Adventures With Skimmers
This picture of USS Ronald Reagan (CVN 76) pulling into Pearl Harbor yesterday caught my attention:
It got me thinking of my time on a carrier, the Millennium deployment of USS John C. Stennis (CVN 74) as the Submarine Ops guy on the Carrier Group SEVEN staff. While we were in the Arabian Gulf, one of the assigned submarines was tasked to do one of those "special" missions we all know about, the ones where they bring on extra Sailors who eat four meals a day and monopolize the best tables in Crew's Mess between meals. The boat wanted to make some room, so I arranged for them to send some extra nukes over to the carrier to ride for a few weeks. Being the gung-ho Submariners they were, they decided they'd make the best use of their time by earning the Enlisted Surface Warfare Insignia. As I remember, six of the 9 Submariners met that goal within 4 weeks. As they were getting ready to leave, I asked them what they'd remember most, and they said they learned that 1) administrative tasks you routinely see E-5s doing on submarines are done by O-4s on the carrier, and 2) skimmers aren't very bright.
Have you ever had to interact with skimmers on their home turf?
posted by Bubblehead at 10:38 AM
47 Comments:
Brutal...
9/01/2011 10:43 AM
I was in QAI Class with a couple skimmers, here's our conversation:
Bubblehead:"Hi, I am a nuke mechanic, I begged to get this school for like the past 2 years."
Skimmer: "Really? This is standard for people like me, after all I only work on one 4" valve that requires a QAI. Which valve do you work on?"
Bubblehead: "I work on most of them in the engineroom and 10+ systems"
Skimmer: "Wow? Are you getting punished or something"
---------
Went back to the boat and told my Chief, apparently he said this was very typical...
9/01/2011 10:52 AM
Oh, you mean like the skimmer MMCM who thinks his MM2 could find better use of his off duty in port hours by working on divisional equipment. When in fact he's going to the local university at night working on his BSEE, and on off duty weekends coaching soccer or little league when he's not studying.
That's all changed for me now that I'm retired forever. Now, on a daily basis, I interact with folks in my community who have never been out of Utah except on a vacation, or perhaps on a Church mission. Sometimes the questions about ships/submarines, being in the service, or places away from Utah are interesting, and challenging, to put in terms that are understood and appreciated.
I do like it here though, and plan on staying. And at best there are a few Army Reserve and National Guard folks in the community. A couple have recently returned from Afghanistan.
9/01/2011 11:23 AM
Did two years of tender radcon. Despite what the skimmers will try to tell you about, "This is really a submarine command," it's pure skimmer stupidity all the way up to at least the DH and maybe XO.
Think about SCPOs in other divisions who have a difficult time incorporating new PMS into the cyclic schedule, where PO2s off their first boat do it as easily as breathing.
Fire watches who DON'T post watches on the other side of the bulkhead and start fires in the other compartment.
MR1 EOOWs (also SOY that year) who don't understand why a fire in a shore power breaker cable on the pier requires you to deenergize ALL the shore power breakers, then directing overhaul on the STILL LIVE CABLE using a steel pole.
Don't even get me started on the engine room fire we had underway where a CPO literally ran over a female MMFN trying to get out of the space. Brave guy, that one.
On the boats, I had no worries about the guy next to me knowing what to do and doing it when TSHTF. On the tender, I had no such comforting feeling.
I'd go on, but bandwidth is expensive.
9/01/2011 11:37 AM
Served on subs but towards the end of my career spent a little time on several different skimmers which will remain nameless but are well known. My one common observation 'wow, these people are not bright.' I was also surprised by how 'focused' people's responsibilities were. Then I got to spend some time around some US Army personnel, and they made skimmers look like rocket scientists. I guess it's all perspective. It really made me value my submarine experience and the great people I served with!
9/01/2011 12:00 PM
First tour after commissioning. Built a CG. Took it through RefTra. Took it to Vietnam, where we earned a NUC. Bailed out to get back to the boats.
As with anywhere in the navy, there were some great sailors and fine officers. But the gang warfare that went on was appalling; all for my division, screw you. Carried into the wardroom also, where department contended against department and little cooperation was evident. A lot of this goes overboard in a war zone, but the residue and lack of previous cooperation hold back the results even when it's all on the line.
As Electrical Officer I had no sailors and one E-8 ICman that I'd take with me to the boats. As First Lieutenant I can't think of a single deck ape who would make it in the boats. This is a good thread: for all the bitching and whining about the boats that goes on here, it puts perspective on it to compare life in the boats with those riding in gray targets.
9/01/2011 12:15 PM
Rode a nuke skimmer out of San Diego during midshipman days. It's been said before, and well worth saying again, that there are some seriously stupid bastards in the skimmer force. Remember the non-nuke assistant weapons officer there, a LCDR, very unfondly, as he went out of his way to treat me like a piece of crap.
Years later we happened to cross paths in a D.C. area Navy cafeteria...him sitting while I'm walking by, now a LT. He's still a LCDR. I'm wearing a NCM, NAM and NEM. He's still unadorned. Didn't rub anything in, though it was well within my rights.
Even felt kind of sorry for the stupid SOB...after all, TSSBP.
9/01/2011 12:44 PM
Got to play with a destroyer while on a boomer down at Autec shooting torpedoes. We played "target" for them and even swapped over some folks with them. Turned put one of the officers that came over was a classmate of mine from college....small world.
My friend had some interesting comments on the performance of the destroyer while tracking us and at one point mentioned that she had clearly lost contact with us as she had reinitiated her search mode despite us being confined in a small target area.
He then asked about the fire control party that had been maintaining a constant firing point solution on the destroyer and I think he paled a bit when I mentioned that this was just the off-watch bubba that we rounded up to play at fire control party (the NUKES loved to come forward and play fire control party on my boat...we did it so rarely...). I said that this exercise was not worth the trouble of the regular fire control party .... The off watch guys had it down pat!
9/01/2011 12:54 PM
Late in my career I had the opportunity to do a Rad Health Audit on a carrier. Had to be taken aside for lunch in the Master Chief's mess (surprise #1)to indoc me on the way surface pukes do an audit (surprise #2).
9/01/2011 12:57 PM
Spent my last tour at NAVMAC in Millington. 99% Chief and above, 99% percent skimmer. Maybe a dozen guys there who would've been good submariners, 2 or 3 who would've been good Chief's. Those guys seemed to be very narrowly focused, had no idea what the guy next to him was doing, didn't care to know. Different requirements I guess.
FTC(SS) ret.
9/01/2011 1:30 PM
The only regret I ever had accepting a commission as a CWO was that it meant my days as a submariner were over. That said, I worked with a lot of hard working, dedicated engineers on the Enterprise. Sailors will generally work to meet the standards set by their leadership.
9/01/2011 1:57 PM
Back in 2000 I went to the Surface Search and Rescue officer course in Yoko. I'm the only Bubblehead in the class. They start talking about EPIRBS and said that when the ship starts to sink you take it off the bulkhead and throw it out in the water. So I ask keeping my face straight " So let me get this staight. This EPIRB thing when it's turned on sends a signal to a satelite and tells it where the EPIRB is with a few feet using inputs from some other satelite?" And they smile and nod at me as if they were proud I could figure that out all on my own. To which I respond. "Throw it overboard? I'm going to duct tape that thing to my forehead!." No laughs, nothing... it was amazing.
FTB4EVR/LCDRL
9/01/2011 2:16 PM
Finding out what a "shiny" piper and a "dirty" piper was blew my mind...
9/01/2011 2:19 PM
*sigh* EPIRB's... the bane of my existence these days. :(
We still get them going off along the coast of Florida on 121.5Mhz, and have to go hunt them down when people hear them going off.
Since they are no longer sold at that frequency (the new ones are at 406Mhz and do satellite notification) they are starting to come around less and less frequently, but we have seen some old batteries that still have just enough juice to fire off a signal.
9/01/2011 3:03 PM
Joel,
Didn't we shoot you as the rogue sub during RIMPAC 2000 that year? I remember a shot of something on everyone's computer backgrounds.
9/01/2011 3:38 PM
God forbid you walk onto the tender to by a soda during refit in Holy Loch with a dirty uniform, it got to be that only the division supply parts guy would conduct all business on the tender, and then people on the tender seemed to forget they were a sub tender so there job was to serve the needs of the sub, thats my 2 cents
9/01/2011 3:41 PM
As an EM, I was routinely in ratty dungarees unless there was an inspection or VIP showing up. We were tied up to the tender in San Diego and the pinheads on cattle crossing duty would try to give me an inspection each time I crossed their brow. They woudl write a chit or call the boat to have the COB come get me. The XO finally got tired of hearing about it and went to the tender OOD and reamed him out - something about "this guy actually has a job to do." Never bothered again.
9/01/2011 4:44 PM
Anon 9/01/2011 4:44 PM
Reminded me of story...
We were tied up to the tender in San Diego and in an ORSE workup. I had the bad luck of having a hole in the collar of my t-shirt when I boarded the tender and the chief standing OOD start to rip me a new ass.
About 20 seconds in, Subron 5 comes aboard, walks over to me, puts his arm around my shoulder and says “How are things going PO XXXX?” (Did I mention that I had just sat down in the wardroom on the boat with him a day or two before for Q&A during the workup?)
Off we walked with one pissed off skimmer chief standing there. (-; About halfway down the tender, we parted ways with nothing said other than stuff related to the ORSE workup and pleasantries
To this day I think he was just bailing out one of his own...and much appreciated I must add.
Old Chief from the dark ages
Jerry
9/01/2011 6:11 PM
After active duty, I spent several years in the Skimmer reserves aboard the USS Paul Revere.
Skimmers aren't stupid. The Skimmer Navy is different. I wouldn't even say that Skimmer officers are stupider, just unbelievably more unskilled and obnoxious than Sub officers. It was a big problem for me. I could barely stand Sub officers, as it was.
I found my best course of action was never to do or say anything unless in response to a direct order and never show true feelings. The gold braids thought I was squared away. If sailors behaved that way on subs, they'd all be on the bottom of the ocean.
9/01/2011 6:33 PM
I got to see how they trained for and handled a fire once.
I was on the Hunley in Norfolk getting something from the supply shack when they called away a fire. Heads popped up and they all left rather smartly leaving Fred and myself standing there wondering WTF?.
We look around and we see some smoke coming from a hatch on the opposite side of the compartment.
Well.. Fred and I went to check it out. Stupid I know, but you know how it is, training kicked in and we went TO the fire.
Yep. It was a fire. In a trashcan. Nice one too.
Fred walks over to the desk beside it and RIPS the clear 1/4 inch plastic desk cover off and places it over the can effectivly smothering it.
We then sat down and observed.
About FIVE minutes later we have someone come in with a OBA and charged firehose. He is followed with a whole TEAM of people suited up and ready to put out this fire.
We asked if they were the reflash watch.
Well, the sh*t hit the fan and they wanted to know who the heck we thought we were. They were actually pissed off at us. We asked if we had interrupted a drill and they told us that "No, that was an actual fire. We could have been killed"
We just shook our heads and told them to monitor and report as we walked around them and left.
The bad thing was we got in touble because we did not bring the part back we needed as they secured the supply shack due to the fire.
9/01/2011 7:38 PM
Tied up in Toulon in the only liberty port I got on a boomer and the ship across from us was some brand new amphib ship. Big ass amphib. Two stories of the skimmers...
Story #1
I decide to be nice to E-div for humping shore power onboard with no french translators (I proved that MATH is universal...) so I go onboard the amphib to buy some sodas. Find sodas and realize I lacked anything to bring them back to the sub. Poke my head into a shop and ask the nearest Petty Officer if they have a bag I can use to carry the sodas back to the sub...BIG mistake! Next thing I know everyone in the shop is running around yelling to get the LT a garbage bag for the sodas! Good grief guys...I forgot how the skimmers operated - on a sub I would have been told where the bags were and I would have gotten them myself!! E-div pissed themselves laughing when they heard the story!
Story #2
Same liberty port...standing SDO and get a call from the amphib. Some LCDR in their engineering plant looking for 100K gallons of water that they have misplaced, and by the way did we accidentally send this over to the sub (they were providing hotel services). I burst out laughing and informed the LCDR that if they had sent us 100K gallons of water we would be having this conversation in person since the sub would have sunk at the pier and I would be topside surveying the damage!! He was not amused.
Anyway he called back an hour later and told me that they found the missing water in their bilges....I laughed at it all and hung up. I don't think he appreciated my humor!!
9/01/2011 8:22 PM
As a QM2(SS) during an SRA in the mid 80's, the Nav signed me up for Safe Ship Handling school at 32nd street in San Diego because he knew one of the instructors.
The next junior guy besides me was three Master Chiefs. The rest were WO's and JO's.
The first few days was a self-paced rules of the road course which I finished in two days.
After everyone else caught up, we went in to the simulator (which was a lot cooler than anything we had). Myself and a BMCM teamed up and the other guys were teasing him.
By the end of the third day, everyone wanted to be my partner! Twin screw, single screw, big, small, it didn't matter. I could get it out of the harbor, back in and pierside everytime.
The second week was more of the same and included UNREP's. Our final consisted of a ROR test and passing some team sim scenarios. The lead instructor (a LCDR) said he was putting a LT with me and told me to get him through this. We passed and he got his certificate.
I was #3 in the class out of 16 and it earned me a skimmer Letter of Appreciation or something like that. It's in the closet someplace, I should find it.
Got back to the boat just in time to field day and wax decks!
Jim C.
Retired ANAV
9/01/2011 9:05 PM
All I have to say is if you think skimmers are bad, try working with the Army on an IA.
9/01/2011 9:17 PM
F/A Sailor
The "Shiny Pipe" mechanics and "Dirty pipe" mechanics is still alive and true for the skimmers. Ridiculously funny for the nukes.
I would bet on my non-nucs over a skimmer nuc any day of the week. Granted they probably have one or two decent sailors in a division, but shipmate, if you ever see me or someone running to a fire, I suggest you follow.
Pride runs deep
9/01/2011 9:24 PM
Speaking of gross incompetence in a big deck skimmer fire:
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2011/08/navy-report-blasts-crews-response-to-amphib-fire-080711/
Initial response to the 3:40 a.m. report of white smoke in the fo’c’sle of the ship, moored at Joint Expeditionary Base Little Creek-Fort Story, Va., for a pierside maintenance availability, was sluggish; the officer of the deck’s casualty announcement didn’t go out until 4:06, and the officer didn’t provide the fire’s location.
9/01/2011 9:28 PM
So I was serving as the Sub-Rep on a carrier.
situation: fire is announce...this is not a drill. I look around and try to go running towards. Told to sit down by a chief "sit down, we have people who do that". I found it ridiculous.
Only 2 small fires on the subs I have been on, but from my experience in the actual fires: 10 CO2 extiguishers in <2 min and an XO in underwear and a TLD, SCBA, and carrying a CO2...amped up as anything; second one 2 hoses presurized in <3 minutes and one EDMC double weilding nozzles for a trashcan fire (EDMC was unhappy he didnt get to use both because of the 5 or 6 CO2 extinguishers that were there already).
Never been with a big fire on a sub, but I'll be running toward if we get one. Not to say I buy the Ship, shipmate, self on everything; but during a casualty I'm saving the ship or going down with it.
9/01/2011 9:31 PM
Started working under schoolhouse contract with the skimmers in early '08.
Common question I get asked #1:
"Where can I find Notice to Mariners corrections for cancelled charts?"
Really?
Common question I get asked #2:
"How do you use the WRN-6 to count down a turn?"
Um...WHAT? (I'm not kidding, most have no idea)
Jim C, very much appreciate your comments about their shiphandling skills as I see the same thing almost every day. It's complicated to them because most of them MAKE it complicated.
It's not that we're any smarter than them, it's just....well, yeah, we ARE smarter than them.
9/02/2011 3:16 AM
We pulled into Hong Kong as the Stennis was leaving. Me and another 2nd class were sent to relieve their watch at the little liason office there. There was a Lt. and a Chief in there, the Lt. did not believe that he was supposed to turn over to an STS2 and a YN2. Took forever for the chief to explain that "them sub guys do it different, ain't got enough senior people to do the important jobs"...Important jobs being sitting in an office and watching really bad tv for 4 hours.
9/02/2011 7:29 AM
Went directly to CAV42 out of boot camp after my request for Sub School was denied. As an E2 and being on the bottom of the food chain and every other chain one can think of I got to really, really hate this carrier. The main reason being was the Master at Arms. The other reason being was, I felt that no matter what you did it did not matter in the everyday scheme of things. Every department had to send one man to MAA duty for (3) months on board. The little schooling they got was probably this: Harass the hell out of all E5's and below for any infraction however slight it may be. If they happen to be E3 or E2's write them up...As you can imagine chiefs skated, as did the wardroom, as they should. But as an E2 looking up the view was not too rosy.
When I finally got my orders to Sub School and left the ship in Naples, I virtually danced off the ship, much to the chagrin of the Bosun mates on the afterbrow.. Glad to see that ship in my rearview mirror.
9/02/2011 8:42 AM
After EM-A school, I was sent to an AE to wait for my nuke school class to convene. One day I watched an EMFN chase a senior BM2 all round the main deck with a 4 foot piece of electrical cable, threatening to shock him. The BM2 in terror was running for his life. They don't call them "deck apes" for nothing.
ex-EM1(SS)
9/02/2011 9:05 AM
I just want to thank you Joel for putting this up there. I really didn't have any interaction with the surface fleet. But I am getting a ton of laughs out of this thread....
My view from the evap...
9/02/2011 12:04 PM
Well, I married one; but we were both out of the Navy before we met
9/02/2011 12:37 PM
Last ship I was on was a skimmer, USS Savannah AOR-4. Had a fire in the boiler room- a fuel oil gasket let loose under the boiler, spraying about 50 gpm at the boiler. About 100 yds outside sea buoy 1, the dividing line between reporting it to the CG and everyone else in the world, and keeping it within the Navy. DIW, dropped anchor outside the shipping lane; fire was out in under two minutes.
Immediately after the boilers were back online, the CO called the crew to quarters, and awarded three Navy Coms to the heroes of the day, all PO3's if I remember correctly. Well deserved Navy Coms.
Skimmers can react to casaualties just as well as submariners. Takes training and that old fashioned esprit de corps. Got to be inversted in what you'ere doing.
As far as leadership goes, I'd put any skimmer BM2 up against any submarine CPO in a conteset of pure leadership skills. The submarine Chief is leading men who are for the most part self motivated in jobs that they picked, for better or worse. The BM2 is getting people to chip and scrape, and handle lines, and do all kinds of other drudge work in all kinds of weather conditions (something submariners generally don't deal with), and he's doing it with people who want to be doing anything else. Deck division is a stop on the way to something else, or a dead end for the truly less able. To be honest, I haven't seen many submariners who could handle a skimmer deck division. Different type of leadership. Different types of people.
9/02/2011 2:52 PM
Is that you Mulligan?
9/02/2011 7:38 PM
With the death of the CGNs, surface nuke officers lost that esprit de corps you see with the sub o-gang.
9/02/2011 9:44 PM
You can take an above average enlisted submariner (me), put butter bars on my collar, and I'll qualify watch officer on a carrier in four months. Three years after I commissioned, I was the sea and anchor (maneuvering watch) OOD on a carrier launching airstrikes over Iraq. I never thought I was particularly gifted, but everything is relative. Now I'm an O-4 and get to be in charge of 80 people.
The surface world is a multiple layered union-like organization where no one really owns anything. Show some ownership and you get put in charge.
9/02/2011 9:54 PM
Quote - Anon 9/02/2011 2:52 PM
... Different type of leadership. Different types of people. - End Quote
Must agree with this one to a degree. Especially this last sentence.
My first duty station out of boot camp was a Destroyer homeported San Diego. Served there for my first two years on the deck force; chipping paint, boat coxn, etc., WESTPAC, local ops. First Loader on 3"50 gun mount. Boatswains Mate of the Watch. Headed for BM3 when a school caught me that landed me in airdales for a few years.
I sincerely believe those two years were critical in my development, and to this day believe that every young enlisted man should have this exposure before any school. Some may not agree with that last.
9/03/2011 9:18 AM
"skimmer, USS Savannah AOR-4"
Well said. I also surfaced from SSN's and went to Destroyers. It was a great Navy and I disagree with most of what has been said.
EMCM(SW/SS)
9/03/2011 11:15 AM
Rode a skimmer into the Black Sea a thousand years ago, was in shock the majority of my time on board. Example, the sonar chief was getting a qual checkout from the only chief on board I could have a conversation with, the gas turbine master chief. The st chief was having problems with hydraulics and particularly accumulators. I grabbed his pen and paper and drew an accumulator and explained about tail rods and air pressure, standard stuff. The guy looked at me and asked "how come you know so much about my ship?". My jaw hit the table top. The Master Chief smiled at me and said he'd take it from there, I left... Really made me appreciate the boats.
9/03/2011 12:49 PM
Let's face it, skimmers are good, even great, at what they do, but...they just aren't as good as submariners!
Just like the world needs poor people, the Navy needs skimmers. That doctor who graduated 500th in a class of 500 needs to practice medicine somewhere...presto, poor people get medical care. Everyone needs to feed!
9/04/2011 8:42 PM
Back in my enlisted days, I did a half day course on Treasure Island with skimmers.. Heat Stress Monitoring..
We spent over an hour as they tried to figure out why 2 readings, 25 minutes apart (in an open air classroom) didn't come up with the same reading. The BTs and BM's were fighting mad that it didn't read the same... Most were 15 year 1st classes or more.. My 4.5 yr 1st class crow raised my hand, asked the instructor if the readings, although not the same, were well within stay time limits. When he mentioned that they were, I subsequently stated "Then why in the f*** are we arguing about these numbers?"
I was not popular amongst the attendees or the LCDR instructor, who said he was the Navy's HSM guru..
9/06/2011 9:16 AM
I did 7 years in the boats and my final 3 years on a skimmer, the Vinson. Night and day. However, I did see the best shiphandling of my Navy career on the Vinson. As an E5 QM, I was used to doing MOVORDS, etc. But I was told it took and E9 to do it on a skimmer, until one day in Hong Kong, he came back abord blind drunk and I had to do all the things I used to do. Took me only an hour to prep for underway brief, send the MOVORD message, etc. I ended up doing it for the rest of the cruise. That QMCM hated my guts, especially when I was tasked to train all the JO's in celestial navigation and was removed from the watchbill. He wanted to do it and his argument was that I knew nothing about a sextant. My fix ended up being within 200 yards and his was more than a mile off. The skimmer though soured me on the Navy, especially since the QM rate went away.
9/07/2011 11:29 AM
...MM1/SS here, was two years on tenders in Italy as Submarine Mechanical Repairs Planner, and the only in-theater O2 Clean System Worker's Instructor after my kidney's stones got me medically disqualified from Submarine Duty.... and was laughing and shaking my head the entire two years after seeing the things surface people do... oh well... not everyone can be a submariner. They wanted me to qualified EWS and I said "why?" I have my Dolphins and five NECs, I could teach you something. Anyway I was leaving the Navy after that tour... they were not happy with me, but they needed me, so they let me alone.
9/11/2011 10:44 PM
ESWS is 4 weeks? Only riders and gun-deckers can make that goal.
9/17/2011 11:15 AM
The reality is skimmers are not that good at there jobs. I spent 3 years on a LHD and I can attest to the lack of knowledge and skills. For example DC onboard a submarine is everyones responsibility onboard a surface ship the persuming attitude is let the DC's/HT's figure it out. Im glad I left I served with Marines and they are far superior to any skimmer.
We as submariners are used to improvising to get things done.
9/22/2011 9:45 PM
Pretty helpful data, thanks so much for this article.
10/01/2011 11:27 AM
As one of those guys who lack sub etiquette, wear different uniforms, eat 4 meals a day and become best friends with the galley workers (ha), the biggest difference I've noticed is that everyone in the sub community elects to be there, and takes pride in doing all jobs while underway, whereas surface guys are in general a lot less intelligent and regard most shipboard duties for their respective rates.
11/18/2012 6:26 PM
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