Keeping the blogosphere posted on the goings on of the world of submarines since late 2004... and mocking and belittling general foolishness wherever it may be found. Idaho's first and foremost submarine blog. (If you don't like something on this blog, please E-mail me; don't call me at home.)

Wednesday, May 20, 2009

Submarine JO Transition Blog

Check out The Cyborg Life by a Submarine JO who's getting out next year; it's really a good read. I like the interviews the best.


Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ahh, yet another whiny little B*&CH!
JO on the Hampton. Things that make you go hmmmm.....

Best of luck getting a job when a prospective employer googles you. They LOVE it when there's internet evidence of you documenting any sort of disdain about a former employer...

5/20/2009 7:14 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

LT Jeff Lee. USNA '02. USS HAMPTON. Nice.

5/20/2009 7:15 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey, I know these people!

5/20/2009 8:50 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The first guy was definitely a whiner. If he wishes to maintain such a piss-ant view on life, okay fine...let him do the sea bag drag out the back gate. I'd say "Get the fuck over yourself, wouldja' please Sir. It doesn't matter if you're an E2 or an O2, we all have to march our happy asses through the painful gauntlet of Sub life in order to prove ourselves trustworthy.

However, this Gent does seem to have an acute business sense. Perhaps he'll do fine in the corporate world. If that's what he wants in life instead of a career in the Navy, then let him go for it.

MT2 WidgetHead

5/20/2009 11:36 PM

Anonymous LT L said...

"However, this Gent does seem to have an acute business sense. Perhaps he'll do fine in the corporate world."

No he doesn't, and no he won't. As a hiring manager, I always Google/MySpace search/FaceBook search prospective employees for this specific job-related attitude problem. I hated a lot of my time n the Navy, but did the best I could with what I had and never, NEVER bitched in a public forum. If you can't make lemonade you can go suck lemons in the unemployment line.


5/21/2009 7:44 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I hope that the young LT reads LT L's advice above and cleans up his internet trail. I'd hate for a youthful lack of judgement to harm his long term career prospects.

5/21/2009 8:27 AM

Anonymous Carl said...

I only skimmed portions of the site and what I saw was typical for that age group (and for me when I was that age and that stage of life thinking about getting out of the Navy).

A bit immature; some lack of personal insight but not atypical.

5/21/2009 11:33 AM

Blogger 630-738 said...


I have to ask: so what do you do if you find an employee who does his work very well, but vents his frustration online?
I don't get this rush to dismiss folks because they are youthful and b**ch about their jobs. As if any of us never complained. I believe in loyalty as much as anyone else, but some of this is carried too damn far.

Having said that, I hope folks who are thinking about transitioning out of the Navy into civilian life are paying attention: Youthful indiscretions posted on the internet have a way of becoming immortal. If you're gonna act stupid, make sure there's no camera around to record it for prosperity.

5/21/2009 12:59 PM

Blogger phw said...

I think you guys are overreacting. This is the Navy he's talking about. People gripe and everyone knows it. I didn't see anything on his site that would cause me not to hire this man if he came to me looking for a job.

5/21/2009 1:25 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Perhaps the reason people are judging him is beacuse he is/was an officer. Could be me, but I think that at least in comparison to an enlisted sailor, officers are scrutinized a little bit more than enlisted. Though personally, I think they should all be held to the same standards.

I think that this is a phenomenon we're seeing with this age group. It's a very self-centered group, and that's exacerbated by things such a blogs, myspace, facebook, youtube, etc. You're the star of your own little world, and I think that they forget a little anonnymity goes a long way.

Hey, if he wants to complain about being in the Navy, go for it. But just because he's getting out soon, doesn't make it right to do it in such an open manner. At least he's getting out, you know, instead of staying in and making his and other's lives miserable.

But that's just me.

5/21/2009 2:02 PM

Blogger phw said...

I was commenting on his ability to get a job in the civilian world. I didn't read anything that suggests that this man could not work well in my organization.

The appropriateness of his blogs in regard to his current role in the Navy is an entirely different matter. I can't comment on that. That's something for his command to work out.

Didn't we just recently have a JO get his blog shutdown for being a little too specific in his blog? And not being anonymous enough?

5/21/2009 2:33 PM

Blogger beebs said...

ADM Zumalt came to the Academy back in 1976. He had a simple message as I recall: If you want to complain about the Navy, get out of the Navy first and then complain.

5/21/2009 3:21 PM

Anonymous LT L said...

I have to ask: so what do you do if you find an employee who does his work very well, but vents his frustration online?
I don't get this rush to dismiss folks because they are youthful and b**ch about their jobs. As if any of us never complained. I believe in loyalty as much as anyone else, but some of this is carried too damn far.
If you read the fine print of your employment contract you will usually find a clause concerning publishing anything concerning the company (unless, of course, you work in the PR/communications department). You're allowed to bitch, but bitch to your buddies over beers, not to a buch of strangers on the interwebs. Not quitting is tacit acceptance of the circumstances you are in (I know, the Navy is different, but still). I don't fire complainers, though I also don't hire them, promote them, or recommend them to prospective employers. If they hate their job so much they will eventually leave. If you don't like your job, find another one; lord knows I did.


5/21/2009 3:41 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

{Perhaps the reason people are judging him is beacuse he is/was an officer. Could be me, but I think that at least in comparison to an enlisted sailor, officers are scrutinized a little bit more than enlisted. Though personally, I think they should all be held to the same standards. }

Honestly no, except that he is probably a couple years older than the enlisted folks who would be getting out after their first enlistment. That being said - officers get far more privileges and leeway. There are subsequently higher expectations. Tough cookies.

As a hiring manager in civilian land, I would not be concerned about a bitching sailor, officer or enlisted. I would be concerned that this guy would think he could bitch about his NEW employer in the same fashion.

5/21/2009 3:56 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Quote: "Perhaps the reason people are judging him is beacuse he is/was an officer. Could be me, but I think that at least in comparison to an enlisted sailor, officers are scrutinized a little bit more than enlisted. Though personally, I think they should all be held to the same standards."

It's true, the unrestricted line JOs are always held to a higher standard. Much more so than CWOs or LDOs. You've got to be able to withstand the viscosity/pressure of scrutiny. At the same time just do your best and try and be understanding that the crap you'll put up with isn't personal. A lot of JOs seem to understand this for the most part. The smart ones keep their gripes and frustrations in the wardroom, where they belong. I've noticed that they are the ones who come back smiling as newly promoted DHs and etc...

Brand new JOs are scrutinized a lot more than junior enlisted. The new JO is expected to learn his job and be a leader the day he reports aboard. In some ways that's not really fair to them. They need to be given some space to breath as they move forward.

With us enlisted guys, we are given a much larger margin for error. I've noticed and experienced that the pressure of enlisted leadership doesn't really get that heavy until you make 2nd and 1st class. We have a few years to get ready for this, the new JOs don't. That's not entirely fair if you think about it.

For enlisted it is fair because we get more time to learn our jobs and act accordingly. Gotta admit, I'm feeling the weight of expectation since I just found out this morning that I'm one of 17 guys (fleetwide) selected to put on MT1 this time around. Personally, I thought I'd have a new set of PNP points after this round. I didn't even bother to ask my MTCS when the results "might" be coming out. But a price tag came with that morning phone call I received. I'm being put off the boat and sent back to Kings Bay for 106days next week for school. I really don't want to spend the summer in Georgia. But it's been explained to me that I'm under the microscope since I'm one of the few who was selected for advancement. We had alot of fun shit planned for this summer, here in Bremerton too. But hey, now I'm starting to sound like a whiner huh? Wow,what a surprise, I honestly didn't see this one coming so soon. I admit I got lucky. I still can't believe there was only 17 of us this cycle.

The higher the position, all the more responsibility and heavier expectations are thrust upon us.
For new JOs, it comes so much quicker and at a faster speed. I wonder if this was too much for the JO in question on the other blog? Now he feels the need to express his frustrations in public. Hopefully this public display won't hurt him in the future. I have to admit I winced a little bit when I watched it.

To all the other 3rd thru 1sts, who read this blog, I hope you guys received the results you wanted.


5/21/2009 4:53 PM

Blogger Harry Buckles said...

I worked with Jeff a bit and knew some of the guys he interviewed. Despite a bit of the bitch session, I think he presents a professional a useful forum on the topic of staying in versus getting out. I've chosen to stay in, albeit not in subs, but I don't criticize the guys who know what they want and get out or know what they want and stay in.

Where else on the web are there interviews with guys explaining simply why they chose to stay in? The Navy isn't offering such tools and in today's age that means that somebody else will.

5/21/2009 5:31 PM

Anonymous Anon E. Moose said...

Reminds me of something I learned at Canoe U and try to practice:

3rd Law of the Navy
Take heed what you say of your seniors,
Be your words spoken softly or plain,
Let a bird of the air tell the matter,
And so shall ye hear it again.
However, LT Lee is not speaking of anyone in particular (by name) but of the Submarine Force in general.
So I will apply Laws 13 & 14:

Do they growl? it is well. Be thou silent,
If the work goeth forward amain.
Lo! the gun throws the shot to a hair's breadth
And shouteth, yet none shall complain.

Do they growl, and the work be retarded?
It is ill, be whatever their rank.
The half-loaded gun also shouteth,
But can she pierce target with blank?

5/21/2009 5:59 PM

Blogger Srvd_SSN_CO said...

JOs with crappy COs get out. That is not news. I appreciate interviews with both sides, but the interview with the SFO JO was interesting. Who are these hit squads from 'on high' that go after JOs? WTF? Everyone said the SFO was a great boat and yet either the XO or CO goes after JOs? What the hell for?

Stories like that piss me off, but the dude in the home page interview--needs to learn how to be professional.

5/21/2009 6:08 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Umm, LT, the Chief of Staff wants to see you in his office when your shift ends.

Your ass will be instantaneously unfrozen upon arrival for that meeting...

5/21/2009 6:39 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would have more of a problem with this if he had only posted anti-navy opinions. Instead, he asserts his own opinion, but gives ample air time to opposing positions, in the interviews with people staying in. I found the interviews to be worth my time, and appreciate his effort, however detrimental it may be to his employment prospects.
-A sub JO

5/21/2009 6:45 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Off-topic but of interest: Oprah had an interview today with a submarine commanding officer...while he was at PD in the South Pacific. Used Skype. Check it out if you can...not a bad bit of PR for the USN.

5/21/2009 6:45 PM

Anonymous ex SSN Eng said...

Srvd_SSN_CO: If you're somehow unaware that JOs feel all too often like their on the receiving end of the spear, as opposed to being LED and MENTORED, then go get some smelling salts, my friend -- you've lost consciousness.

As a long-time reader of Joel's blog, some of the kiss-my-ass attitudes from more than a few senior officers towards the JOs have been unmistakeable. And we wonder why the guys get out...?

Like it or not, I'm afraid that this is the collective experience that most JOs have: they are under attack...not someone's wing.

5/21/2009 6:51 PM

Anonymous ex SSN Eng said...

(Spelling -2: "they're")

5/21/2009 6:52 PM

Blogger phw said...

I finally got to see some of the videos. Yes, there is some wince-factor. Still I stand by my comments from before.

Congratulations to MT1 (to be) WidgetHead...

5/21/2009 7:49 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here's the URL for the CDR John Sager (CO, USS LOUISVILLE) interview via SKYPE with Oprah Winfrey:

He did a pretty good job!

5/21/2009 8:35 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I always love reading or hearing the thought process these HR types use. Most assume themselves waaaay more important than reality. Reality is that a middle school dropout could perform 99% of HR/Hiring functions with no downside to any company. As for Googling a potential hire, "most" of us have already figured out that one and know that diggits like Lt. L might be lurking.

5/22/2009 1:10 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

No non-veteran civilian knows or cares about anything a veteran did in the Navy. When a civilian finds out you were on a submarine, he will ask precisely two questions and then move on to some other topic. Those questions are:

1) Don't you get claustrophobic? (depends on the rack)
2) What was the longest time you were away from land?
(long enough that my eyes stopped focusing on things more than 10ft away)

I would agree that he should take his name off the blog, though. Not that there's anything terrible in there, but it's never good to go into an interview with an information disadvantage against your interviewer.

-former 1125 MBA

5/22/2009 1:21 AM

Anonymous SJV said...

As far as "bitching" online being a negative in hiring, it's simple: Why would I want someone working for me who may complain in a public forum about my operations?

I also don't really see anything on the JO's blog that I'd regard as negative, just immature. There are so many other things he could cover. How much respect he has for those in the world who helped him get where he is, how much he respects those who are staying in, how much work it took him to get where he is,..etc. If he chooses to leave, he should talk about why he thinks the alternative is better, not why the Navy is worse.

I can tell you this, there are more people on this Earth who would be glad to get IN his position than there are who would want to get OUT of it.

5/22/2009 7:21 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Skyping with Oprah. DId his genitals shrivel up and fall off before, during, or after the call?

5/22/2009 10:08 AM

Anonymous Pig said...

Man, love to see all the hatred out there. It's cool to see that everyone who lacks the forethought and initiative to create something unique and put their voice out into the world can be so critical of someone willing to take a chance. Jeff Lee is one of the smartest people I have met. It's funny to see how many "corporate experts" are out there trying to give horrible advice. I think Jeff offers an unbiased perspective on the submarine force and is trying to capture the voice of the JO's who are staying in the service and those who are getting out.

5/22/2009 1:49 PM

Anonymous SJV said...

In the world of regular people, smart and unique counts far less than polite, respectful, and courteous. I'm sure that Mr. Lee is many of those things, and that as a smart man he will learn quickly, but IMHO his time would be far better spent reading and listening than talking and writing.

5/22/2009 3:05 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is a damn shame that an SSBN CO didn't conduct the first PD interview with Oprah. Would've been poetic...might even have brought a tear to the eye. ;-)

5/22/2009 3:30 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jeff Lee reminds me of that kid in the crowd who had the audacity to say that "the king has no clothes."

The crowd doesn't like the obvious to be pointed out. The cognitive dissonance makes their heads hurt.

Ouch. Guess the truth really does hurt.

5/22/2009 3:32 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The navy (and the HAM in particular) have not been good to our JO's. Boats differ, but in general we as Submariners need to treat our young officers better....or we get slammed in cyberspace, it is a fact of life. It is not about hard work, most of them don't mind it; it is about mentoring and rewarding good work. Until the Submarine service gets the message, we will continue to lose good people. BTW, Jeff is good people.

5/23/2009 3:33 PM

Anonymous Pig said...

SJV's comment reeks of arrogance. I love to see that the submarine community eats their own. Anyone who thinks they are any better than the next guy, no matter if you are a CO or seamen, definitely deserves a gentle push down a ladder. And if you aren't a submariner, and are on here blogging and talking shit, then get the hell out of here, you don't know what you are talking about.
Jeff Lee is good people, thanks Rob.

5/23/2009 4:49 PM

Blogger J said...

"I can tell you this, there are more people on this Earth who would be glad to get IN his position than there are who would want to get OUT of it."

I'd be interested to see percentages, especially among those poor souls with the ability to get hired into that job.

5/24/2009 12:22 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The core problem in comparing staying in a nuke submarine JO job to the civilian world is that there is very little comparison between those job worlds.

If someone has a low work ethic (and don't even try to tell me that some JOs don't) - or can't adhere to the nuclear "mil-std" when it comes to quality of work - then they're going to get run out of the sub force on a stick. Harsh fact: you don't want it any other way.

Unlike nearly all civilian jobs, on nuclear submarines the failure for performance to extreme, zero-tolerance standards means that everyone dies. So y'might want to cut a little slack to the senior officers for making a sincere effort to get every one of their JOs - without exception - to toe the line.

BTW, that's NO excuse for senior officer screamers, which are clearly in overabundant supply in the sub force. It's a cultural thing, and almost certainly a cult of personality thing with respect to the former nuke-in-chief (God rest his soul)...but it's also a despicable thing.

As long as the sub force clings to assholes, you can expect to lose a lot of good men. The civilian world faces the same problem in its HR decisions daily; e.g., "do we fire the super-competent asshole, or promote him?"

Based on the corporate culture, these decisions go either way on a regular basis...but count me in with the growing crowd that says "fire the asshole." They're not worth the collateral damage.

5/24/2009 7:47 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think some JOs need to sit back and contemplate on what duty they signed up for. I see many good ones in the fleet, but also some who need to seriously contemplate the fact that as a leader, the most important person is not themselves but the person they are leading. I think LT Lee does not get this or gets it wrong. I think he professes to look out for his sailors and 'protect them from the man' but in reality he is hurting them. He is setting them up for failure by not upholding the standards and not being able to see the bigger picture. I know a lot got blamed on his CO for being a screamer, but the CO spent alot of time away from the boat. Can't say for a minute that the CO was correct about this, but if LT Lee was really as good as he professes, why didn't he step up and uphold the standard?

When I read things like this, I am frequently reminded of the Caine Mutiny. The CO got painted as the bad guy throughout but in the end as the lawyer pointed out, it was the disgruntled LT that really poisoned the ship and was really the problem.

5/25/2009 10:13 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

That's some exceptional insight on Lee's leadership traits/ability based on an internet blog started AFTER he left the boat!

Is Miss Cleo teaching at PCO these days?

5/25/2009 4:39 PM

Anonymous Jeff Lee said...

Hi Everyone! Jeff Lee here.

I hadn't seen this post because I've been away for a while. Wow. People seem to have a lot to say about my blog.

First of all, thanks to Joel for linking to my site.

I'm really not concerned that people are calling me whiny, saying that I don't "get it", etc. Or those who say that I will never get a job because of my tainted internet trail. I'm interested in expressing myself and having others do the same. There are plenty of anonymous military bloggers who do the same thing that I do. I'm just not anonymous. And that doesn't bother me.

I'm an officer in the United States Navy. I'm proud of my service, and I will continue to serve proudly until I get out next year. I will never divulge sensitive information. I have opinions and I do have things to say. And unless someone important tells me that I have to shut up, I will continue to say them.

5/25/2009 8:51 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sir, you really need to leave your political moans, gripes and personal concerns in the wardroom. What you're displaying thus far is both short sighted and stupid. You're still in a leadership position Sir. Now, act like it!

5/26/2009 1:03 AM

Anonymous Pig said...

Who the hell makes an anonymous post on a Blog and calls someone "sir"?? It's amazing that we joined the service to protect the civil liberties afforded to us by this great country, but when one of our own uses that liberty within the UCMJ statutes, people tell him to shut up. Sounds like a bunch of people all of a sudden got in way over their intellectual competance in an argument they can't win.

It really is funny to see how many people are so worried about what LT Lee has to say. Two E-3's almost killed a dude in Portsmouth, NH for shits and giggles, and you think LT Lee is making the submarine force look bad?? Get a fucking clue and a dose of reality. 90% of Jeff's blog is non-military. There are assholes selling books that bad-mouth the service, and then get on MSNBC and America-hate all over the place. Why don't we worry about them instead of someone who is proud of their service and pokes fun at the adminstratvie bullshit we were forced to endure on the boat.

Everyone wants to get so highly professional when they feel like their community is being attacked, but on my deployment/shipyards/workups EVERYONE bitched and complained at some point. That includes senior enlisted, DH's and XOs. Take your pot shots at the JOs, and try to blame the status of the force on the JOs. I think it is a cop-out. People join the Navy, do their service, and get out or stay in for life. It is OKAY to want to pursue other avenues of employment. It doesn't mean you are a bad officer/enlisted. I know an ET(nuke) who is getting PhD right now, and a former fellow JO who is in medical school. Another joined the seminary. Another just wanted more time with his children.

And to the previous comment about "political moans"... learn some basic english definitions. Nothing political even graces LT Lee's blog. Go CLEP an english course then come back with a real comment.

5/26/2009 1:19 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

While I disagree with the tone and tenor of "PIG's" comments, I think that he raises a thought worthy of noting.

If we as submariners look ourselves in the mirror, I think we would realize that, while we raise some outstanding engineers (plant operators really), we do not have an equivalent number of good leaders. Why is that? I think that it is because we do not spend time at any point in our career paths training ourselves to lead.

Leadership to me is making those around you feel empowered and responsible for taking care of their men. Some of the JOs suffered under poor leadership and the Force is paying the price.

We need to take a turn on this.

5/27/2009 6:29 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Would love to hear more detailed examples about how JOs are not empowered to take care of their men.

5/27/2009 10:06 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have to disagree with pig's comments. The military should always be apolitical. Don't care whether it's 90 percent of 10 percent political. The ethics rules are pretty clear on this. That's why we are not allowed to attend any sport of political function in uniform. Have you ever observed the Joint Chief's at the State of the Union? They sit through all of the political talk without clapping except for the recognizing of the heros that all President's do in recent history.

There rest of the blog just serves to emphasize that we do have to re-evaluate rules with respect to blogs/twitter/facebook/etc. Where is the line? Tough call sometimes.

5/27/2009 10:12 PM

Anonymous Sense of Humor Intact said...

For the above anon: to repeat, there is nothing 'political' on Jeff Lee's blog.

Have a read...then a good laugh at yourself.

"Lesson learned" (if and only if behavior changes): read fully before making comments on what you claim to have read. It otherwise makes for a fairly stupid moment.

5/27/2009 10:52 PM

Blogger Oz said...

@ 10:12

The ethics rules are simple. You can't tie your politics to your uniform. We're allowed to vote, attend rallies in plainclothes, and put bumper stickers on our cars.

Besides, as has been said, there isn't even anything political on that blog. The worst it does is criticize some of the more troublesome aspects of the Navy. "Hey Shipwreck!" did plenty of that and that guy got a coin from the MCPON and a couple of favorable articles in official Navy newspapers. If the people complaining about this stuff cared half as much about the Navy as they claim they would be accepting the criticism and seeing what they can learn from it rather than trying to shout it down.

5/28/2009 8:23 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would like to echo the request of the post above to provide some good examples of what everyone is referring to.

I have read LT Lee's blog. He has some criticism about checklists but they are just designed to ensure some of the salient points are done or required entries are made in logs. They have never been a substitute for a thinking watchstander. Not sure what his point is on this topic.

5/28/2009 8:36 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Pig, or is it Mr. Pig, When I made the reference to "political moans" I was hinting towards the politics that go on throughout the boat which should remain in the wardroom. That is what I meant. The active proclivity and somewhat hostile dispositions between JOs, DHs the XO and so on, is what I was talking about. Do you understand that you little twit?

Lee has no business discussing his discomforts and possible misfortunes in public. Regardless of rank or rate, it makes us all look bad. Do you see what I'm getting at you little snot nose? Half of the horse shit that does go on while underway really needs to stay in private. It doesn't matter if we're at PD ready to pull in or somewhere in the Pacific at 900' below. Some times we need to keep our mouths shut about who, what, when, and where. Lee clearly never learned that...and maybe you didn't either.

Just try and remember that we have to maintain some sort of God damned professionalism in the eye of the general public. Have you forgotten that Mr. Pig? I begin to wonder.

5/28/2009 10:41 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

anon 10:41:

Sounds like the old wall of silence to shield from the glare of accountability.

Good luck in the next right sizing.

5/28/2009 11:44 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I still notice no one has actually contributed any thoughtful comments on this bad leadership (without finger pointing and accusations). Let's have a good constructive discussion on what you think is wrong.

I'll contribute one. ET1 nuke, very smart guy, good worker, but the smart guy who was quick to point out faults (which is OK if he also proposes a solution). He was bitching about the morning routine, so we made him come up with the solution. He did a very well written point paper to have duty section turnover at the end of the day vice the beginning. He had lots of good reasons. The command bought off on it and we implemented. After about two weeks, everyone HATED it, and we went back. But, the point is propose the solution and I'll bet people will listen. I'll bet that XO you all think is a screamer (I've never really met one, either I've been lucky or they really don't scream) would love to hear your solution how to get those audits/surveillances done in a timely fashion so he doesn't need to hold an audit party at 1800 on a Friday in the Wardroom after giving a dozen warning shots that if you didn't get it done this would happen.

It's easy to be the opposition party, watch the TV every day with the politicans. When in opposition you don't have to have a solution, you just have to blame someone else. Well, a LT in the Navy, if he's doing his job right, should not be in the opposition party. He is part of this chain of command he says is so stupid. He's higher up that 90% of the crew. So for him to say how stuipd the leadership is, is just him calling himself stupid. I'm sure this will draw the ire of many, but deep down you know it is true.

5/29/2009 8:09 AM

Anonymous navyneutron235 said...

just a reminder for everyone to maintain the silent wall about important stuff

the JO's decide to get out and complain about the leadership not because the XO has an audit/surveillence party on a Friday

the JO's get out because shore commands come down to the ship at sea and in port and shit all over the command (read CO/XO/COB and the occaisional DH or Dept) for not having a perfectly ADMINISTRATED audit and surveillence program

sure, the A&S is important, because even though everyone on board is a highly trained and competant operator, mistakes are made because we are still just men... the A&S is part of what the civilian world calls quality control (not to be confused with QA) where for instance, a statistically representative sample of a product is examined for defects... if a problem is found, an investigation of some magnitude occurs to fix the machine or operator,etc that caused a defective product.

the A&S program catches those issues periodically and results in fixes.... the problem is that since every single administrative program on the boat has to be perfect, there is simply not enough time in the day, and when people would rather be spending liberty time with their family, the are on board making doing the A&S party... losing sight of the fact that problems have been caught and fixed, even if the CO hasn't seen the binder yet, or the Div O hasn't routed it yet!

the general complaint out there is not about the chain of command on the boat. in fact, the CoCs that get the most respect on the boats are the ones that tell squadron, tycom, etc to screw off periodically

the complaint is about the intrusive and 100% perfection demands of the shore commands

that complaint comes from DHs and Chiefs... all of whom can drastically shape a JO's perspective as he is simply trying to qualify, stand watch and manage a division

depending on the JO's personality, that cynicism can either wash right off or get internalized... or some combination thereof

ask yourselves this question: what actually needs to be perfect on the ship so that everyone comes home safe and missions are completed

5/29/2009 10:36 AM

Anonymous navyneutron235 said...


answer- QA, SUBSAFE, Navigational Safety, Weapons Proceedures, Nuclear Maintinence and Operation

QAS, CWHS, SSW, etc exist to ensure things are done right through situational understanding of when something could go drastically wrong

everything else, including monitored evolutions, A&S programs, PMS spot checks, etc are part of that periodic quality sampling

the admin for those programs, plus much more trivial admin programs, like training binders, are still all treated as liberty dependent items by the command, because the shore side demands they be perfect, that LDI mentaility trickles down the CoC to the petty officers who maintain the binders, with the LPO over his shoulder, the Chief over his, the DO over his, the DH over his and the XO breathing down everyone's neck, for an admin task that everyone is smart enough to realize WILL NOT KILL ANYONE IF IT IS NOT DONE RIGHT OR ON TIME..... that realization feeds the cynicism

smart operators, in the ER or the cone and JO's all on their first tour tend to make the decision to stay in based on wether or not they can stomach more of the same bullshit... sometimes they make that decision out of necessity (need the medical coverage for family) sometimes out of fear (too institutionalzed already) and sometimes out of low tolerance for bullshit

the submarine force is manned by volunteers from an all volunteer military, yet, the conscript mentaility trickles down from shore side with demands that when weighed against being at home with wife and kids, looks exactly like the low priority bullshit that it is... yet, here we are at the A&S party on a friday

i survived a summer from hell where little mistakes (caught by A&S programs and actual mistakes)here and there were trending towards disaster, so squadron stepped in.... for about a month, I had to call squadron on the phone in port to get permission to pump a bilge.....

that is the extreme... morale (that intangible thing that can feed or detract from esprit de corp that all the old guys keep saying we are lacking) was lower than the previous year in drydock

part of our special supervision was that everye evolution needed a monitor E-7 or above... EVERY evolution.... the binder to track all that rapidly expanded over that month to encompass three 2.5 inch binders..... and adding insult to injuray was the fact that squadron demanded every monitor form be routed through the CoC to the CO within a day of occurrence... and the expectation was that every level of the CoC would make a comment.... and then the rerouting to ensure all the comments were addressed.......

while the above story is an extreme example, the same administrative 0-defect (by that I restate that I mean the paperwork has to be perfect, not necessarily the evolutions monitored) exists in every submarine homeport, along a spectrum... obviously pearl and guam have a different view than groton and norfolk.... but ask around, the mentaility is out there

it drives away gifted officers and enlisted after their first tour because they know they do not have to be treated like kindergartners

i have even seen it drive away 14 year MMs, 11 year Eng's, and 22 year seved CO's.... all of whom had successful careers and tours... the first two were on their way to retirement... what does that say

just ignore the bitching of one JO on the internet... look at the statistics and drop a FOIA request to read JO resignation letters...

there is a problem out there that is not being adequately addressed

5/29/2009 10:36 AM

Anonymous Pig said...

I think that was a pretty accurate description, much less passionate and emotional than many others, definitely including some of my posts. With two months left in the Navy, I have nothing but fond memories because I choose to remember the good ones, however, I can easily drag up some of the harder situations the previous post talked about. As for the blabber mouth breaking the wall who called the Pig a "snot nose", you should have your clearance revoked in a heartbeat. Even when things get bad in the wardroom, they are far from "political", that includes the boat and shore commands. How's that CLEP coming along?

6/02/2009 10:51 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

So here's the question: did HAMPTON have problems because of JO's like him or did the JO's become that way because of HAMPTON?

I'm with the guys above who point out that it's JOs (and Sailors in general) with these kind of attitudes that contribute to the problems. Then it becomes an undamped feedback function.

In summary: what whiny little bitches.

6/06/2009 6:50 PM

Anonymous PHX Skyharbor layover said...

the hampton was the way it was because different JOs reacted different ways

Jeff Lee quite obviously chose the path of cynicism and complaining... which is fine

another one decided it was better to let things slip so that everyone's immediate quality of life was better because things looked right on paper

for JO's go down either the path of extreme cynicism or extreme integrity issues speaks to something going on at higher levels in the command... someone paying too much attention to the wrong, lesser priority stuff => feeding cynics... or an even worse potential problem... abdicating responsibility and knowingly allow some of the type behavior that then emboldens young JOs and enlisted men to keep making the paperwork look right

as for this "new generation of young officers and enlisted," face it, they are here to stay... big navy has rcognized this and embraced a term from the coporate world where they are known as "millenials," post gen-Xers who essentially spent their formative years wired and expectant

when you have an all volunteer force within an all volunteer force, you have to make lemonade with the lemons that come to you... so, for all the old folks out there saying what ammounts to "damn kids these days" should remember that 10, 20 or 30 years ago, the same was being said about them

the mid-grade leaders who will florish today are the one who understand and can work with someone who has high expectations of life being whatever they want it to be

6/07/2009 1:33 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Pig, You're full of shit. It's as simple as that. What kind of a self-centered jackass refers to himself in third person? You're clearly way to wound up, so shut the up already.

One note however, you do realize there is always a certain amount of politics going around on the boat, both between officers regardless of their stature in life & career and enlisted alike.

6/08/2009 11:00 PM

Anonymous pig said...

This is a blog, who refers to themselves as anonymous and doesn't even type in a moniker. Submarines are freaking amazing, blame it all on the JO's and everything will get fixed. Kisses

6/12/2009 3:41 AM

Anonymous happy ex-JO said...

For all those that would like to chalk all JO complaints up to 'whining', you would do well to look at the quality of officers promoted. I've met many outstanding submarine officers that I still look towards as models of leadership. On the other hand, I've met a disturbing number of officers I place no faith in at all. The harsh but true reality is that the navy promotes the best personnel available to it. Some officers stay in because they understand the job is important, and some actually enjoy it. Others stay in because they know they couldn't do any better on the outside world (due to ability, work ethic, etc.). If by our leadership culture, we drive off a significant amount of talented officers, the navy will have no choice but to pick from the smaller talented officer pool, and the remaining dregs.
If we turn a blind eye to the cultural problems of the sub force, we will continue to promote those that have no business in positions of higher authority and further the downward spiral the submarine community has entered.

7/17/2009 6:54 PM

Anonymous Ruth said...

It will not succeed in reality, that's exactly what I think.

9/14/2012 8:50 AM


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