Spring 2013 Undersea Warfare Magazine Out
The long-awaited Spring 2013 issue of Undersea Warfare magazine is posted. Several good articles on the submarine forces of our Pacific allies.
Update 1555 19 July: Also in the news today, RADM Breckenridge defends SSBN force level requirements, and Reuters has a story about what my old boat USS Jimmy Carter (SSN 23) may or may not be doing in the wake of recent interest in the NSA.
Update 0940 20 July: Some boats are experimenting with 8 hour watches. What do you think of the idea? Personally, back in my coffee-drinking days, I only had a 6 hour bladder, so I would have definitely needed a short relief to get through 8 hours.
posted by Bubblehead at 11:20 AM
44 Comments:
There's also a shitty article about firefighting in EOH that essentially says a better trained crew than the Miami would have saved the ship.
Newsflash: Compartment gets blacked out with smoke in 2 minutes or less. Even the NSTM 555 says so. The inability to find the source of the fire through thick smoke is what ultimately led to losing the ship. I don't know where they pulled 15 minutes as a 'good' metric from.
There are two types of shipboard fires: those that get put out in 1 minute or less, or those that burn for 12 hours.
7/19/2013 11:36 AM
The firefighting article smells like someone was doing some college project. However, it clearly shows that you can cycle the hell out of the crew, and in spite of that get results. Great job, 175 drill events from July to November of 2012 at all hours of the night. Bet the crew is becoming afraid to throw in the towel, as if this is the way your treated when your not screwed up only imagine what failing would bring.
7/19/2013 12:21 PM
The sad thing is this JO probably got a COM for it and is now a coveted Golden Boy.
7/19/2013 1:12 PM
A submarine fire study conducted by the Navy Research Lab in the 1980s (?) produced (for me) some frightening results of what happened when a fire broke out in an enclosed environment. My two biggest take aways were: 1. prevention of fires had to be a top priority and 2. the immediate response to a fire or a casualty that could lead to a fire was critical. Set and maintain high standards for cleanliness and housekeeping programs, and emphasis on immediate response - it was OK to allow the crew to win by not growing (or even starting the fire) if their immediate response was good.
7/19/2013 2:08 PM
Ship's force in the shipyard usually loses a lot of proficiency at firefighting. It's easy to get lulled into a false sense of security. Still, a purposefully set fire was outside the scope of foreseeability. I don't think there's a crew out there that could've stopped that fire in time without an incredible amount of luck. 175 drill events will improve your chances, but even a highly disciplined crew would've had a hard time stopping events on Miami.
7/19/2013 6:43 PM
The shipyard commander was a skimmer. How and why can he have been faultless? If the arson had occurred at EB, the government would have sued the shipyard for lax security and contracting practices; and prevailed to taxpayers' relief.
Exactly how does the naval shipyard commander emerge faultless, pray tell? You do not know? http://aquilinefocus.blogspot.com/2013/03/ssn-775-to-be-nicknamed-uss-midol.html
7/19/2013 7:30 PM
A moonpool. In a submarine. Seriously??!
7/20/2013 4:35 AM
While it might not be the "Moon pool" like on the Glomar Explorer the JC does have a huge section that houses some pretty cool toys. Here is a link that does a fairly good job of describing it.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/ssn-23.htm
7/20/2013 2:22 PM
I'm a LT and I want to punch the DCA who wrote that article in the dick. The information could have been presented more effectively without the condescension. Dickpunch for you!
7/20/2013 11:27 PM
8 hour watches. Assuming 00-08, 08-16, 16-00.
Do you shift to 3 meals a day, or does a lucky set of off-watch guys get waken up to relieve the watch for chow?
Drill sets? Do you run your drills on the 08-16 watch only? Or are drills now run randomly at any hour of the day? The same with formal training? Field Day?Otherwise the guys on the 08-16 are on watch for all the stuff while the other 2 sections get boned...constantly.
EOH fire article: Exactly how do you plan for Arson? If some jack-hole is intent on burning down your boat, you aren't going to stop that (short of an armed watch in every space). 15 minutes? I've seen the results of a simple motor going. No fire, just smoke. It took less than 90 seconds from the time the motor in the ER burned out to when we had a significant level of smoke on the mess decks (688 class). If your planning on 15 minutes, your planning to fail.
But 175 specific Fire Drills in a 5 month period? That's more than 1 per day including weekends. I'd love to see a Morale Assessment on your boat (as if being in the shipyard wasn't already a morale killer).
7/21/2013 12:43 AM
^^^ How do you plan for an Arson???^^
How about some ownership of your boat and don't let the shipyard stage large amounts of flammable material inside the ship!!!
7/21/2013 7:47 AM
^ you have no real concept of what boat life is like in a shipyard.
7/21/2013 9:06 AM
"The shipyard commander was a skimmer. How and why can he have been faultless?"
As reported in the New London Day, USS Jack (SSN-605) inadvertently submerged while running in what they thought was a surfaced condition in the late 1980s. An investigation run by the squadron (and signed by the Commodore) found the CO blameless. You read that right, it found the CO blameless, basically because he had been in command for only about a month.
That seems fair, because surfacing and diving isn't covered at submarine school until after muster on the first day of class.
Some people at the squadron thought the CO had been found blameless because he and the Commodore shared a certain religious affiliation. But the bizarre result wasn't surprising, coming from one of the least popular Commodores in the history of the Submarine Force.
7/21/2013 9:54 AM
The 175 "drills" were code-reds run by the SDO/DCPO/EDO/EDPO. Basically, the guy would put a blinking red light somewhere and time how fast it took the SRW/BDW to get a fire extinguisher on it.
That is non-intrusive to the crew and doesn't cycle anyone.
What this did is make the SRW/BDW actually rove their watchstations with a suspicious eye inbetween log sets.
Still, anything more than 2 minutes and the boat will burn down. The Newport News DCA should've read the NSTM 555 instead of admittedly picking 15 minutes out of a hat.
7/21/2013 11:38 AM
LT., sir. Please punch him in the dick for me, too. The guy appears, by the tone of the article, to be a self-important asshole.
Ask the guys who were on the USS Bonefish how quick a fire can get out of hand. Ask them if all of the drills in the world can prepare you for immediate blackout, and the following chaos. I knew some of those guys. They were not incompetent or stupid. That was a fire that got hot fast.
More importantly, ask those guys how fast Squadron stepped on the crew's necks to save their own negligent asses.
7/22/2013 5:13 AM
Looks like USNA '96, one of the worst classes ever produced, is taking command. Good luck!
7/22/2013 8:07 AM
On the 8-hr watches question: NAVMED has known for years just how utterly fucked up 3-section six-hour watches are. Just dumber than shit. Ignoring the human bodies natural circadian rhythms is the kind of thing that could make one grow to have enormous disrespect for the so-called brilliant minds that run the submarine Navy.
Net-net: 30 fucking years late...and a dollar short.
7/22/2013 6:41 PM
So far, out the in the pac, a couple boats are doing the 8-hour watches. They eat, stand 4 hours, get a half out 'snack', then 4 more hours. I understand the idea behind it, but if you are stuck in one place (ie not being able to get up and rove around) it has to absolutely horrible. I couldn't imagine standing 8 hours of sonar straight, listening to the soothing sounds of the ocean. We have enough people falling asleep as it it. And no antics to keep us awake on a VA-class being stuck in control. -sts2
7/22/2013 7:47 PM
dardar the submarian:
You sir, are the asshole. Nothing in that article was self-important. LT Guthmann was took a task and ran with it as DCA. You can see from the article than NNS is a well run ship - they see a problem (unfortunately pointed out by arson) and look for ways to solve it. Perhaps you missed they part where they have non-collapsible reel hoses instead of collapseable ones? That is a change the ship implemented that was not called for by the SY- but it improved overall response. I hope the rest of the boats in the yards have implemented this.
7/22/2013 8:09 PM
"And no antics to keep us awake on a VA-class being stuck in control."
It's about time you gents are introduced to the concept of professionalism.
And for the rest of you non-hackers, get some time on the pond standing Port and Starboard for 3 months at a time just to return to port to fix what's broke and do it again.
7/22/2013 9:15 PM
"dardar the submarian:
You sir, are the asshole. Nothing in that article was self-important. LT Guthmann was took a task and ran with it as DCA. You can see from the article than NNS is a well run ship - they see a problem (unfortunately pointed out by arson) and look for ways to solve it. Perhaps you missed they part where they have non-collapsible reel hoses instead of collapseable ones? That is a change the ship implemented that was not called for by the SY- but it improved overall response. I hope the rest of the boats in the yards have implemented this. "
The Miami report called for non-collapsible hoses (among other equipment shortfalls discovered in the fire, like the fact that incandescent battle lanterns don't work through smoke), but the asshole DCA on the NNS made it sound like it was his idea.
The problem from the Miami arson was NOT crew training, which is what this stupid article implies. The crew fought the fire for 11 hours, although you wouldn't know it from the public media reports. The problem was the fact that all the DC gear is removed and the shipyard practice is to replace it with 4 EAB manifolds and hoses that don't meet water pressure requirements that the SY firefighters have.
If you think you can find the source of a fire in SR1 when smoke prevents you from moving past the galley in under 2 minutes, I have a bridge to sell you. But we can all rest easy that the sailors on the NNS can find a blinking light in under 15 min with no smoke.
7/22/2013 10:26 PM
^^^^^
They were taught and expected to actually rove their watch station and not hang out topside where it was nicer weather? Crazy expectation, I know.
How many cascon units are they installing today and what comms with the topside watches do they have?
There are many things that there are still open answers to that would be asked by any senior supervisory watch with any experience. Don't jive for me.
hagar
7/23/2013 1:31 AM
Hey defensive MIAMI sailors.....
Why don't you try patting NNS on the back for at least trying to take ownership and prevent losing their ship like you did.
Code Reds are a great way to encourage a roving watchstander to actually rove and look around.
7/23/2013 4:08 AM
Anon @9:15 PM:
Fuck you and your Port & Starboard.
That is all.
7/23/2013 9:13 AM
The BDW was doing his required 30 min topside check. It's moot anyway because if he was roving FCLL or FCUL at the time, the same result would've happened.
Of course the penny pinchers won't look at in hull conditions during EOH, either. Guy walks around for 4 hours in an environment where the shipyard workers are all wearing masks. It gets up to 100 deg in there and no one cares.
The problem with the NNS article isn't that they did drills to improve; it's that it implies the Miami crew was poorly trained while simultaneously using an inadequate metric (15 min and no simulated smoke) to judge if the crew could save the ship.
The CO of Miami kept his job because the crew was well trained and following regulations. There just were a lot of false assumptions that existed and clearly still exist.
7/23/2013 10:14 AM
"On the 8-hr watches question: NAVMED has known for years just how utterly fucked up 3-section six-hour watches are. Just dumber than shit. Ignoring the human bodies natural circadian rhythms is the kind of thing that could make one grow to have enormous disrespect for the so-called brilliant minds that run the submarine Navy.
Net-net: 30 fucking years late...and a dollar short."
The sub force has experimented with 80 hour watches since the 90s.
Six hours is the happy medium between alertness and allowing time for the crew to sleep. Four hours and no one will sleep adequately at all; 8 hours and you lose all focus on watch.
Eight hours would be more efficient in terms of having more off-watch time (fewer watch turnovers over the course of a week). However, it would be very difficult for panel operators to stay attentive for 8 hours. Plus you have to have the off-going section relieve for 30 minutes for a mid-watch snack, which is inefficient in itself.
Sometimes, the things the sub force does make sense. With bare-bones crews, I don't know how you could do anything but 6 hours.
7/23/2013 9:56 PM
So, anon at 10:14, what accelerant did said painter use that a BDW could not detect on the boat that burned long enough to light aluminum on fire? Please do share. I do assume that's how the fire spread from the stateroom.
Having spent ALL of my yard time as a BDW/DCPO I have a different view of what happened.
I'm not supposing, how is/was this offered by the crew? Magic don't happen during a face check by a BDW appearing topside for a check on the topside watch.
hagar
7/24/2013 2:53 AM
"However, it would be very difficult for panel operators to stay attentive for 8 hours."
Horsecock. How attentive are they with their circadian rhythms blown out by 'living' an 18-hr day?
Such bullshit...and for so damned long. It at least brings some small, sad sense of 'progress' to see that the Navy board of geniuses is at least trying an 8-hr watch.
7/24/2013 8:20 AM
Circadian Rythms???
3 weeks of ORSE workup doing the Vulcan Death Watch has amply demonstrated that Submariners don't have that. Along with a large "personal space." Or much tolerance for morons.
Still doesn't answer how they deal with Drills or training with an 8 hour schedule. If your always doing your drills on the day shift (to avoid screwing up the crews Circadian Rythms don't ya know) your kind of boned when the fire happens on the midwatch and 1/2 of your DC Team (the day watch) is clueless because their always "on watch" for the drill. Having to hang out for 4 hours after watch just to let the other section "snack?" Isn't that nice.
An 8 hour Night watch, followed by 4 hours of whatever so you can relieve the watch(if you did a detailed cleanup for a few of those hours and got rid of formal 'Field Days' that might be helpful) Then your up for a few more hours because the XO is running some drills, and now the Dept Head wants to get training done on his 4 hour break before he re-relives the OOD for a snack and now your left with about 4 hours to sleep before you start it all over again.
But that wont screw up your Rhythm.
7/24/2013 4:47 PM
The CO of the Undersea Medical Research Center briefed the Groton Submarine League chapter (Nautilus Chapter) on the eight hour watch study. Part of the rotation is to insure that there is one eight hour period when everyone is up so that training, etc. may take place. When the watch is eight hours long they found that a short break was required around the four hour mark for head calls, general relaxation, etc. for about fifteen to twenty minutes. There is also an 8,4,4,8 variant of the eight hour watch that seemed successful. The final study should be out some time in the fall. Since I stood the six hour watch sequence (sometimes P&S), I don't know if I could do the eight hour watch but the studies show that all watchstanders are more alert on that rotation.
7/24/2013 7:41 PM
^^^^ wtfdetc
Since everyone else (but oldtimers) seem to understand, what exactly do modern submariners find wrong about 4 hour watches? That's what many of us stood in the 70s?
We had zero circadian problems and plenty of time to drill when the full crew was awake and available.
Rich Hassel
7/25/2013 12:54 PM
"I don't know if I could do the eight hour watch but the studies show that all watchstanders are more alert on that rotation."
That must come as a real shock to the "your" (it's "you're," moron) king above. Sucks to be stupid.
7/25/2013 4:25 PM
WRT 8 hour watches......what about meals?
7/26/2013 4:01 AM
For the 8 hour watches the sections are shifted on the weekend, either weekly or every 2 weeks, so that you don't have the same section standing the same watch the whole underway. This addresses the concerns about only running drills on one section the entire underway. This is done by dogging the midwatch (or any other watch for that matter) in the 8,4,4,8 manner discussed above.
I agree 8 hours is a long time to be on watch for those stations that don't get to rove and are stucking looking at the same panel. Hell I think it would be a long time to be on the CONN at PD on station.
I also agree that come ORSE workup (which theoretically shouldn't exsist since they aren't supposed to be scheduled anymore) this either removes 44466 from the mix or those are done and completely screw up the rotation.
As with everything there are pros and cons to the situation. I believe there would only be 3 meals a day (at turnover) which would save the Chop some money and help pay for Obamacare;) (which we all know is the reason why this is being done).
-Sub Officer
7/26/2013 4:19 AM
Speaking of Obama: "Obama Threatens Veto of Religious Freedom for Military"
7/26/2013 5:29 AM
"As with everything there are pros and cons to the situation. I believe there would only be 3 meals a day (at turnover) which would save the Chop some money and help pay for Obamacare;) (which we all know is the reason why this is being done)."
One fewer turnover/meal/cleanup/tour a day gives the crew another 1-1.5 hours to do something else (e.g. training, collateral duties, R&R, whatever). That adds up and can be a godsend.
7/26/2013 12:03 PM
I doubt you can really get rid of meals. A meal every 8 hours is a weird eating schedule that nobody does at home. I don't think most people would welcome a meal schedule of 0800, 1600, 0000. My guess is that the day watch would start getting hungry as shit about 1400, and its not like there are tons of readily available snacks in the galley underway (unless you like bug juice and crackers).
7/27/2013 10:02 AM
^^^^
Who ever said the watch bill would be 00-08, 08-16, 16-24??
How about 22-06, 06-14, & 14-22? That would make a better eating schedule with meals at 06, 14, and 22. Maybe a CS goes around with snacks half way through the watch?
7/27/2013 12:16 PM
^^^ Jump Back !!! ^^^
Eating "Snacks" in the Engineroom? Rickover is rolling over again!
7/27/2013 7:51 PM
^^^^^ Grilled cheeses and playing spades on the tophat in the tunnel was much better and it was warm in the winter.
Yup.
7/27/2013 11:13 PM
Breakfast at 5 then lunch at 1300 to relieve by 6/1400? No frigging way. No eating aft of the door, so snacks are out...one crew, one screw.
I would rather do 4 on, 8 off the way they did during WWII. On watch or off. Four hour watch isn't too painful (even the mid) and you can choose to be up at a mealtime or grab a sandwich and hit the bunk if you are on a watch that ends at 0800/2000. The rest are pretty easy to manage for food. For CPS - clean the boat w/ off-going guys for an hour before breakfast and dinner. Training or drills/evolutions for 2-3 hours after the 4-8 or 16-20. Opportunity for 4-5 down between most watches, and a solid chance for 7 after the evening watch
7/28/2013 3:26 AM
I think the routine onboard a fast boat is so fractured by drills, training, and maintenance that schedule has little real impact on watchstation awareness. Seems like there are some good tools for risk management out there now that could help on the fire risk. Most of the tools and concepts in PSM, RMP, and aviation have roots in Subsafe and Navy Nuke Power, but industry has gone beyond these in recent years. ISA and ISO have some relevant standards for Functional Safety that could be adopted by submariners, with enlisted nukes being probably the best resources to contribute and build programs that work.
7/28/2013 8:06 AM
Did boats in WWII do extensive pre- and post-watch tours? Did they do 30 min pre-watch briefs when piddling around in the NBOAs? If not, then going back to the WWII 4-hour watch rotation just isn't possible.
Also, if you think you'll sleep 4 hours every watch rotation, you've got another thing coming. I had an old-time chief lament about how oncoming time used to be sacred back in the day, and now it's just another time to do drills and training.
With 4 hour watches, the boat will eventually go to sleeping hours between 2200-0500 like surface ships do. The rest of it will be filled with drills and training, so every third day you might get 7 hours down. The COs who don't do that will get a talking to by a commodore telling him his training plan isn't dense enough, and eventually they'll fall in line.
7/28/2013 9:14 AM
"Eating "Snacks" in the Engineroom? Rickover is rolling over again!"
Does a whole cheesecake lifted from the WR and consumed on the CCP's count as a snack?
8/26/2013 10:36 AM
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