaution, you are in the Navy, it's your Commander in Chief, it's not appropropriate).
10/30/2013 5:41 AM
If you haven't heard of the 3 person rule, it's because of one or all of the following: you stuck your head in the sand about it, you work on a submarine and had no reason to worry about it until recently, or you enlisted and junior enlisted have no reason to worry about how to properly counsel someone of the opposite gender.
But they do teach it in the officer training pipelines (and hopefully in CPO indoc). It's to protect both parties -- the senior from possible unsubstantiated sexual assault allegations and the junior from possible sexual assault.
10/30/2013 9:52 AM
Can't you just feel the combat effectiveness growing as we discuss this?
Not so much?
Perhaps Internet-Commodore Minium can share some more "non-tripe" wisdom with us. That seemed to work out so well last time.
10/30/2013 9:57 AM
To anon at 9:52. To answer your question I have been in plenty of commands with males and females, so they may teach it, but show it to me in Navy Regulations. I am going to conduct myself with the utmost professionalsim. I have no problem being open and honest and nothing to hide, but don't feel the need to have a the BS lawyers arguement agaisnt protecting both parties. That's one reason why the Navy continues to have difficulty. We don't teach doing the right f'ing thing, we teach cover your ass. If someone is being unprofessional, screw him or her (no not literaly) and throw them out. Of course you can't say zero tolerance, but zero tolerance. Same goes for trumped up charges. Court martial and off you go. Instead we get twisted by the lawyers, well there's actually no reason why the first class LPO can't try and date the 3rd class division member. The frat rules don't cover that. Well here's a rule, I'm the CO and I said no, it's prejudicial to good order and discipline. Go find someone outside of your ship to date, preferably outside the Navy. But, we can never get there because we have to accept the moral relativism of every situation rather than adhering to a higher set of rules.
10/30/2013 2:59 PM
The 9:52 Anon's point is still well taken: if in the course of a counseling session, regardless of who's instigated it, if things start to get weird your own common sense can and will tell you when to bring in another party.
Was at a DC area command as a JO once upon a time, and a young female YN who worked in my division, and whose husband was in another country on PERMDU, asked to have a private talk with me as her division officer. Okay, fine...but when the talk started to go down the path of how she feels she was sexually assaulted at a recent civ party she'd attended, and that became a springboard to get into details that I obviously didn't need to know, and all the while she was without what I'd have judged to be the 'affect' of someone who'd actually been assaulted...another agenda became obvious and I pulled in her CPO to the conversation. End of drama. That time.
In hindsight, leaving out several other attempts on her part, she was clearly just trying to get my motor running. I was a young and professional JO, and just wasn't going to go there. She was one of "my people," and I took that protective role seriously...and frankly I'm not that good looking of a guy, ice cream suit or not; she just wasn't right in the head.
In the end, we got her shipped out to be with her husband, regardless of everything else...including her suitability for an overseas assignment. Can only hope it worked out for them.
But what a bunch of unnecessary soap opera nonsense. Can't help but wonder how many other nothing-to-do-with-the-military-job dramas like this play out every single day in the Navy with women in ever more roles these days.
10/30/2013 5:08 PM
Have you ever held a job for a private company? Because they hire women and they are able to solve problems with poor performance just fine.
Well, I have . . . from a plant level environment to the corporate office . . . and it is apples to oranges to what you are comparing. Women in the civilian workforce do not live in their cubicles, do not use the same restrooms or showers . . . and quite honestly, in the plant environment do not pull their weight. Like it or not, they are shown favoritism, given extra days off for children or just being sick more often, etc.
Though they may be inconvenient, they are factual observations.
10/30/2013 6:42 PM
To anon at 9:52. To answer your question I have been in plenty of commands with males and females, so they may teach it, but show it to me in Navy Regulations.
Go find it yourself. Or not. Doesn't bother me any, I'll just say 'told you so' when some PO3 you conseled cries sexual assault as revenge for hurting her feelings.
10/30/2013 9:59 PM
Well, I have . . . from a plant level environment to the corporate office . . . and it is apples to oranges to what you are comparing. Women in the civilian workforce do not live in their cubicles, do not use the same restrooms or showers . . .
I was comparing job performance in the Navy (think standing watch or doing collateral duties) to job performance elsewhere. They can be compared.
I agree with you that the logistical and command climate cost of putting women on submarines is not worth the gain.
and quite honestly, in the plant environment do not pull their weight. Like it or not, they are shown favoritism, given extra days off for children or just being sick more often, etc.
Don't blame the women you work with for the poor managerial ability of your company. It's management's job to uphold standards and ensure everyone is doing their share. People are going to get away with what they can get away with, male or female.
10/30/2013 11:48 PM
The best thing to do with women is have them be mess cranks. Permanently.
Maybe that's the best place for them after all.
10/31/2013 1:43 AM
I don't know how it works nowadays, but when I was in (dinosaur tale) peers did more to "counsel" than cheifs, officers, or first classes. When it got there, shit really hit the fan.
When a second class gets relieved late for the 5th time in a week, he retaliates. How is that going to go? I remember how it went for the guy who couldn't get his shit together on time, but how 'bout the girl? Will she get drenched with a full cup of water to ensure she is up? Or poked continuously, until she gets up?
I'm sorry. The new guys are professionals, and they will use the chain of command to fix the problem, and continue to get relieved late - with a smile on his face, knowing the cheives have fixed the problem.
Peer pressure, in mixed company, is going to put a lot of jr sailors on the carpet; given the dribble on this particular thread.
10/31/2013 7:24 AM
Was at a DC area command as a JO once upon a time, and a young female YN who worked in my division, and whose husband was in another country on PERMDU, asked to have a private talk with me as her division officer....
This story could have happened at any workplace, since it happened on shore duty. You don't think some women in private companies try to flirt with the boss to get ahead?
Unnecessary drama? Of course. But it wasn't caused by the unique circumstances of living on a ship or sub together.
10/31/2013 8:06 AM
^^^ It was 'caused' by having women in the military. Period.
10/31/2013 10:12 AM
The Virgina Payload Module sketches leave a lot of questions. What is the effect on reserve buoyancy? Recoverability? and speed? They are already hard to maneuver on the surface. PARCHE and JIMMY CARTER had additional ballast tanks in their plugs.
10/31/2013 8:48 PM
Was BDW one midwatch on the Bremerton when I heard 2 pops on the 1MC. Called the topside watch who informed me he had walked to the aft end on the boat to watch the fish when he slid off the boat into the harbor at Pearl. duty Chief said TS and the topside stood the remainder of his watch shivering. Lesson learned not to goof off while on watch.
11/02/2013 12:42 PM
Re: Harford grounding - that one was kind of personal for me too, because the Commodore with the questionable order was the MPA of my first boat when I was in M-Div. I was at his dolphin quals party... in Jinhae I think.
11/13/2013 1:16 PM
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