This Is A Ridiculous Reason To Fire Someone
I'm kinda speechless over this one. From the Navy website:
WASHINGTON (NNS) -- Director, Strategic Systems Programs Vice Adm. Terry Benedict relieved Capt. John P. Heatherington, commanding officer of Naval Ordnance Test Unit (NOTU), Cape Canaveral, Fla., of his duties Feb. 18 due to loss of confidence in Heatherington's ability to command and for promoting an unprofessional command climate that was contrary to good order and discipline.Here's some more background from Navy Times. CAPT Heatherington is the former CO of USS Pasadena (SSN 752), and Master Chief Spindle is an MTCM(SS) well-respected enough to have been on the FY2014 E-9 board. The businesses that were "wrongfully affiliated" with that are "not representative" of the Navy are local strip clubs. The Admiral who did the firing is a known skimmer, who brazenly wears his water wings in his official photo but no Command at Sea pin, because he's an EDO and never held command at sea.
Heatherington was relieved and received non-judicial punishment (NJP) after a thorough command investigation revealed circumstances related to a command-sponsored, off-duty event. He failed to prevent members of his command from wrongfully soliciting items of monetary value and accepting items of value from a company doing business with the Department of Defense. He also wrongfully affiliated the U. S. Navy with businesses that are not representative of the Navy and DoD's high standards.
The mission of NOTU is to support and test sea based weapons systems. The circumstances in question are not related to NOTU's mission. Safety, security and integrity have not been compromised. No impact on NOTU's ability to continue their mission is expected...
...NOTU's senior enlisted leader, Master Chief Petty Officer Eric Spindle, was also relieved of his duties for similar reasons. Command Master Chief(SS) Victor Smith, SSP CMC, has assumed duties as senior enlisted leader for NOTU.
Note that Captain Heatherington and Master Chief Spindle are not accused of actively soliciting the donations from the strip club -- they just knew about it and didn't stop it. Sorry, but to me, unless the Skimmer Admiral had personally crayoned out an order that no units under his command were allowed to solicit strip club donations for a fundraising golf tournament, this is a ridiculous reason to fire anyone. PC culture run amok. Ridiculous. Likewise, the "company doing business with the Navy" solicitation rule is idiotic, and firing someone because their guys broke the rule without malice is stupid.
As with all controversial topics, YMMV, and I'd love to hear your thoughts.
posted by Bubblehead at 4:13 PM
164 Comments:
Good article, just one correction: Naval officers selected for Flag rank will permanently remove the Command at Sea and/or the Command Ashore insignia from their uniforms when they are promoted to Rear Admiral, Lower Half (O-7). So while the criticism of VADM Benedict of never holding command at sea may be valid, no admiral wears a command at sea pin.
2/18/2014 4:26 PM
True statement about the command pin, only O6 and below are authorized to wear the command pin per the uniform regulations.
2/18/2014 4:37 PM
Here is his official bio. Never held command at sea.
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/bios/navybio.asp?bioID=418
2/18/2014 4:39 PM
I don't know why you feel the need to harp on the fact that Benedict has never held command at sea. Benedict has plenty of responsibility seeing as he runs the Trident program (including everything but the warheads) for both the US and the UK. And since we're talking about a shore command anyway I fail to see how it even matters.
At any rate, maybe you don't think that the ethics regulations that govern members of the executive branch are all that important, but they still apply against us, even if you're a well-regarded served submarine captain.
From the source: "a company bidding for an agency contract or a person seeking an agency grant would be a prohibited source of gifts to employees of that agency." That's the entire agency, not just the leadership. Not soliciting gifts from prohibited sources is the easiest ethical call I can imagine.
As to the complaint that he wasn't involved, you yourself acknowledge that he knew about it and did nothing. That would make him involved even if he weren't the CO. Being the CO makes it worse.
Bottom line is that Heatherington seems to have seen something bad going on and did nothing about it. An O-6 served CO should know better. An ensign in SOBC ought to, for that matter.
2/18/2014 4:46 PM
Of all groups, my dad and his Shriner pals received a call from the local gents club, the girls donated thousands of $$ in tip money to the Shrine hospitals.
I'm not aware of any rules etc, but if it is a legal business, who cares.
2/18/2014 4:48 PM
CAPT J.P. Heatherington was my CO on the Pasadena. I would go out to sea with him again if I could. How can a submarine run aground and the CO not get fired (Lee Hankins), but CAPT Heatherington got fired for this??? Someone should hire some strippers for him at his retirement party.
Look at what President Clinton did in the White House......did he get fired?
2/18/2014 4:51 PM
If the money was received from a Bath House or Planned Parenthood, they would have received medals!
2/18/2014 4:58 PM
A sad day...
No doubt a well intended effort to raise money that went astray.
However, a solicication or receipt of donations from a contractor is clearly walking deep into a minefield.
For better or worse, this is not your Father's Navy. Any dealings with a business that could bring discredit to the Navy should have set off alarms.
2/18/2014 5:10 PM
He failed to prevent members of his command from wrongfully soliciting items of monetary value and accepting items of value from a company doing business with the Department of Defense.
OK, Part "A" I understand. I have had to go through many ethics training sessions as a gov't contractor, detailing what you can and can't do with gov't employees. You can give them a coffee cup or a pen, but not so much as a single free lunch.
Part "B", however, WTF:
He also wrongfully affiliated the U. S. Navy with businesses that are not representative of the Navy and DoD's high standards.
The last time I checked, strip clubs are legal and generally full of both Navy and DoD personnel. Usually I am not part of the "PC-ness is running roughshod over our Navy" crowd, but this is ridiculous.
2/18/2014 5:32 PM
@17:32
Well, we don't know all the details about part B. Maybe some of the clubs were on an exclusion list. Maybe they were setting up deals that would meet the legal definition of creating a hostile workplace - putting up club posters in exchange for the donation, etc. We just don't know. I bet the investigating officer from the NJP knows, though.
For good reason we shouldn't expect the Navy to release the finer details of the investigation. If Heatherington thinks revealing some details would work in his favor he's welcome to do so. Let's see what happens - I'm guessing he takes his retirement and leaves well enough alone.
2/18/2014 5:40 PM
Maybe you've noticed some recent incidents with the Air Force Nuclear Weapons folks - oh and maybe some problems at the MTS's?
At times like this there is no rock to hide under.
While I have no idea what type of businesses he affiliated with I'd say there is a pretty good chance it was a strip club or liquor store. Given the current environment about military sex assaults you have to realize as a person with a brain that anything involving women in any sort of level of undress is not going to play well in the Washington Post. I would say even hooters is on the banned list until this storm blows over.
All of this adds up to questioning the confidence in his command. All his sailors do is convert tactical missiles to safe missiles - no chance that an error there could cause anything bad to happen right? Whats is a dropped nuclear warhead or a blown up D5 between friends eh?
As to Benedict being a SWO I would say he has spent enough time at SSP working his way through the ranks of SSP to know a thing or two about leadership and the roles/responsibilities of a commander. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. Also he has been away from the SWO community long enough to have rubbed that stink off.
2/18/2014 6:00 PM
I weep for the future.
We as a country have lost our damn minds.
Might as well just give up now and let the buffoons take over.
Resistance is futile.
-nate
2/18/2014 6:03 PM
First of all this guy was a rockstar CO!
Now insider details. He had to deal with as many as a dozen IG complaints since he took command all found to be unfounded.
Apparently 3 civilian employees took issue with all the "sponsors" sought for the fundraising golf tourny and instead of going to the CO and saying so they went the roundabout way and elevated this above the CO. Wonder if those three are connected to the numerous IG complaints???
The "gentlemens club" sponsorship is being way blown out of proportion. At teh tourny the "employees" were there apporpirately dressed to be in front of your family, handing out T-shirts and drink tickets for those interested. (None of this was raffled or forced on anyone!)
He wasnt fired for the strip clubs being a sponsor although that is salacious enough to put in print to sell news time. He was fired for a technicality in the manner in which the command was allowed to seek sponsors...
Crew moral at NOTU is in the shitter with his relief...
Many of the crew are writing letters on their own initiative to see if they can help overturn this firing. realizing they arent going to get him back as CO...
Says a SHIT-Ton about loyalty doesnt it???
Wont say names IAW Joel's rules but the assclown that is at the center of pushing this to get him fired is guilty of so many infractions the CO Prior to JPH went to the mat for him to keep him from getting RFC'd himself...
VADM B is a fantastic leader and amazing EDO. One of the best things to happen to Strategic Systems Programs was him being selected Director. (BTW he promoted from 1 Star to three star in 2 years... Rumor is HE (VADM B) was DIRECTED to conduct an investigation and the technicality was a ZERO tolerance enough offense to rate the RFC...
and to the douche canoe that wasnt respectful of the chain of command to express the issue to the CO giving him the opportunity to address the issue... I expect Karma is going to be a bitch...
Yes I intend to remain anonymous but with defintiely be in continuous comms on this one...
2/18/2014 6:07 PM
I served 22 years in the Navy, three of those years on the Pasadena. Of the eight CO's I had in my career, he was by far my favorite and the best in my opinion.
2/18/2014 6:16 PM
It turns out past performance only counts in the sentencing phase, and it doesn't make a whole lot of difference for O-gangers.
2/18/2014 6:22 PM
Alas, I must turn in my command pin. We had a USS Annapolis Christmas Party at Foxwoods. As I recall they either comped or gave us a reduced rate on the room and food.
2/18/2014 6:39 PM
Kind of ironic the seawolf cob recently relieved was his ANAV on pasadena... is there a housecleaning in progress? Conspiracy theorists are gonna have a ball...
2/18/2014 6:39 PM
And I can remember the rec fund on a 1980's diesel paying for a ship's party in Subic that included peso snatchers!
Cry Beloved Submariners!
2/18/2014 7:01 PM
Anyone but me asking why the XO isn't on the "thanks for playing" list?
2/18/2014 7:09 PM
As a 24 year submarine veteran, CAPT Heatherington is one of the finest Naval Officers I have had the chance to work for.
As a previous anonymous stated, a former NOTU XO , now working as a civilian at NOTU has been on the warpath gunning for the CO for the past two years for some unknown reason. He along with this minions have submitted well over 30 IG complaints against NOTU.
If you throw enough darts one will eventually stick. Unfortunately this has tarnished a great man's final year in the Navy! Fair Winds JP!
2/18/2014 7:12 PM
This is a no-brainer no-no and a very good example of "The stupid shall be punished." Why not just solicit donations from the whore houses and street walkers, too? I'm sure no one well EVER question it! The Admiral was correct here, and so what if he's an EDO? You think an SWO knows enough to actually BUILD a ship? Stick with the issue at hand and don't let your bigotry show so obviously.
2/18/2014 7:17 PM
I weep for us all.
2/18/2014 7:17 PM
Anon 7:17 if you wanna say bad form that's one thing BUT its legal (strip club) not on any off limits list, and it isn't as if there was a drunken command function AT the strip club....
2/18/2014 7:27 PM
Anon 7:12 I know why he 's been gunning for him and so does the guy that relieved him as xo ...
until he hits the news tho its not appropriate to go there despite really wanting to "return the favor..."
2/18/2014 7:32 PM
I'm sorry, but after that many complaints and other issues the CO should have been on his guard against the office coup plotters and not have given them the weapon and opportunity they needed to strike. The fact he let his guard down knowing he was being targeted by the former XO was not a smart move. The stupid shall be punished.
2/18/2014 7:36 PM
Wow, MTCM(SS) then just MTC(SS) was one of my RDCs in boot camp back in the summer of '99. We were an all submarine division, and experiment they tried and I think they only did it once I'm not sure, probably because we kicked the shit out of all the other divisions. We had all the talent. I remember I was sweeping the compartment one afternoon I was all alone and I heard some one call my name three or four times I finally just turned around and said What do you want! To my surprise it was MTC(SS) with his eyes wide open in disbelief , I was already on my way down to the "lean and rest position" before he could say "drop". Good times.
2/18/2014 7:50 PM
Anon 7:32 You are right, The guy that relieved him as XO does know why... so do I, but it is a BS reason to go after someone so relentlessly just because you didn't get an monitary award (that wasn't earned).
I understand that VADM B can't put the genie back in the bottle by reinstating JP, but I don't think that NOTU's morale will improve while the former XO/GS civilian is still there.
2/18/2014 8:03 PM
8:03 a lot more too it than just the monetary award thing.... a LOT more...
Were you around when the "civilian" then in uniform was. Removed from command assessment team an a new LT was tasked to lead it... ?
2/18/2014 8:42 PM
Looks like the ol' EDO is doin' some PC ass kissin' for brownie points. And this WILL get him points with the current civilian stooges in charge.
2/18/2014 8:47 PM
I wonder if VADM Benedict is really sleeping well over this decision? He's a man that does have and live very high standards, true lead by example type. Hes had to make tough decisions before but I'm guessing he will struggle internally on this one for a very long time...
2/18/2014 9:21 PM
Obama 2384658
2/18/2014 10:23 PM
I remember when Captain's Mast "Fines" went into the slush fund for "Beer Ballgames"! (70's)
2/18/2014 10:27 PM
+1 on JP - great reputation to turn around 752 after some dark times in Pearl.
At best, I would say this didn't pass the "newspaper front page" test - a Naval command associated with ordinance testing had a fund-raiser associated with adult/strip clubs. (Legal or not, it doesn't look good on the newspaper.)
A great shame for many... Good luck JP!
2/18/2014 10:54 PM
The strip clubs are a red herring. This is purely flag paranoia in the wake of the Fat Leonard scandal. They can't help but go high and right in dealing with even the hint of an ethics problem.
2/18/2014 11:50 PM
At best, I would say this didn't pass the "newspaper front page" test - a Naval command associated with ordinance testing had a fund-raiser associated with adult/strip clubs. (Legal or not, it doesn't look good on the newspaper.)
It only made the front page because a CO was fired for it.
2/19/2014 12:01 AM
It's really hard to be "Fast Attack Tough" in the Boomer World...
2/19/2014 1:59 AM
"CAPT J.P. Heatherington was my CO on the Pasadena. I would go out to sea with him again if I could. How can a submarine run aground and the CO not get fired (Lee Hankins), but CAPT Heatherington got fired for this??? Someone should hire some strippers for him at his retirement party."
Lee Hankins didn't run aground. He hit a ship... If you are going to be FAT, then know you Facts!! Greenville 1, 2, and 3!! FAT all the way!!
2/19/2014 4:15 AM
If this is the former XO I'm thinking it is, he would have made a certain panda very, very sad. Talk about glass houses.
2/19/2014 5:07 AM
I'm so angry about this. Here was a man who represented so much of the best parts of the Navy -- an extremely talented warfighter, as well as a natural-born leader who cultivated cohesive teams that strove for excellence. I don't care that he technically broke this or that rule; greater crimes have been punished by letters from above rather than firing. When I look back and compare him to another skipper I had who always managed to look squeaky clean despite recklessly risking the lives of his crew, causing giant rifts between officers in the wardroom, and generally destroying crew morale, I have to cringe that JP is the one that gets removed from command at the end of the day while the other guy just continues on his way to admiralty. Today's peacetime Navy is designed to chew up and spit out its best officers while rewarding politically savvy assclowns who look good on paper.
2/19/2014 5:07 AM
FYI: http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20140219/news01/302190018/us-navy-officer-ousted-over-strip-club-event-sponsorship
Am too close to this story at my old command and to JP personally to comment directly but will echo comments above that Terry Benedict is rock-solid as an officer and a terrific DIRSSP.
2/19/2014 6:48 AM
By all reports, VADM Benedict is a fine and honorable officer. However, the Official Editorial Policy here at TSSBP is that 1) any Sailor who wears a SWO or ESWS pin and doesn't wear dolphins is, by definition, a skimmer, and 2) in all cases where a skimmer comes in conflict with a Submariner, I will mercilessly mock and belittle the skimmer by any means available, both fair and unfair, absent clear evidence that the Submariner is in the wrong. In this case, especially since CAPT Heatherington was so close to his regular end of tour, I see no reason not to take the Submariners side.
2/19/2014 7:10 AM
Roger all Bubblehead! Cant argue with that logic in the least!
Found this on "military times" proves that some of the previous commentors arent far off the mark for "disloyalty" at teh command that contributed to the over the top response by JPH's ISIC...
"The soliciting of adult-entertainment businesses was brought to Benedict's attention by a member of command, who reported the information through proper channels"
Proper is code for yes its legel and probably within the letter of the law but didnt use the chain of command... Lets see if not comfortable with the CO then there's the XO other Department Heads...
BTW to the douchebag that pursued the vendetta until finally fiding something to stick... Everyone there knows it was you...
2/19/2014 7:15 AM
Just read the FLorida today article Rubber Ducky posted the link for...
At lease Florida Today tried to capture the real issue...
"Incorrect process to obtain contractor sponsorship" BET THAT IS WHY HE GOT FIRED
But the part of this article that really scares me is "They solicited money from a couple organizations in the local area that are in the adult entertainment industry,” he said. “Those type of organizations just don’t reflect positively on the Navy or the (Department of Defense).
So where is this magic list of LEGAL organizations that dont reflect "Positively" on DoN or DoD???
I can hear it now, "IT was a STRIP CLUB dumbass..." Where is the line? Hooters? Bikini clad Latte stands? Are we allowed to have changes of command at a cruise terminal? (They have casinos and burlesque type shows on the ships that moor at those terminals... and holy crap they serve alcohol too...
Somebody tell us what the rules are... Dont Give a F**K how you feel about it (meaning whether you like that business or not)... I hope all the Senior Submarine O-Gangers are quaking in their boots... Skeletons can be a real B!tch...
2/19/2014 7:34 AM
It'll be a cold day on a boomer before I ever get involved with another fundraiser for anything in the Navy. Navy Relief, Sub Ball, United Way, CFC, etc.. No Thank-you, I'll just do my job and go home.
2/19/2014 7:37 AM
Seeing as the submariner was found guilty at NJP there seems to be clear evidence to somebody that the submariner was in the wrong.
You think Heatherington was a good CO? Last time I checked good COs addressed problems in their command rather than ignoring them. Maybe he even was (or seemed to be) a good submarine CO, but sometimes people change and sometimes they they just run out of rope. I knew a JO who went to mast for breaking the biggest rule in the book despite a deserved reputation for knowing the book backward and forward. His violation was real, it was serious, and it ended his career. One "Oh, shit" wipes out a lifetime of attaboys; TSSBP; etc. Welcome to the Navy. Maybe this is just pour encourager les autres but so far I've seen nothing to suggest that this firing is objectionable in any way. Even if you're being made an example of, you can still deserve it.
2/19/2014 8:07 AM
No, by definition CAPT H was not "found guilty," as he received NON-Judicial Punishment. Article 15 of the UCMJ very clearly and specifically lays out that NJP is not a finding of guilt or innocence, but just an awarding of punishment for actions at the discretion of the convening authority.
2/19/2014 8:28 AM
Once again the dinosaurs are rambling on about the good ol days. Please see NAVADMIN 239/13 "Combating trafficking in persons GMT" if you took the training you would know that strip clubs provide funds and a safe haven to people who exploit women. While the Navy hasn't banned visiting strip clubs it has stated that these establishments are detrimental to the Navy core values. If you don't like it you can vote with your feet. Or if you feel that strongly about degrading women how about getting your mom, wife, daughter at your local jiggle shack?
2/19/2014 8:35 AM
I'm so angry about this. Here was a man who represented so much of the best parts of the Navy -- an extremely talented warfighter, as well as a natural-born leader who cultivated cohesive teams that strove for excellence.
I'm going to stop you right there.
I'm not disputing whether or not CAPT Heatherington was a good CO. What I will dispute is when someone uses the term 'warfighter' to describe a submariner who has never seen combat.
"Warfighter" is a political term conjured by senior Navy and AF brass to make the support services seem relevant in the GWOT, and thus get a share of the increased funding. The word you should actually be using is "warrior," were CAPT Heatherington someone who actually did a combat patrol. It's an insult to our heritage to throw around these terms when the only 'warfighting' CAPT Heatherington, and any other sub CO, has done is scripted exercises and canned attack center trainer scenarios.
And before anyone brings up TLAM strikes, I do not consider launching ordinance into a 3rd world shithole from the safety of the Mediterranean a 'combat patrol.'
2/19/2014 8:40 AM
I could not have said it better. I applaud you and your comment. Also 100 percent feel the same way.
2/19/2014 8:43 AM
"Incorrect process to obtain contractor sponsorship" BET THAT IS WHY HE GOT FIRED
But the part of this article that really scares me is "They solicited money from a couple organizations in the local area that are in the adult entertainment industry,” he said. “Those type of organizations just don’t reflect positively on the Navy or the (Department of Defense).
It sounds like the strip club issue was the cherry on top, but serves as a good sensationalist story to sell papers. You have 45+ comments here alone gasping at how a CO could be fired over strip clubs and only a couple (including yours) that address the fact that he was found accepting donations from a DoD contractor.
What some people may not know: There have been a slew of ethics trainings at the O-5 and above level lately because this sort of thing (accepting money from the wrong people) keeps happening. This could have been a case of 'don't be the next guy,' and CAPT Heatherington was the next guy. I have every reason to believe that CAPT Heatherington received this training and should have had the experience and wisdom to be a stickler for the books with this kind of stuff for the time being.
2/19/2014 8:46 AM
Anon 8:46
If by "he accepted donations from a Dod contractor" you mean the rec committee sought out and received a donation to help support the upcoming Sub Ball... and the proceess, meaning dotted I's and crossed T's, wasnt followed, then okay. Ethically JPH's intention was to follow process correctly to include historically in that area... The same flippin process (except the nature of adult business support) was followed the previous 10+ years. by numerous different CO's. He (JPH) didnt personally profit or benefit from those donations and if this is the way we handle little things like this FIRING the guy and tarnishing his name... REALLY??? WTF...
Why not provide Letter of Caution and return all the donations... Seems a more "measured and appropriate response" To use the President of the United States' verbatim statement...
Always believed that the severity of punishment is proportionate to intent and violation...
the intent here was to raise money to put on a sub ball that is known locally as being more centered on retirees and local sub league that the few (<100) Sailors in uniform... Dont believe me? check the attendance over the last 10 years...
2/19/2014 9:00 AM
That must be why right in the middle of every mast I've been to the Captain says "I find you guilty."
While not a legal conviction, the authority awarding the non-judicial punishment must still have evidence that a crime punishable under the UCMJ was committed. The standard of evidence is not as strong as that required for a trial, but the stakes are lower. Both elements are by design. Nevertheless, a CO cannot simply arbitrarily find against the member, there must be some evidence to support it. If the member objects to the finding he can almost always appeal it. In fact, in this situation he would have the right to refuse it altogether in favor of a trial by court-martial. Heatherington doesn't seem to be doing either of those things. Read into that what you will.
2/19/2014 9:07 AM
That must be why right in the middle of every mast I've been to the Captain says "I find you guilty."
While not a legal conviction, the authority awarding the non-judicial punishment must still have evidence that a crime punishable under the UCMJ was committed. The standard of evidence is not as strong as that required for a trial, but the stakes are lower. Both elements are by design. Nevertheless, a CO cannot simply arbitrarily find against the member, there must be some evidence to support it. If the member objects to the finding he can almost always appeal it. In fact, in this situation he would have the right to refuse it altogether in favor of a trial by court-martial. Heatherington doesn't seem to be doing either of those things. Read into that what you will.
2/19/2014 9:07 AM
Yeah, maybe the good old days should in fact be revisited, folks. What's next? CO's getting fired because of a ship's party on Westpac?
Hell, the only places we ever did them were in bar, and usually at places like Island Girls (PI), the Dallas Club (Guam), etc.
Frankly, I'd like to ask this GS exactly what his end game was. What did he hope to achieve by his actions? That alone would tell me whether or not to pursue it any further, and from the other commenters who know him, it sounds like someone has a terminal case of sandy vagina-it is.
2/19/2014 9:38 AM
Properly no one is ever 'found guilty' at mast. The correct phrase is 'found to have committed the offense with which charged.'
2/19/2014 9:40 AM
Guess I better try to recover all the photos of when I reenlisted a CPO at Hooters... Especially since one of the young ladies on staff held the bible for the oath... Wonder how exploited she felt???
Based on how Capt H was treated I could be looking at PCS orders to Kansas (Leavenworth) with no perdiem or travel...
Retirement papers to be submitted by Close of business today...
2/19/2014 10:07 AM
Anyone know if Cat Futch is available for retirement parties? :-)
2/19/2014 10:55 AM
Typical skimmer admiral with no dolphins, I am sure he visited some places that were just as bad... maybe just need to investigate Terry to see where he made his deployments as a skimmer and see what he did in his time off?
2/19/2014 11:16 AM
As a former QM who served in the 70's, I would NOT want to be in today's PC navy. Period. This should not even have raised an eye brow. If anything at all, they were recouping sailor's money from those strip clubs! Sad state of affairs.
2/19/2014 11:59 AM
"Sorry, but to me, unless the Skimmer Admiral had personally crayoned out an order that no units under his command were allowed to solicit strip club donations for a fundraising golf tournament, this is a ridiculous reason to fire anyone. PC culture run amok." -BH
At last! You finally agree Navy PC cultue has run amok. But besides his shameless wearing of a Command at Sea pin, it seems a safe bet that Vice Adm. Terry Benedict (that white hair in his bio photo) close to retirement age. In other words, he has not the slightest inclination of bucking SECNAV Mabus's policies.
Would it surprise anyone if Vice Adm. Benedict's replacement is a woman presently in his command? Time will tell.
2/19/2014 12:49 PM
It would not be at all surprising if the next DIRSSP came from within the SSP. As a group they are very insular and they tend to spend nearly their whole careers there. As for the gender I don't think there are any suitably high-placed women.
2/19/2014 1:00 PM
I bet the admin ldo turned him in. He is a real tool!
2/19/2014 1:09 PM
if you had said "former 6280" youd a been lots closer...
2/19/2014 1:42 PM
C'mon. Spill it. Who and why? Careers are in the crapper, and for what? What motivation could this "former 6280" possibly have had to trash two careers like this?
2/19/2014 2:07 PM
I spent some time at NOTU in the last 10 years... and "former 6280" narrows down for me. I don't necessarily see Mr. "three tours at the Cape" doing something like this (though I suppose anything is possible), so that really only leaves one person.
2/19/2014 2:30 PM
It wasn't the former xo/current GS civilian who dealt the death blow, it was one of his female minions.
The former XO/current GS civilian just cheered on the gullible and weak minded.
2/19/2014 2:37 PM
It wasn't the ex-XO/three tours at NOTU 6280 it was the current GS-11/former XO and as someone else said, his minions.
2/19/2014 2:45 PM
"And before anyone brings up TLAM strikes, I do not consider launching ordinance into a 3rd world shithole from the safety of the Mediterranean a 'combat patrol.' " - anon @2/19/2014 8:40 AM
You may sound correct to those as ignorant as yourself only until the next U.S. sub sinks with all hands during in an undeclared war -- which Congress has not declared since 1941. Not only did 374 officers and 3131 men of the Submarine Force die in 52 submarines lost, but the medal most received postumously for giving their lives was as it remains today, a Purple Heart.
Modern submarines are as safe as buses, you would say. They are much safer, but they can also do much more hazardous things. --- On what boat did you qualify? Are you a nuke? Are you sure nukes were told 'everything' about their missions? Why might that NOT have been the case? Ever hear of Presidential Unit Citations? Why on earth would submarine crews ever merit those --- according to someone who thinks like you?
2/19/2014 2:58 PM
Anonymous 8:40 AM - Hey dumbass: If shooting Tomahawks at unfriendly targets is not submarine warfare and is not a combat patrol then kindly tell us WTF you would think would qualify as combat? Hmmm? This should be interesting.
2/19/2014 3:10 PM
I have no doubt the CAPT is a good man, but at the end of the day, it's the action (or lack thereof) that judges his suitability as a Commanding Officer. - Especially the CO of a shore based facility comprised of military and government civilians (not a submarine).
Despite the rhetoric about the whistle blower usurping the chain of command, I have no doubt the individual did try to use the chain of command, and used the EEO process. The complaint was likely buried or inadequately addressed that the individual had no choice but to go outside the command. So ask yourself why? Why was the command climate in a such a state that the individual believed the immediate chain of command could not be trusted? Whether you like it or not, command climate is the CO's responsibility.
I applaud those that say they would serve under the CAPT anytime and anywhere, but that actually makes the case for why VADM Benedict had to make the decision to relieve the CO. - people would follow him despite his actions.
2/19/2014 3:18 PM
From dictionary.com: Combat 3. military . active, armed fighting with enemy forces.
Shooting ordinance at a defenseless country from uncontested waters is not active armed fighting with enemy forces. The enemy doesn't have the capability to fight back. A combat patrol is when you have a realistic chance of the enemy fighting back.
The Florida could have announced 2 days beforehand that it will launch TLAMs into Libya and transmit its exact launch basket, still they would not have been contested.
Everytime you call someone who launched TLAMs from the safety of a submarine a 'warfighter,' you insult people who actually saw real combat. People who were real warriors and gave their lives in the line of duty.
Submariners are POGs. Just accept it. If they wanted to be something else, the Army and Marines were looking for a lot of volunteers not to long ago.
2/19/2014 3:24 PM
You're way off buddy. According to your definition, any marine or soldier who is not actively pulling a trigger is not a warfighter unless he is doing exactly that, and all of the marines and soldiers employed in any other manner besides operational fires are also not warfighters.
The "warfighter" moniker is not about macho bullshit, its a term to distinguish those who employ firepower from those who do not. A chaplain or a JAG is not a warfighter. The commander of an SSN, as well as an EM3 on that SSN, are warfighters, regardless of whether or not shots are being fired, and regardless of whether or not their daily life would make a good action movie. It has nothing to do with the action and everything to do with the capability.
When/if the shit actually goes down and a Chinese SAG needs sinking, you can bet your ass it will be SSNs that do the job seeing as we won't put a DDG or carrier anywhere near their shiny new missiles. Maybe then submariners will meet your myopic definition of what constitutes a warfighter.
2/19/2014 3:41 PM
Speaking of the good old days...
2/19/2014 3:45 PM
For those questioning what the charge may have been how about my old favorite....Article 134 "General Clause" which states “Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special, or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.” In this case bringing discredit upon the armed forces?
2/19/2014 5:34 PM
The picture on the fairwater is a blast from a past that has been replaced by the diversity goons.
The warrior stuff, well it sounds cool but x-box at pd with 3rd world receivers is sort of lame at best. Maybe the outrigger canoes would seem threatening with a zero angle on the bow?
The WWII subs made war patrols and some peacetime boats have done some hard core blind man's cold war bluff in the past and ongoing but putting glow sticks on third world sand boxes is just chickenshit in comparison.
2/19/2014 5:43 PM
Sitting the selection board isn't an automatic vote of confidence. I don't know the guy at all, but it's not like PERS hand-picks from a large pool of highly recommended candidates. You fill out an application, get your CO to sign it, and scan/email to the Force Master Chief. And unless you did it two days before the submission deadline and they have enough members already, you'll almost certainly get a phone call telling you to pack a bag. Assuming he's top-shelf because he sat a 9 board is about as misguided as saying he's a turd for getting caught up in this mess.
Shifting gears.....any current NOTU staff on here? I heard from a buddy that the VADM fired these guys at an open mast in front of the whole command, but that's friend of a friend type stuff so no idea if it's true or not (probably not, but worth asking)
2/19/2014 6:18 PM
Alright douchebags... it wasn't three tours as you call him... hes a straight shooting quality guy! Anyone that says otherwise is on my list....
It was the jackass be relieved... whose now a gs and has done nothing good fir the command or nation going back to him being XO.... he has a reckoning coming one day...
2/19/2014 6:25 PM
And for the record. It was 2 counts of article 92 ... one for each of the two govt contractors that contributed to the event just like they have for LOTS of years.... so f-ing pissed about this.....
2/19/2014 6:31 PM
Anon 318 you have either never stood the watch or if our did (being generous) you don't fucking get it... otherwise you would understand the trust forged by those of us that would serve with him again even knowing it was a suicide mission....
2/19/2014 6:37 PM
Anon @6:37
And you don't get that we live in a republic and our loyalty is properly to the law, not to any one man.
2/19/2014 6:47 PM
You're way off buddy. According to your definition, any marine or soldier who is not actively pulling a trigger is not a warfighter unless he is doing exactly that, and all of the marines and soldiers employed in any other manner besides operational fires are also not warfighters.
My definition of a warfighter is that it is strictly a political term to make communities who are playing support roles in the GWOT have more 'esprit de corps.'
You are correct that Marine and Army support MOSs are not warriors.
The "warfighter" moniker is not about macho bullshit, its a term to distinguish those who employ firepower from those who do not. A chaplain or a JAG is not a warfighter. The commander of an SSN, as well as an EM3 on that SSN, are warfighters, regardless of whether or not shots are being fired, and regardless of whether or not their daily life would make a good action movie. It has nothing to do with the action and everything to do with the capability.
You're proving my point. All this chest-thumping about being a warfighter is at best ridiculous and at worst discredits the entire submarine force. The people who have really BTDT don't pound their chests about being warfighters all the time. Mostly they just don't want to talk about shitting their pants uncontrollably and seeing their buddy's guts being blown out.
The action was good in the 2000s and if the people who volunteered for subs REALLY wanted in on the 'warfighting' business, they could have gotten their piece.
I don't need to validate my service by pretending something I'm not. I didn't sign up to be a grunt for a reason. Everyone who knows anything about submarining knows that the missions that we do are important in the 21st century. However, conducting submarine warfare on an enemy Navy hasn't been one of those missions and is unlikely to be in the next 15-20 years.
When/if the shit actually goes down and a Chinese SAG needs sinking, you can bet your ass it will be SSNs that do the job seeing as we won't put a DDG or carrier anywhere near their shiny new missiles. Maybe then submariners will meet your myopic definition of what constitutes a warfighter.
No, they'll meet my definition of warriors. They'll also have done a combat patrol. It'll be against a vastly inferior enemy, but a combat patrol nonetheless.
Unluckily for you we are too economically tied to China for that to ever happen, but it serves as a good scenario for Admirals to pitch to Congress to get more money.
2/19/2014 6:49 PM
647.
Go sign up for obamacare and support the law and republic...
I need you to subsidize me
I guess you are okay with prison for a traffic violation too.
To quote your president like a previous poster did... measured and appropriate... wedont execute people for a minor infraction... what happened in this case...
2/19/2014 7:00 PM
What you're missing in the 'measured response' piece is the hours and hours of ethics training that O-5 and aboves went through recently. Despite all that, this man decided to solicit money from questionable sources while he also knew someone had an axe to grind about him.
Worst thing in the world? No. But Below Average in the headwork department, particularly for a post CO.
2/19/2014 7:05 PM
Anon 6:37
Such as the suicidal trust forged by your words that fails to know the difference of when it's worth following a leader that takes an organization where it 'ought to be' vice where it 'thinks it should be'. - It seems most on here still believe the latter.
2/19/2014 7:11 PM
Funny thing about following a leader to Hell and back is that there is no coming back.
2/19/2014 7:15 PM
"He failed to prevent members of his command from wrongfully soliciting items of monetary value and accepting items of value from a company doing business with the Department of Defense. "
Outrage over this firing is misplaced and inappropriate. Doesn't matter how good you thinks he is (or was in a prior role), shaking down local businesses for a little 'quid pro quo' is not honorable service. It sounds like JP had the chance to recognize and uphold the standard, but missed his opportunity on this one.
Maybe SECDEF is right and we really do need a cultural reset on professional ethics throughout the military.
And Joel: I recommend sending your moral compass in for calibration, because your writeup on this has missed the point entirely. Same goes for many of the commenters who think that maintaining an ethical standard is an indication of weakness.
2/19/2014 7:29 PM
Unluckily for you we are too economically tied to China for that to ever happen, but it serves as a good scenario for Admirals to pitch to Congress to get more money.
You're demonstrating about an E6/O1 level of understanding here. All the smug cynicism of your typical mall goth, you've got it all figured out unlike the deluded masses. Go brush up on the PPBE process, maybe skim over a little Thucydides, and try again.
2/19/2014 7:45 PM
@ 7:45:
I'll translate that for you: I'm demonstrably wrong, so I'm going to hurl insults like a 5 year old instead.
Stop drinking the beltway kool-aid. China is not going to declare war on the U.S., and vice versa. Even the winner of that fight would be a huge loser and everyone knows it.
If we conduct unrestricted submarine warfare against a Chinese SAG in the next 20 years, I'll buy you a thousand dollar hooker.
2/19/2014 7:59 PM
The donations from contractors are definitely the bigger issue here. To everyone that says that that's the way the event has always been run, that's exactly the point. PCOs and COs go to their ethics training and get told flat out that this is wrong. Then they go to their commands and say "Well, the (big annual charity event) is coming up. Don't break any rules, and make it bigger than last year." MAYBE someone sacks up and tells the CO that the two are incompatible, but more likely they figure out that:
1. He's not really looking very close at how you're running the donation drive; and
2. He's definitely looking at how much money you're bringing in - and they decide which rule he really cares about. And the whole process keeps going on year to year, with people getting ethics training they immediately turn around and violate because "well, we've just always done it that way." There's no more patience at the flag level for conveniently blowing off ethics regs, and we'll probably see a few more otherwise good senior officers get caught out before everyone gets the message.
2/19/2014 8:00 PM
So it's not okay to solicit sponsorships from legal businesses, but it's okay to suck cock? Gotcha.
2/19/2014 8:09 PM
"Sorry, but to me, unless the Skimmer Admiral had personally crayoned out an order that no units under his command were allowed to solicit strip club donations..."
Does this comment not contradict the proclaimed comments of how great and intellegent CAPT H was as the CO?
Despite the news, I have no reason not to believe CAPT H is a good man. I should believe a man of his stature was initelligent enough to discern the ethical choices without the "crayons." It was probably one of the reasons VADM B selected and trusted CAPT H to be the CO of NOTU.
If that is the case, the "lack of action" is starting to smell like a fear of accountability. Ever hear of the old addage "Power Corrupts, Absolutely Power Corrupts Absolutely?." Please do not misunderstand my words - by NO means am I meaning to label CAPT H as a coward or corrupt politician. But is it possible CAPT H simply did not know how to find his way out from the situation that his command placed him in? Especially in the Navy environment today. It explains the "lack of action" even after the complaint was filed (numerous times). ---> thus the 'vote of no confidence' to lead.
Just Food for thought, especially since the news never tells or has the insight on the details behind the headlines.
2/19/2014 8:21 PM
I worked at PHNSY when CAPT H was CO of 752. Straight up pro. Guys on that boat liked and respected him. Hard to see the logic in shit canninng this guy, but I (we) don't know the whole story. While I love the discussion on this thread. I hate the anonymous crap, and that people hide behind it. Some of these anonymous comments almost certainly come from skimmer trolls with no clue and no perspective. I own my comments whenever I post and I will continue that tradition. Please direct any love or hatred to:
Chris O'Leary LCDR, USN. Silver dolphins 94. Gold in 09. I am currently the repair officer at NPTU Charleston.
2/19/2014 8:45 PM
So it's not okay to solicit sponsorships from legal businesses, but it's okay to suck cock? Gotcha.
You sound really smart.
2/19/2014 8:47 PM
I thought the dolphin/nuke community held itself to a higher standard of self accountability. Afterall, it was that reputation that SECDEF asked the dolphin/nuke community to investigate the Air Force in 2008. Which didn't end well for the Air Force.
Where's the self accountability now? Or should I (we) set lower professional expectations of the dolphin community?
2/19/2014 9:16 PM
Heatherington should have requested a court martial if the charge was BS.
2/19/2014 9:23 PM
Heatherington is an amazing CO and an all around one of a kind person. He's honest-probably to a fault-and will do anything for anyone. He truly cares about his sailors, and to see this astounds me to no end. this is clearly a "scape goat" situation; as I have seen/heard of others blatantly break protocol that could endanger the lives of others and all they got was a slap on the hands. The Admiral and all who were involved in this unethical "firing" are NOT good examples of how our Navy is run, and should be fired themselves. And the to women who "tattled" based on half baked assumptions, need to learn to get their facts straight for one, and two: what goes around comes around, girls, and you WILL get yours.
2/19/2014 9:28 PM
FWIW, the targets are in trouble again:
http://www.janes.com/article/34227/us-navy-frigate-under-inspection-after-grounding-in-turkey
2/19/2014 10:37 PM
Heatherington should have requested a court martial if the charge was BS.
Doesn't work like that for officers.
The act of even being in NJP or a court martial equally derails an officer's career. He was done the minute the IG found something substantial.
2/19/2014 11:05 PM
There is the problem right there!
2/20/2014 5:37 AM
Chris - I've thought long and hard over the years on the "anonymous commenter" issue, and have always decided that it's better to give active duty/contractors anonymity to comment if they feel their comments would negatively impact their careers, but I much prefer when people use their names. Unfortunately, there's no way to weed out people who don't need anonymity but choose to use it to spew unhelpful garbage comments.
2/20/2014 10:27 AM
I like to read the posts that Joel makes to maintain some connection to the submarine force (I retired in 2009), but I also like to read the comments and they help remind me of some of the reasons I was glad to leave at 20 years and not stick around longer as several of my friends have.
2/20/2014 11:43 AM
Lets see... Fired, never going back to sea, retiring as O6/E9? Not too bad! There's lots of those around (called contractors) and nobody really-really cares.
2/20/2014 11:56 AM
A damned shame, sounds like a good man. He should have refused Mast as was his right and forced the Court Martial if the charges were without merit and his integrity mattered to him. His career was over either way and probably when he received orders to NOTU. How many flags came out of there?
Some people hold submariners in low esteem for some reason. It's almost universal in some places.
If you were ever in Combat in the Navy you would know it and so would anyone looking at your ribbon rack and seeing nestled there, just above the PUC, the little Combat Action Ribbon. Maybe submariners don't qualify for the CAR so as a substitute we'd be forced to accept a war patrol pin. I've never seen any living sailors wearing one of them but then, I don't go to the Submarine Ball.
2/20/2014 12:41 PM
Our current Secretary of State, John Kerry, earned 3 Purple Hearts in the navy. Those were in combat, yet he has not the slightest limp.
Submariners Kerry's age who gave their lives in sunken subs don't limp either. I think 60% of Purple Hearts are vastly overrated by a clueless public.
2/20/2014 1:29 PM
Warrior, Warfighter...What a stupid conversation.
The fact is each and every service member volunteers knowing there is always the potential risk to one's life while defending the Constitution. There are soldiers, sailors, and marines driving around the streets of Afghanistan waiting for some dumbass kid on a bike to blow them up. They may never get an opportunity to face the terrorist face-to-face but I sure as heck would not think twice about calling them warriors or warfighters or whatever name you want to give it.
2/20/2014 2:11 PM
A damned shame, sounds like a good man. He should have refused Mast as was his right and forced the Court Martial if the charges were without merit and his integrity mattered to him. His career was over either way and probably when he received orders to NOTU. How many flags came out of there?
Says everyone who has never dealt with legal issues.
A court martial isn't like NJP. It's a no kidding criminal proceeding. It goes on your background record for every future employer to see. When someone asks if you've ever been arrested and brought up on criminal charges, now you have to say 'yes.' It doesn't matter if you get found not guilty; people will question your integrity enough to not hire you.
You have to hire a lawyer. You have to post bail.
On top of that, he'll be relieved for cause while this whole thing takes years to play out.
An NJP won't follow you out of the military.
There is really absolutely nothing to gain by requesting a court martial in this case. The punishment awarded for NJP - relief for cause - is exactly what would happen if he went to court martial. And then he has to risk a whole bunch of other shit.
This isn't like when a frocked E-6 loses two ranks over a tenuous charge and wants to risk the court martial.
2/20/2014 3:04 PM
BTW, "Bubbleheads" is a derogatory euphemism coined by skimmers many decades ago.
After reading all these comments, it reinforces my observation that spelling isn't one of the subjects emphasized at SOBC or enlisted Sub School. Memory training is also not a strong point. Reminder:
http://bubbleheads.blogspot.com/2010/03/uss-chicago-co-fired.html
So ... I ask ... where was the command's current XO while all this was going down at NOTU ? Obviously he wasn't onboard covering his CO's arse.
Reminder .... (this one surely rings a bell, eh?):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Finback_(SSN-670)
Course, some'a ya ol' sea dogs weren't even borned when that took place, so how could ya be held accountable to know "learn from experience" ... ?
And to think ... this recent NOTU episode was only a short distance from where Cat Futch gained her notoriety. Heck, maybe her daughter works in one of the local "adult entertainment" venues that were solicited.
Apparently breathing too much enriched oxygen for extended periods causes memory lapse.
But WTF anyhow, now that women are being placed aboard naval submarines, the command won't need to solicit from outside the crew anymore.
2/20/2014 6:23 PM
So here's something that will make you furious. JP gets fired for allowing his command to solicit donations from government contractors to support the Sub Ball. Yet, on April 8th, in Washington DC, at the Gaylord National Harbor Convention Center, the Navy League will host their annual Sea Air Space banquet. Tens of Admirals and their spouses, including Terry Benedict, will be allowed to attend free of charge, subsidized by the big defense contractors. Why? Because the lawyers have blessed it. Because the CNO wants the Navy League to continue to lobby Congress and support shipbuilding.
So, was JP wrong only because he didn't get the donations blessed? If so, is that a firing offense? Or is it really the strip clubs that did him in?
2/20/2014 6:36 PM
"BTW, "Bubbleheads" is a derogatory euphemism coined by skimmers many decades ago. "
Wrong. It's a pejorative term, but it was coined by New London submariners around 1960 as derogatory reference to the upper base gendarmes who wore white helmet liners and gave the term meaning. These were the goons who wandered around the gedunk and Exchange handing our 'speeding tickets' for frayed white hats, dirty dungarees, and other fashion flaws earned by hard work on the boats on the lower base. These guys never dared go below the railroad tracks. Bubbleheads. Pissants.
2/20/2014 7:11 PM
So when the chips are down ....
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/10/10/deputy-commander-of-u-s-nuclear-forces-vice-admiral-tim-giardina-fired-for-using-counterfeit-chips-at-a-casino/
2/20/2014 7:13 PM
Anon @ 2/19/2014 5:43 PM: One BIG problem with your criticism is that you apparently speed read. For instance, Walker "T" and the MG's tells... (2/18/2014 4:48 PM) "Of all groups, my dad and his Shriner pals received a call from the local gents club, the girls donated thousands of $$ in tip money to the Shrine hospitals. I'm not aware of any rules etc, but if it is a legal business, who cares.
Blogger chief torpedoman said...(2/19/2014 10:55 AM) "Anyone know if Cat Futch is available for retirement parties? :-)"
My point is the submarine gals and their LGBT allies are not the red blood of submariners. The guys who like gals and their risque performances are. Care to argue with the majority? - Not the Rubber Duck
2/20/2014 7:23 PM
I second the notion that "Three Tours" had nothing to do with this. He was an outstanding naval officer and he retired four months before this golf outing. I'd like to think that had he still been in that position he might have kept JP out of trouble, like the great XO (and former CO) he was.
2/20/2014 7:31 PM
Speaking of intolerance for red-blooded male preferences, has anyone else wondered about all the silence on those 2 ex-SEAL security contractors?. Rex
2/20/2014 8:11 PM
You can wank all you want about how the Navy isn't the Navy you recall, or how some civilians or retired Navy with axes to grind might have thrown JP under the bus.
You can also play all the cute skimmer-vs-bubblehead games to your hearts' content.
VADM Benedict is a controversial person, but I don't see how you can achieve three stars and not be. Those who know me might think I'd have plenty of reasons to criticize him, but as always I'll call it as I see it....
VADM Benedict makes his expectations extremely clear to all of his people. I know he made his expectations clear on ethical behavior and avoiding hostile work environments (i.e. involvement with strippers). You can cry over whether those standards are fair and just, but they are his standards and they are clear. What more can you expect?
I don't know exactly what happened and how it transpired. I look forward to reading a FOIAed report some day. If it causes me to change my opinions I'll gladly admit it.
JP is a great man. It's very unfortunate that his career had to end this way. He will continue to do great things and have the same impact that he's had on many of you. I wish him and his wife the very best.
2/20/2014 8:43 PM
JP is a good man who has done great things. This does nothing to change who he is or what he has done. We have always been held to high standards, and I would not have it any other way and I know JP would agree. Best of luck JP from a fellow DEVRON TWELVE shipmate.
2/20/2014 11:56 PM
I agree. JP has always been a stand up guy. Good luck from a fellow PASADENA CO.
2/21/2014 12:04 AM
I am not a "Skimmer Troll" I was a sub vol that requested a fast attack on the west coast and got a cruiser on the east coast.
Warrior is not the term that I would use to describe myself, even though we did shoot "bullets" @ Beruit. We did get some return fire. The SoCar just moved a little farther offshore.
The Stuff with JP has gone on forever and will probably continue into the far future. Good men get taken down for seemingly minor infractions.
2/21/2014 1:16 AM
I have been in this business quite some time and have conducted many fund raisers and and briefed my boss on fund raisers and have given counsel on numerous occasions. Donations come in three areas (Black, Grey, white) in regards to DOD contractors that's a black area even though they donate millions to election campaigns. If someone was gunning for the CO a simple 1-800 call complaint to the IG is all it took. Once the IG opens the investigation then Benedict's hands were tied . The strip club was just icing for the media and the news. I know JP and yes he is a good Officer but the Command Team should have backed him up on this one, if they did and he still let it go then he made a mistake, not sure if I would consider that firing material but definitely a Letter of Reprimand.
2/21/2014 5:46 AM
So here's something that will make you furious. JP gets fired for allowing his command to solicit donations from government contractors to support the Sub Ball. Yet, on April 8th, in Washington DC, at the Gaylord National Harbor Convention Center, the Navy League will host their annual Sea Air Space banquet. Tens of Admirals and their spouses, including Terry Benedict, will be allowed to attend free of charge, subsidized by the big defense contractors. Why? Because the lawyers have blessed it. Because the CNO wants the Navy League to continue to lobby Congress and support shipbuilding.
Yes, the most senior officer in the Navy who regularly talks to the SECDEF and POTUS is going to have more decision-making power over who to accept donations from than an O-6 base installation commander. That includes who to recommend for DoD contracts and whether it's legit to involve these people in fund raisers.
It's the CNO's responsibility to do these things. The CNO gets to decide if the Navy wants to do a deal with someone, not an O-6 base commander. Capt Heatherington's job was to run NOTUS.
The ethical rules are in place so that the O-5/O-6 unit or installation COs don't make promises that they aren't authorized to make on behalf of the Navy - explicitly or implicitly.
2/21/2014 8:38 AM
There were some comments in regards to the use of the word warfighter and the removal from the direct fire combat zone for submariners. That wasn't necessarily the case for 'shore duties'. Between 2004-2011 (maybe longer), there were quite a few submariners being pulled to fill IAs. Most cases were volunteer to enhance advancement, but a few were voluntold. Mostly they wanted the JOs, but I remember the boat sent a couple FTs, Nav ETs and TMs when it went into the yards. The only group I can think of that kind of got a pass on IAs were the enlisted nukes.
2/21/2014 12:21 PM
Anon at 12:21,
FWIW I know of one nuke mechanic and one officer from my old boat alone who both ended up in Afghanistan at different times. Both came under fire or hit IED's. Both lived and returned to the fleet. Both are "war fighters" in my view.
2/21/2014 1:09 PM
@12:21:
Firstly, the comment about 'warfighter' was directed to someone who used the phrase "he was a great warfighter" to describe Capt Heatherington's tenure as a submarine CO, during which time he didn't see any direct action let alone fight in a war.
Secondly, submariners went on IAs to fill support billets so that the Army and Marines had more personnel to send into the field. With only a few exceptions, they don't go outside the wire.
2/21/2014 1:40 PM
Explain that to the medically retired FT2 in my office with PTSD.
2/21/2014 4:01 PM
Removing potentially libelous comments that, while not using names, identify people and cause them problems.
2/22/2014 9:51 AM
This whole thread is a snoozer.
With apologies to Gary Larson, this whole episode strikes me as the contents of the following cartoon balloon:
"Blah, blah, blah, blah, BOOMER FAGS....blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, MORE BOOMER FAG STUFF GOES HERE, blah, blah, blah..."
2/22/2014 4:31 PM
SSN guy guess yoou missed the fact the thread is about a guy that was CO of a fast boat....
Jealous and stupid....
2/22/2014 8:39 PM
Explain that to the medically retired FT2 in my office with PTSD.
Good to know people are still living up to the welfare queen stereotype.
2/22/2014 8:59 PM
Blah, blah, blah...INSERT BOOMER FAGGGG COMMENT HERE...blah, blah, blah...
2/23/2014 6:52 AM
I typed a reply, but your words say more about you than I ever could.
(Most people living off of government welfare don't work full time)
2/23/2014 8:33 AM
"SSN guy guess yoou missed the fact the thread is about a guy that was CO of a fast boat.... - Jealous and stupid @ 8:39 PM"
Guess you missed the facts that:
1- the entire post is about a very competent and apparently popular fast boat CO who was skewered during a larger investigation (directed by SECDEF) of nuclear test cheating reported by a female!
2- twice as many boomer big heads and women go through power school as red-blooded SSN men.
2/23/2014 11:37 AM
Just think, nukes, the gal that informed on the test chesting could be assigned to your boat soon. Should be rather interesting for you.
2/23/2014 1:54 PM
I typed a reply, but your words say more about you than I ever could.
(Most people living off of government welfare don't work full time)
You are defending someone who is collecting disability retirement when he isn't disabled. That is the very definition of welfare queen. I don't care if he works another job or not, he is milking the system for money that he doesn't deserve.
2/23/2014 3:30 PM
IN OTHER NEWS...
PBS is in production for a documentary on Rickover. Here's the blurb:
"Combative, provocative and searingly blunt, Admiral Hyman G. Rickover was a flamboyant maverick, a unique American hero. When few thought it possible, then-Captain Rickover undertook to harness the power of the atom to drive the first nuclear-powered submarine, the USS Nautilus, whose trip under the polar ice pack was one of the great adventure stories of the 1950s. Later, Rickover built the world's first commercial nuclear power plant at Shippingport, PA. Rickover's achievements made him into a national celebrity, and he appeared on the cover of Time magazine. Many questioned Rickover's goal of an all nuclear navy, and others questioned his creation of a technocratic elite, his own navy within the Navy. However, few contested that he had transformed the Navy and changed the course of America's technological development.
"Today, questions about nuclear power have arisen again, in the wake of the disaster in Japan, yet nuclear power remains one of the main alternatives to fossil fuels. Many wonder whether America can maintain its technological pre-eminence and whether we can still build and manage large-scale projects. To understand these issues, we would do well to consider the story of the man who created the nuclear navy as well as the civilian nuclear power industry: Hyman G. Rickover."
2/23/2014 4:16 PM
Medical retirement doesn't imply unemployability. It just means that a person is no longer capable of doing the job they were hired for (submariners can't be on antidepressants). If the disability was caused by service, as in the case of PTSD, for example, then it's compensable. Anything short of 100% disability means the government expects you to work. A guy who works full time is no welfare queen, but a guy who sends a guy to the desert to be injured, fires him from his job because of that injury, and then says, "tough shit, deal with it your own damned self" is a buddy fucker unworthy of dolphins. Period. Can't be polite about this, anyone who takes that line is a total piece of shit.
2/23/2014 8:27 PM
Anyone who collects military retirement for life because he's a sad panda is a piece of shit. And that's what PTSD is -- a technical term for sad pandas.
Oh, he couldn't be on submarines after a professionally sanctioned drug dealer pushed experimental psychomeds on him? Boo fucking hoo. He knew that would happen before he swallowed the pill.
The fact that he's being paid for claiming that he has a fake disease spits on people who are actually disabled. He ought to be ashamed of himself and he brings discredit to the military and the submarine service.
2/23/2014 9:18 PM
So what are you then?
Active Duty or Retired? Because if your not either, STFU! You got out now get on with your life!
If your a Trident Fag, well that is pretty self explain your view.
2/23/2014 9:35 PM
^^^^^
No, he doesn't. The only one bringing discredit and spitting on people here is you. Begone, non-qualified troll.
KnotonMYwatch!
2/23/2014 10:00 PM
My comment was addressed to anon@2118. Not Jon Caspar.
KnotonMYwatch!
2/23/2014 10:12 PM
The one thing I do not miss from The Navy after I retired was the Know-It-Alls. Those people knew everything there was to know about everything. With no academic degree, formal training, or certification in the field they speak of. The higher they were in rank the more destructive and opinionated they were. They have a history of screwing with sailors needs and often putting their lives at risk as a result. When the cards fall and something catastrophic happens, those same assholes bark the famous line to protect their loser asses to NCIS or JAG "I didn't know!"
PTSD is a real thing, it is a very real thing that has disrupted many lives in military to include the submarine force. Despite the fact that we have been LUCKY not to lose a boat since the late 1960s, submariners have had some very hairy situations and close calls with lives lost.
Unless this asshole making the "Sad Panda" remarks is a Medical Doctor? Which I doubt, then he needs to shut his mouth and mind his own business. Another point as well, sailors have a difficult time doing, minding their own business.
If you are defending this asshole, your a bigger pos then him and only validate your ignorance to the rest of the world.
Blogs are a wonderful thing to express ideas, but it is also a hot bed for ignorance to run rapid with such vigilante treatment toward others.
2/23/2014 10:26 PM
When they send qualified submarine sailors over to the desert to be truck drivers and such and they get hurt it's on us to take care of them. I know the person and the circumstances in which he got injured. Ass clown that remarks about welfare queens should STFU!!
Served STS1/SS SSN694
2/23/2014 10:44 PM
Anon 9:18 sounds like the same ass hat that felt an E-5 could have changed he command structure of a boat in the 80's with and suffer no repercussions.
2/24/2014 8:26 AM
PTSD is a real thing, it is a very real thing that has disrupted many lives in military to include the submarine force. Despite the fact that we have been LUCKY not to lose a boat since the late 1960s, submariners have had some very hairy situations and close calls with lives lost.
Unless this asshole making the "Sad Panda" remarks is a Medical Doctor? Which I doubt, then he needs to shut his mouth and mind his own business. Another point as well, sailors have a difficult time doing, minding their own business.
A) PTSD is not a 'real thing.' It's called being upset that you saw some shit. That's life.
B) Even if you wanted to say PTSD was 'real,' it's not a fucking disability. A disability is something like when you have a limb blown off, when you are mentally retarded, when you have cerebral palsy, when you have parkinson's disease, when you can't hear anymore, when you can't see anymore, or when you're paralyzed, etc. It's not when you're a sad panda who saw some shit that you volunteered to see.
The FT2 in question knew exactly what would happen when he went to seek mental treatment for being in Iraq. He did it solely to get medical retirement benefits for life that he does not deserve. He's a piece of shit who leeches off the system. He's the lowest form of human.
2/24/2014 8:26 AM
Some anon said:
Just think, nukes, the gal that informed on the test chesting could be assigned to your boat soon. Should be rather interesting for you.
So what are you trying to say? That someone with integrity could soon be in the fleet? I guess they should send that person to a command that needs help, because integrity is the cornerstone of Naval Nuclear Power.
Also, this is the first I have heard that the cheating scandal was undone by a female. Does it matter if she is a she? I'd take a chick with integrity over some dude who qualified because he cheated on an exam any day.
2/24/2014 10:05 AM
Well we just all gettin' along ain't we?
2/24/2014 1:14 PM
Another one bites the dust...
CMDCM (formerly a GS) Yves Raynaud fired for .... wait for it! "undisclosed reasons"
The "new" PC term being punted around.
http://www.navytimes.com/article/20140224/NEWS/302240031/Little-Creek-CMC-fired-after-allegations-emerge
2/24/2014 1:31 PM
Deleted another comment. I think I'll try a non-controversial change of command story next.
2/24/2014 4:27 PM
@ Anon 8:26 AM:
What's causing gales of laughter over here is the SURE knowledge that all the "scared panda," "piece of shit," "lowest form of human" abuse language you've been throwing around like a 2 year-old that has rediscovered his own feces...is that this is inescapably how you feel about YOURSELF.
It's called "self-talk," scooter...that's why those words come so quickly to your own 'mind.'
What have YOU done to make you so much against YOURSELF, bubba...?
2/24/2014 5:40 PM
This episode has me interested in seeing if the DC area Sub Ball (where I'm sure SSP will be in attendance) will have entire tables sponsored by defense contractors who pay higher prices to subsidize the ball for sailors. I'm sure we found lawyers to provide "widely attended event" coverage, but common sense ethics tell you that it looks dirty every time you see Admirals and lobbyists hobnobbing.
I wonder if SECDEF's newfound interest in ethics will lead to any changes in "how we've always done things around here."
2/24/2014 8:04 PM
Hyman G. Rickover...our domestic nuclear fleet.
It’s the ideology, stupid!
2/25/2014 7:27 AM
Use your words, Mikey.
On second thought. ..
2/25/2014 9:22 AM
"This whole thread is a snoozer.
With apologies to Gary Larson, this whole episode strikes me as the contents of the following cartoon balloon:
"Blah, blah, blah, blah, BOOMER FAGS....blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, MORE BOOMER FAG STUFF GOES HERE, blah, blah, blah..."
You can substitute a few words on this and it'll pretty much describe this blog.
2/25/2014 11:57 AM
"This episode has me interested in seeing if the DC area Sub Ball (where I'm sure SSP will be in attendance) will have entire tables sponsored by defense contractors who pay higher prices to subsidize the ball for sailors"
It probably will. The issue isn't collecting money from contractors it is about correctly collecting money from contractors. There are rules in place for how this is to be done (how much, what circumstances, how to document it) that must be followed to 1) cover your own ass 2) remove the appearance of bribes. Failing to follow those procedures is stupid - and as the blog says the stupid shall be punished.
For an analogy: Taking vicodin with a prescription is not a problem, taking a few "spare" vicodin from someone is a one way ticket out of the Navy.
2/25/2014 5:35 PM
The SECDEF gets to choose who the DoD rubs elbows with; a base installation commander does not.
2/25/2014 8:05 PM
@ Anon 8:26 AM:
What's causing gales of laughter over here is the SURE knowledge that all the "scared panda," "piece of shit," "lowest form of human" abuse language you've been throwing around like a 2 year-old that has rediscovered his own feces...is that this is inescapably how you feel about YOURSELF.
It's called "self-talk," scooter...that's why those words come so quickly to your own 'mind.'
What have YOU done to make you so much against YOURSELF, bubba...?
Did an A-ganger finally find the internet?
Why are you so mad? Are you planning on seeking a psychologist about how mentally rough deployment was so you can get paid for life?
A more level-headed approach to the issue: PTSD is over-diagnosed by doctors who don't understand military service and who have confirmation bias -- you didn't walk into his office because you thought everything was A-OK. There are also many servicemembers (not saying that FT2 was necessarily one of them) who claim PTSD just to get the retirement benefits. To what extent either of the above cases occur remains to be seen because the nomenclature for the disorder is relatively new and it takes time to gather data/sample sizes.
It's also not a disability in that a person with PTSD can be a perfectly normally functioning member of society, as demonstrated by the FT2 being fully capable of working on his own.
Sure, FT2 et.al. can't be in the military anymore, but there are all sorts of things that can get someone medically DQ'ed from service that are not disabilities. A pilot can develop a chronic sinus condition or degraded vision. A submariner can take medicine for depression. Someone can fail 3 BCAs. None of those qualify as disabilities, so what makes PTSD worthy of a lifetime paycheck?
I will leave with this: The 2013 FY DoD budget allocated $150 billion to personnel costs. Of that, $50 billion went to medical costs and $55 billion went to retirement payments. About $20 billion goes to reservists and DoD civilians. Doing some rough radcon math, that leaves less than 1/3 of personnel funding for AD servicemembers and about 1.3% of the total Federal Budget.
In that same budget report is a recommendation to freeze AD pay because it has increased 90% since 2001 and to stand up a Congressional committee to reform retirement. It also wants to invoke fees for dependants on TRICARE to offset the medical costs that are spiralling out of control.
So whether you realize it or not, the people who are collecting disability for PTSD are taking money out of AD servicemembers' pockets. If you really think that's the best way to use the money, then fine. I won't try to convince you otherwise. But just recognize that this is a zero-sum game for you, and when you're paying hundreds if not thousands of dollars a year in up-front fees for your dependents' medical care in 5-10 years so FT2 et al can continue to collect disability for PTSD and see a psychologist for free, well, I told you so.
2/26/2014 8:51 AM
I guess I fall into being a non-sensitive Prick.
Look at the numbers! We cannot sustain carrying everyone on the budget because they got their feelings hurt during a war. It happens!! Wipe your pussy and move on!!!
Another thing that pisses me off are all the asshats out there claiming %30 for Sleep Apnea. Give me a fucking break!!! They should be paying me for having to listen to your FAT ASS snore for years!!!
People collecting benefits for sleep apnea and PTSD are no better than the crack whore on welfare.
2/27/2014 10:10 AM
I feel like you are unaware that the VA is funded separately from the DoD. It's not taking anything from anyone active duty because they are appropriated separately.
2/27/2014 10:33 PM
You are correct that the there is a separate Dept of VA. But you are implying that a rift exists between the two that isn't there, and policy makers lump them together when they talk about 'defense spending.'
"On April 9, 2009, President Obama directed that the Department and the Veteran’s Affairs (VA)
“work together to define and build a system that will ultimately contain administrative and
medical information from the day an individual enters military service throughout their military
career, and after they leave the military.”"
The DoD and VA even do some cost sharing for the benefits we are talking about.
So while you are correct that there is a separate Dept of VA, you are incorrect in surmising that means that medical costs for retired servicemembers and disability payments are not going to impact the compensation of AD servicemembers.
2/27/2014 11:15 PM
https://www.cbo.gov/publication/44993
Read this article from the CBO about decreasing military health care costs.
Notice particularly this passage:
Medical costs of recent wars. Although DoD has received supplemental funding for combat-related medical care, that funding has been relatively small and should decrease as operations end and as service members who participated in those operations separate from the military and transition to other sources of health care, including the Veterans Health Administration.
It is true that the VA competes with DoD spending, in that, there are only so many federal dollars to go around and in some sense all of the federal programs are competing with each other, but they are not appropriated together, the VA is not a subset of the DoD budget, and the two departments are managed completely separately.
You could make a statement that says something like "if SNAP spending goes too high, this will take money from our troops" or "If Department of Education spending goes too high, this will take money from AD troops". VA spending is NOT Defense Spending.
More fun facts: They are managed by separate subcommittees in the Senate and the House. They do share some membership, but the overall make up is different. Less than half of the Defense Subcommittee members in the Senate currently sit on the Defense committee as well. There is more overlap in the Senate than the house, presumably because the Senate is 1/3 the size
3/02/2014 8:26 AM
If the below excerpt is the case then what is the problem here? Were we to fire everyone in the Navy that has had titty bar affiliation we would be screwed. Can only hope that there is more to this story than we are being made aware of.
"The circumstances in question are not related to NOTU's mission. Safety, security and integrity have not been compromised. No impact on NOTU's ability to continue their mission is expected..."
3/06/2014 2:52 PM
@ anonymous 3/02/2014 8:02:
You're ignoring the fact that since both the VA and DoD concern the military, that general and flag officers are advisors on policy that concern both. That is where the link is.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/03/05/pentagon-outlines-increased-tricare-fee-proposal.html
You can keep pretending that these costs are not inter-related just because they are under different administrative organizations, but you would be wrong.
3/07/2014 4:25 PM
Re: 1:29 / Kerry
You sound just as bad as the libs who attack John McCain's service record.
Put aside the vitriol for a second and compare the most heroic action you witnessed on the boat to this: the PC takes an rpg hit, hostiles close aboard, machinegun jams, so CO beaches the PC, jumps out, and runs the enemy down and kills them himself. Only similar story I could compare to from the boat would be in-port midnight tiger team raiding the zero's cheesecakes.
Mbo
3/25/2014 6:30 PM
FT2 isn't on VA disability for PTSD unless he saw combat, IED strike on augment, etc.. Nobody can claim PTSD from the boat and be approved by VA. As for this sad panda shit, spoken like a true warrior ... who only fought the war on dirt. War fucks people up--but you wouldn't know, because the closest you got was your Band of Brothers Blu-Ray box set or TADS video off the sipr.
Mbo
3/25/2014 6:38 PM
My letter to the Vice Admiral and his Staff:
I served with LT. J.P. Heatherington on the USS Hammerhead and he is the reason I extended my stay in the U.S. Navy.
Vice Adm. Benedict and Staff,
(On the off chance that this will make it beyond the PAO)
You should be ashamed of yourselves. Captain J.P. Heatherington was and still is a model for Naval officers that you should hold in high regard.
As a sailor that enjoyed a successful and rewarding Navy career because of the example of a junior LT. Heatherington, I find it despicable, that you would wipe your feet on his career and legacy just so you don’t have to face the uncomfortable position of having to defend him against the politically correct hordes that continue to weaken and destroy our Navy and Military services.
To this day and for as long as I have breath in my body, I will continue to tell young people to look up to and follow the example of people like JP, and to fight to their very core everything that you stand for. Enjoy those stars and any additional ones you may wear, for you wear them at the expense of a great man and the future of the United States Navy.
The correct response should have been, “There is nothing wrong with a charity fundraiser regardless of the profession of the patriots who participate.” And furthermore, “Anyone who wants to throw stones at how our sailors choose to spend their time are more than welcome to pick up a gun and stand a post…” I hope you know the rest of that great speech.
Mr. Heatherington deserves nothing less than a public apology from yourself and the CNO for questioning his, leadership, integrity and decision making ability. I would say that he should be reinstated, however, I would not wish a sentence, of such a great man, to be forced to continue to serve under a command that doesn't have his back.
You deserve the Navy that you are creating and when we suffer a great defeat due to the spineless nature of ‘your’ culture, you will live with the enduring legacy of playing a direct role in the decline of the world’s greatest Navy and the country it serves.
Sincerely disappointed,
Jason
Radioman
Submarine Service
Proud shipmate and friend of Captain J.P. Heatherington
3/26/2014 8:05 PM
JP was my CO on the Denafish. my divsion had a great trust and respect for JP. I have only had to CO's in my 18yr's that I would go to the front door of hell with a squirt gun clearing the way for them both. It's a sad shame that suck a great leader was aloud to fail and no one had his back.
To JP I would proudly serve with you agian leading the division of most talented group of LLM..
3/31/2014 9:48 AM
Post a Comment
<< Home