Keeping the blogosphere posted on the goings on of the world of submarines since late 2004... and mocking and belittling general foolishness wherever it may be found. Idaho's first and foremost submarine blog. (If you don't like something on this blog, please E-mail me; don't call me at home.)

Monday, February 10, 2014

Controversial Topics

I ended up closing comments on the previous thread because people mentioned names of people who weren't in the news in a negative light, which is one of the very few commenting rules we have here on TSSBP. In addition, there was one commenter who spoofed an active duty Submariner (using the Submariners name as the commenter "name"), which is completely out of bounds. Since I allow anonymous commenting, I can't "ban" anyone from commenting, but if I could, that guy would be gone.

Let's see how we do on some other potentially controversial stories in the news:

1) USS Scranton (SSN 756) tried 8 hour watches to get a 24 hour "day" on the boat. Here's a story about how it went.

2) Do abusive leaders get promoted in the Navy? The answer may shock you! (Yes, I did the click-bait "answer may shock you" intentionally because I think it's funny when websites say that in the lede.) REMEMBER: When telling sea stories about abusive leaders, NO NAMES! Come up with something clever like "He Who Must Not Be Named" (although you can't use that one, because I've already claimed that for one SUBRON 11 boat CO I served under in the early '90s).

3) Iran is claiming they're sending a "fleet" (consisting of a 45 year old destroyer and a "helicopter carrier" that is really an oiler/repair ship that has a single helo landing pad) near the U.S. maritime border. Various commenters claim that the President is somehow weak if he doesn't sink them in international waters because if he doesn't it proves Obama is a Muslim or something. [Seriously, why is it that otherwise reasonable people -- including some Submariners -- seem to lose all perspective and rationality where President Obama is concerned?] Personally, I think the odds of them making it past the equator are fairly low without one of the vessels needing to be taken under tow, but they might surprise us, in which case the 2nd Fleet TF 80 might get some excellent training opportunities.

Bell-ringer 0640 11 Feb: Changed "2nd Fleet" to "TF 80", as I'd forgotten C2F had been disestablished a couple years ago. That's what happens when you've been out of the Navy for too long, you tend to forget things like that.


Anonymous Anonymous said...

As to point 3, I'm pretty sure a boat is just waiting to follow the Iranian ships and have some practice time.

2/10/2014 5:15 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can guarantee several firing solutions have been calculated before they even left port

2/10/2014 5:22 PM

Anonymous Bob Saget said...

Second Fleet no longer exist.

2/10/2014 5:23 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

1) I'd definitely welcome this.

2) The article posts a lot of anecdotal evidence. I'd like to see some hard data on the topic. There is really not much a subordinate can do to let people know that he has a bad boss, but it's like that in many civilian companies, too. Yes, you can 'just quit' a civilian job until you have a mortgage, kids, etc. that can't just go unpaid.

Also, I encourage people to watch videos of how Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Mark Zuckerberg treat(ed) their collegues and subordinates. They would make many abusive COs cry, and then fire them for it.

On a lower level, when I worked at a supermarket I had a boss who didn't know how to speak to anyone without yelling and swearing. She stuck around the place longer than I did, but the point is that bad bosses exist everywhere.

I've always felt like my chain of command was looking out for their subordinates best interest while still meeting mission tasking. I could just be lucky, or these horror stories could be a minority of COs.

3) k.

2/10/2014 6:07 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

As a gesture of goodwill, let send the Iranian fleet(the Iranians say fleets, but that's hyperbole) a supply of barf bags and an offer of shore leave. Suggest JB concert tickets for every member of the crew .

2/10/2014 6:14 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Re. the 'new' 24-hr schedule idea:

Whenever us oh-so-smart guys in the nuclear submarine navy might ever get a big head about being intelligent, just remember this: we forced people onto an 18-hr day while living on a 24-hr earth...for decades...and then figured out that a 24-hr day might just have some merit to it, and announced that discovery like we'd discovered that the earth was round.

Stupid is as stupid does...and 'we' did this to ourselves for way, way, way too long.


2/10/2014 6:34 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

[...] claim that the President is somehow weak if he doesn't sink them in international waters because if he doesn't it proves Obama is a Muslim or something. [Seriously, why is it that otherwise reasonable people -- including some Submariners -- seem to lose all perspective and rationality where President Obama is concerned?]

Nice strawman, Joel. You set up a ridiculous claim that you say "the Other" will make, then you refute it as ridiculous. I've only heard the progressive left pretend that that is a serious argument (aside from a few conspiracy nuts on the right).

No, I dislike him for his socialist policies and tyrannical style of rule. IRS targeting (see the latest email regarding under-the-table rules creation?), Fast and Furious, Benghazi, creating the DREAM act by fiat when it failed to pass as law, bringing the (self-admitted) communist truther van Jones into his administration (remember the outcry on that one?), closing down open-air federal memorials during the partial government holiday to make people 'feel the pain', trying to close down STATE memorials during the partial government holiday, illegally declaring congress in recess to appoint some stooges to the NLRB. Not to mention his foreign policy hiccups like failing to get the security agreement with Iraq, helping to turn Libya into a morass of extremism, the 'red line' fiasco in Syria, and the jury's out on this Iran deal. Did he help Iran get the bomb? Did strike a blow for peace? The Israelis and Saudis are waiting with baited breath! There is PLENTY to dislike about the guy, aside from his politics and religion.

That being said, I hope the Iranians do make it out here, and I hope they try and play some cold-war style games and I hope they end up hitting each other and sinking. Hilarity!

2/10/2014 7:19 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

One glaring mistake in the above commentary: it's bated breath...not baited.

"Spelling -1"

Overall Score: 99

2/10/2014 7:23 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wouldn't be so critical of it. I can see how someone way back when arrived at 6 hour watches as the final answer...

Way back in the day before nuke boats there were just port/stbd watches. But they didn't have to do QA surveillances, monitor watches, GMT on trafficking in persons, etc. They got off watch and were generally bored, and the ones who had experienced excitement hoped it stayed boring.

So once boats got big enough to handle a 3-section rotation, you had a conundrum: 4, 6, or 8 hour watches?

You do 4 hour watches and you barely have any time to sleep before you get back on watch, and turning over the watch rotation that frequency gets cumbersome.

You do 8 hour watches and people get fatigued and inattentive, plus is it the best ORM practice to have chow reliefs in the middle of every watch? Not to mention that on an 8 hour schedule, how do you ensure that everyone gets a crack at drills?

Enter 6 hour watches as a compromise between both of the above. A longer block of sleep that doesn't have to solve any of the logistical challenges of 8 hour watches, and the crew can just learn to suck up an 18 hour day.

It may not have been the best solution, but I can understand how reasonably intelligent decisionmakers could come up with such a scheme.

I predict that eight hour watches will last as long as it takes for an incident report to point to chow reliefs or inattentiveness in the 7th hour of watch as a root cause. Then the chow reliefs will require full-blown tours and turnovers which will take away any time saved by doing an 8 hour rotation in the first place.

2/10/2014 7:32 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

No, I dislike him for his socialist policies and tyrannical style of rule.

I find his policies no more or less socialist than his 3 predecessors, and his 'rule' is no more or less tyrannical than his 4 predecessors and certainly much less tyrannical than Nixon's, LBJ's, and FDR's. For crying out loud, FDR actually had concentration camps set up in America for Japanese immigrants/citizens -- it doesn't get much more tyrannical than that.

America produces very centrist Presidents for the most part. When you say these things, you just sound like a reactionary Republican who hates Obama just for being in a different political party.

I think Joel would agree, which is why he wrote what he did.

2/10/2014 8:08 PM

Blogger KellyJ said...

It will be interesting to see how long the "8 hour watch, 1 drillset at random times pre-announced" lasts during ORSE workup.
The other rhythm our bodies have developed is to eat at roughly 4-6hour intervals with our sleep period being a non-eating time hence the word Break-Fast). It will be interesting to see the long term effects of eating 2 meals a day at 8 hour intervals; Wake at 0000, eat meal, on watch.
Off watch at 0800, eat. Maintenance/training/etc until 1500 or so, sleep.
Wake at 0000, start over.
Unless the cooks have some sort of "snacks" running 24 hrs so a sailor can grab a sandwich or something as a pseudo-dinner before hitting the rack.

2/10/2014 8:23 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Had the Houston pass through on her way home and talked to a old Guam friend. They were running a version of the 8 hour watch bill and the crew loved it. I don't know the specifics though.
As for the iranian fleet, invite them in for a beer ball game and serve bacon wrapped beer brauts and pulled pork sammitches.


2/10/2014 9:53 PM

Anonymous Doug @ The-Military-Guide said...

Perhaps the good general from MDA will soon have astroturfed all evidence that he was ever a toxic leader.

Apparently we don't have a leadership problem, we just have an image-management problem.

2/10/2014 10:07 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Iranian ships would have no need to approach the equator to get to either US coast.

2/10/2014 10:21 PM

Blogger Bubblehead said...

They do if they're going via the Cape of Good Hope (as this group is apparently doing, according to statements by the Iranian Navy).

2/10/2014 10:33 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

As far as this Iranian fleet, the easiest solution I can think of is to have two Los Angeles class boats that are about to be decommissioned bump into them. We're already pretty good at collisions, and Obama is good enough at PR that he can downplay it to prevent a war. I have always fantasized about a small nuke boat with a much stronger hull that went back to the ramming technique of triremes. I wonder how much cheaper it would be.

2/11/2014 12:26 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

As a submariner currently serving with the Norwegian navy, I must admit that I'm a bit surprised it took the US Navy this long to adopt the 8-hour watch rotation.

We've been doing 8-hour watches on our boats for a while now, and we've found it to be far more effective than the previous 6-hour watch system. People get a chance to rest when they're off-watch, the biological daily rhythm isn't that messed up, and generally when people get a chance to sleep for 6.5-7 hours as compared to 4.5-5 hours, they are more rested and alert when on watch.

The way we solve the eating issue mentioned by KellyJ is to have three meals a day (breakfast, dinner, supper), overlapping with the watch turnovers. This way, the ongoing watch eats, and then takes over the watch, and then lets the offgoing watch eat. This way, you go on watch being rested and fed, meaning that you can keep going for eight hours until the next meal.

We do not operate with 30-minute "snack breaks" in the middle of the 8-hour watch. Instead, we have the cook (or his assistant) come around the various watch stations with fruit or biscuits about halfway into the 8-hour watch, giving the crew on watch a little "pick-me-up" to keep them going.

From talking with US submariners, it is my understanding that you generally man a single station throughout the watch. We rotate between watch stations every two hours, to keep people alert and to facilitate quick toilet breaks between rotations. Maybe this might be something worth looking into on US boats?

Just so it's mentioned, drills are still being held at random intervalls and times, although they tend to be near the beginning or end of a watch (though not always)!

In closing, Dolphin 38!

2/11/2014 5:36 AM

Blogger Bubblehead said...

Anonymous @ 1919: See, those are reasonable reasons to dislike him (although I'm not sure what you don't like about his religion -- although it's certainly OK to not like someone for being a Christian, I suppose). I don't like a lot of his policies and administrative procedures; I voted for McCain and Romney, so he was never my first choice either. What concerns me are the Submariners, including some of my old shipmates, who don't just dislike his Administration's amateur hour approach to Benghazi -- they think that he conspired with al Qaeda to get Ambassador Stevens kidnapped so he could trade him for the Blind Sheikh. It's fine to say the IRS targeting of TEA Party groups was unfair (although, can you honestly say that those groups were formed absent a major intention to attempt to influence elections?), it's unreasonable to think that it was a policy ordered by the President in an attempt to steal the 2012 election. I mean, c'mon, the Democrats spent the entire 2012 cycle trying to tie Republican candidates to TEA Party ideas -- politically, they would have wanted these groups making as much noise as possible. It's OK to oppose his policies as socialistic -- my problem is with those who think that he's some sort of Manchurian Candidate who's main goal is to destroy America so it can be taken over by Muslims or something, and who was chosen by a cabal of secret Jews led by "Soros" despite his birth in Kenya because that helps him destroy America and institute Sharia Law (except the gay parts) or something equally ridiculous, and that he'll overturn the 22nd Amendment by Executive Order.
Re: Van Jones, it was a good thing that his firing established the precedent that all Truthers are unfit for government service. I expect the next Republican Administration will institute a similar rule for Birthers.

2/11/2014 6:52 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

-- they think that he conspired with al Qaeda to get Ambassador Stevens kidnapped so he could trade him for the Blind Sheikh. -BH 6:52 AM

The theory was first posited by a retired admiral (and former deputy CNO) who has maintained ties with Adm McRaven's community. Something smelly is being covered up; take your pick, but lets not pretend submariners should be silent or dumb because a woman who shamelessly claims, "What difference does it make, now!".

2/11/2014 8:10 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Regarding 8-hour watchstanding, the only new thing about it is doing it is it is 2 back-to-back 4s. Until the 1970s, sub sailors were standing 2 four-hour watches in a 24-hour day. With almost twice as many SSNs at sea then than now, there were fewer sub collisions. Although other root causes were highlighted by related boards of inquiry, Inattentiveness connected with disturbance of crew rest (circadian rythms) had been suspected as a major impediment to decision-making

2/11/2014 8:25 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Iranians are taking the long way around to the U.S. East coast. What is the short way? That would be the route from the naval base they are financing on the Mediterranean coast.

2/11/2014 8:46 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Abusive leader--no name, but nickname--"Wild Bill."

Back in the day, Wild Bill stepped on everyone and anyone he could. The problem wasn't really that he abused people, but that he reveled in abusing people. Talk about a guy who needed to read "How to Win Friends and Influence People."

Wild Bill rode our boat for a week, badgering and belittling his aide the entire time. Although the aide tried to shrug it off, it had to get old after about 30 seconds. I wonder if Wild Bill had his aide frisked every morning for dangerous weapons before Wild Bill lit into him?

2/11/2014 9:09 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

@anon 2/11/2014 12:26 AM

Now where could we find "Ramming Speed" on the bell? LOL

2/11/2014 9:58 AM

Blogger wtfdnucsailor said...

Since we have gone a bit political here, I will take the other side from many posters - 1)Benghazi- State Department faulted for insufficient security in report (also note that the House of Representatives cut the Security budget for the State Department). The nearest military help was at Aveno Air Base in Northern Italy, back in the day we had two carriers in the Med that could provide immediate support. It was a tragedy but not the disaster made out by the Republican and Fox news supporters. 2) IRS - It should be noted that the IRS also targeted some "left wing" organizations. The real problem was mid level IRS employees trying to find an easy way to identify organizations that did not meet the criteria of the tax code, it was not politically driven. 3) ACA or Obamacare - Web site roll out a disaster. Legislation needs fixing because Obama chose a "Heritage Foundation" solution that kept the insurance companies in business rather than the favored Democratic solution of single payer (Medicare for all). That is hardly Socialist. 4) Government shutdown - Solely the responsibility of the Tea Party wing of the House of Representatives. National Parks are not a vital service that must be kept running. I could go on but I won't.
To bring the discussion back to topic - I barely had a six hour bladder in my days standing watch. The medical types seem to agree that an eight hour watch with a short break in the middle is the most efficient.

2/11/2014 11:52 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said... Obama or the Democrats at fault for anything? How many Republicans voted for Obamacare? How many times have the Republicans changed or altered Obamacare? Don't blame your bladder on not being able to handle a six hour watch, blame your vagina!

2/11/2014 12:10 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Iranian mini convoy warrants being tracked and continuously targeted because they are a foreign power with newly developing nuke capability. A rag tag motley couple of boats can easily launch an EMP over the east coast effectively and with severe damage to our country. People, especially military experienced, should be aware of this.

2/11/2014 12:16 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Socialism: a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies (webster)

It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a nuke to google the term, but it does take a certain willfully ignorant (note: I do not say organically ignorant - they can be excused...) type of individual to throw out a term like socialist without any true understanding of the term.

Show me the corporate ventures he's permanently nationalized and then you have a point. Otherwise, why make it so easy for people to make fun of your POV?

*before you jump - the ACA is not an example of socialism. It is a huge giveaway to the insurance industry. It does expand Medicaid. I'll give you that. However, that is no more socialist than social security and medicare part D (a conservative initiative).

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story - MTwain

2/11/2014 12:22 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow wtfdnucsailor. The budget for the security in Benghazi was not cut by Republicans. The Republicans were against the President's proposed budget for the State Department. There is a huge difference between being against a proposed budget and cutting an actual budget.

But let's forget about that. When Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Charlene Lamb was asked specifically if budget cuts were responsible for the lack of security in Benghazi, this is how the exchange between her and Rep. Rohrabacher went 10/10/2012:

QUESTION: It has been suggested that budget cuts were responsible for a lack of security in Benghazi. And I'd like to ask Ms. Lamb, you made this decision personally. Was there any budget consideration and lack of budget which led you not to increase the number of people in the security force there?
QUESTION: So there's not a budget problem. It's not you all don't have the money to do this?
LAMB: Sir, it's a volatile situation. We will move assets to cover that.

wtfdnucsailor: if you would like the video of this let me know. How do you blame the Republicans for top level officials in the State Department denying Ambassador Steven's numerous request for additional security in the months leading up to his death?

2/11/2014 12:36 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

A terror attack in a foreign land is 100% Obama's fault, yet a terror attack on US soil was 100% not Bush's fault.

In other news, Republicans are still madder at Obama for Benghazi than they are at those who actually killed our people.

2/11/2014 1:12 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm calling bullshit on the eight hour watch routine. It's pretty obvious this is an effort to cut costs and has nothing to do with better performance. As pointed out above, Western civilization typically eats three meals per day during an approximate 12 hour period, spaced four to six hours apart. Now some doofus has come up with a plan that spaces meals eight hours apart, and configures them such that, if you want to sleep, you will miss one of those meals. Additionally, unless drills, training etc. is severely curtailed, when one's sleep is interrupted (notice "when," and not "if"), one has eight hours of watch to endure rather than just six.

2/11/2014 1:24 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I thought it was a demonstration caused by a video, not a terrorist attack. I'm confused.

2/11/2014 1:41 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I thought it was a demonstration caused by a video, not a terrorist attack. I'm confused.

And if that is what bothers you, I suspect there's a whole lot your confused about.

2/11/2014 2:08 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

It amazes me that six years into Obama's reign where we actually have hard evidence of his disastrous policies, there are dopes out there STILL willing to defend him. Facts are apparently lost on a whole lot of you poor SOBs.

2/11/2014 4:18 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

House Armed Services Committee just released it report on the Benghazi incident. To nobody's surprise, with the probable exception of Fox and followers, it largely affirms the administration and New York Times account of the incident.

2/11/2014 4:23 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Facts are apparently lost on a whole lot of you poor SOBs." Anon 4:18 PM

Judging by the coverups to date, we have only seen the tip of the scandal iceberg at this point. If the administration ever allows AG Holder to step down as Panetta nad Hillary already have, a whole new can of worms is going to have to buried. Here's the rub, whoever takes Holder's place will have to be more unscrupulous than he.

As old habits die hard, and some Chicago-ilk lawyer (another Valerie Jarrett favorite) would replace Holder, the transparency of accelerating coverups is going to be too much for even Republican senators to swallow.

Personally, I hope this corrupt administration does allow Holder to resign.

Remember what happened on Janet Napolitano's watch? Had she been a sub CO after Boston she would have been fired.

2/11/2014 6:04 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

-- they think that he conspired with al Qaeda to get Ambassador Stevens kidnapped so he could trade him for the Blind Sheikh. -BH 6:52 AM

The theory was first posited by a retired admiral (and former deputy CNO) who has maintained ties with Adm McRaven's community. Something smelly is being covered up; take your pick, but lets not pretend submariners should be silent or dumb because a woman who shamelessly claims, "What difference does it make, now!".

Mostly this just proves that you can in fact be vice CNO and be a complete idiot.

2/11/2014 6:56 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

To those that are really focused on fake political scandals, I hope you are not active duty... for you are the people who create the drama on ships. Cool off and get a hobby. Obama is not the anti-Christ and neither was Bush. The county is in ok shape and we'll be just fine. Sometimes our country needs leftist policies and other times it needs policies more from the right. Neither party is the "correct" party. Recommend you turn off cable news and spend more time with your family.

2/11/2014 8:06 PM

Blogger KellyJ said...

wtfdnuc: Lets take your points as you laid out.
1)Benghazi- As noted; State Department already admitted their were no Budgetary issues. But if their were Budgetary concerns certainly State could have forgone a fleet of Chevy Volts and a $100,000 charging station in Vienna in exchange for Security, na?
"The nearest military help was at Aveno Air Base in Northern Italy"
Perhaps, many of us are not privy to whatever SOF groups are operating in theatre. Regardless, just because Aveano is a tad far...does that excuse not even trying? Not even putting forces on standby?
Of course the ultimate question of Benghazi is not about the attack. We all know and understand in this age terrorism will always strike. The issue was the blatant lie, for Political purposes during an election, the Administration engaged in with the US Citizenry for several weeks.
2) IRS - It should be noted that the IRS also targeted some "left wing" organizations.
Name one that was subjected to the extensive (and illegal) questions the IRS demanded of Conservative groups. Name a single Liberal who was personally harassed by multiple Federal Agencies after filing their paperwork.
Mid Level Employees? That who "Cincinnati" thing is a bigger farce than the Benghazi Movie.
3) ACA or Obamacare - Web site roll out a disaster.
Yes. Because an inept company was selected based on nepotism rather than a top line company that already volunteered to build the website gratis. Hundreds of millions p1ssed away on a website that failed. Where is the call for an audit of where MY money went?
"Legislation needs fixing because Obama chose a "Heritage Foundation" solution"
Wrong! Obama chose nothing. The final Bill was crafted in the Senate, passed with back room midnight dealing, dumped on the House just as a filibuster voter (Scott Brown) showed up in the Senate, then was passed through the reconciliation procedure.
Obama wanted something to sign and did not give a rats butt what was in it.
And as we now see, it did not matter since he is now unilaterally deciding which parts of the Law he will enforce, which he will not, and which he will change.
Would you accept such brazen defiance of Constitutional Procedure from GWB?
4) Government shutdown - Solely the responsibility of the Tea Party wing of the House of Representatives.
Yep. And its about time an adult showed up in DC and started demanding an end to Deficits of over a Trillion Dollars every year.
Would you run your business or household the same way Congress runs their Budgets?

2/11/2014 8:16 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

wtfdnuc, that was Democrat shilling at its finest.

1) Nobody intelligent is complaining that a consipiracy occurred; what people are upset about is twofold:

a) That senior officials within the administration overlooked indications that threats were increasing and were not held accountable for this.

b) That senior officials on the ground mismanaged the situation post-attack and were not held accountable for this.

c) That the Presidential administration mislabeled the event in order to make it seem like terrorism was not an issue in the 2012 election.

I don't know if the President has a hand in how embassies are staffed with DoD assets. I suspect not and I would not expect him to be involved in the process unless something special were occurring to raise its importance, so I don't blame him for not seeing the future and allocating more personnel to Libya pre-attack. I do blame him for misleading the public and not holding people within his administration accountable for their incompetence post-attack, and I do hold him responsible for hiring people who are more concerned about party image than ensuring the safety of Americans.

2) What the IRS did was wrong to single out a political group, but it's important to note that the Tea Party was actually committing tax fraud.

2/11/2014 8:30 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

3) ACA is Obama's baby. There's no way to spin this. The fact that it is a handout to private insurance companies was a concession made to get overwhelming Democratic support because the Obama administration knew that he would get few, if any, Republicans to vote for the bill. There are very few Democrats sitting in Congress who will vote for single-payer healthcare because too much campaign money comes from the status quo on both sides. I don't think you understand how completely broken American healthcare is, and the nature of American political structure makes it virtually impossible to enact meaningful reforms without a crisis occurring.

4) Both parties had a hand in the government shutdown - the inability to pass a budget spans several years. Both parties are guilty of procrastinating a resolution until the 11th hour.

2/11/2014 8:34 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

How did the manage chow on the 8 hr schedule?

2/11/2014 9:04 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon @ 8:30 PM:

As for Benghaaazziiiiiii:
1a) They probably did not react adequately to warning signs, but hindsight is 20/20. There were warning signs for 9/11 too, but nobody wanted to impeach Bush (well, for THAT anyway).
1b) This is definitely NOT true. Not even Congress is saying this anymore. Read the report released today.
1c) This didn't happen either and relies on people splitting hairs saying that saying something is "An Act of Terror" is well different from saying something is "Terrorism". I'm not buying that, and neither did most Americans in 2012.

2) They didn't single out ONLY Tea Party groups. Tea Party was only one of the types of groups that they audited. I believe "Occupy" groups were another. IMO, this sounds kind of even handed.

3) I also don't really like the ACA, but still prefer it to nothing. As you mention, it's a big accomplishment to get ANYTHING done with health care.

4) Not really... Only one side was demanding something just to keep the government open.

2/11/2014 9:31 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Save your breath. As long as the right continues to believe that fox news and talk radio are accurate news sources you'll never get past the daily talking points for Benghazi and Obamacare.

2/11/2014 9:57 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Save your breath. As long as the left continues to believe that ABCNBCCBSMSNBC and the morning talk shows are accurate news sources you'll never get past, well, anything really.

2/11/2014 10:53 PM

Blogger KellyJ said...

No breath left to save.
We have a POTUS who defies the separation of powers as laid out in the Constitution and blatantly lies to the Citizenry time and again. We have a petulant Congress so busy blaming the other side the inkwell of Legislation has become a vial of poison. Ambassadorships are based less on actual knowledge of complex details like the location, language, and core Government of a Nation, but on Political patronage. Military Readiness is based not so much on good aim and sound logistics, but on how well the latest Social Fad can be forced on an institution whose core foundation is Conservative by necessity. Our media has become a polarized camp where each side believes in the absolute legitimacy of their view and refuses to acknowledge any fault or failing from "their side." Politics have become lifelong career choices with unscrupulous individuals robbing the treasury blind, then blaming the Citizen for not giving enough.
Our education system has become institutionalized to the point our children may learn enough math to balance a check book, but are never taught the economic skills to actually balance that checkbook.
And We The People, who just want to be left alone to leave our children in a better state than our parents left us, are bombarded day after day with the fallacious memes of the day. Every crisis is dire and imminent. Every failing is someone else's fault. Every solution can be found thru the Authoritarian tyranny of a new Law (which may or may not actually be implemented as passed).

2/12/2014 12:25 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ KellyJ... Exactly how is this any different than any other time in our history? Calm down... it's going to be ok. I suggest you give up politics for a few months, you may have an addiction that can result in unhealthy consequences (stress, worry, anxiety, etc.). Our country and military are just fine. Vote and work hard to change the things you can in the military (if you're active duty) and don't worry so much. Focusing so much on useless (and often faceless) political talking points is nonsensical.

2/12/2014 1:23 AM

Blogger Curt said...


Feel better, now??

2/12/2014 2:27 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wah!!!!! I'm going to miss a meal. I'll be tired from playing video, training, PMS, (insert any other B.S. excuse). You get SUB pay for a reason buttercup.(look up the definition of arduous conditions) You don't like it vote with your feet. As for all the armchair bubbleheads that think they know what's best for us active duty guys STFU and collect your retirement check. You guys messed up just as much as we do now.

2/12/2014 6:05 AM

Anonymous MentalJim said...

Discussion of Obama's "reign of error" has certainly put the brakes on people discussing and bitching about other active duty folks here. I too am amazed that there is anyone that still defends Obama or that there are folks out there who voted for him and don't think they made a mistake. That being said McCain or Romney would not be any better.

2/12/2014 7:55 AM

Anonymous Gunnutmegger said...

wtfdnucsailor: "2) IRS - It should be noted that the IRS also targeted some "left wing" organizations."


2/12/2014 8:02 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

For all these people bitching about our president and our military... Can you point me towards a better system. Is there another country or military that you would rather be in? Our country/military is absolutely the best. You all sound like Seahawk players bitching about how bad their coach is. Fact is, you should be 100% thankful that you were born in THIS country and served THIS military. Bunch of bitchy ass whiner bitches... have some pride or move out of the country!

2/12/2014 8:07 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know I get all my unbiased news from

And the circlejerk continues...

2/12/2014 9:12 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"And the circlejerk continues..."

Sez the Leftist faggot.

2/12/2014 12:24 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Wah!!!!! I'm going to miss a meal. I'll be tired from playing video, training, PMS, (insert any other B.S. excuse). You get SUB pay for a reason buttercup.(look up the definition of arduous conditions) You don't like it vote with your feet."

Coner Yes-Man, right? Probably even khaki-pants.

2/12/2014 12:26 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

At anon 8:07

After a short exchange tour on the Trafalgar in the late 80's I would serve in the royal navy in a heart beat those guys do some neat stuff and don't have to deal with all the pansy a** nonsense, you do your job, get your pay and have your ration.

2/12/2014 3:04 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, and the back-and-forth political nonsense is fun and all, but I have a question for the masses along the same vein as the locked-up thread:

Why is there a guy in Bangor doing a 3rd COB tour? Specifically, a guy who's done an SSN and SSGN and until recently was the NSSC CMC is now on one of the SSBN's. The guy who WAS on that boat seemed like a solid guy, so I don't want to jump the gun, but would Bangor really be above firing a guy on the sly?

(Spoiler alert: No, they would not)

2/12/2014 5:39 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"How did the manage chow on the 8 hr schedule?"

They tend to do chow breaks, 15 minutes ish to grab a midrats-esque bite to eat.

Although doing this detracts from a lot of the time you save in shifting to 8 hours to begin with.

Foreign Navies that do it have the cooks bring their watchstanders a snack mid-watch.

If the solution is 'suck it up,' I'd personally rather be always tired than always hungry. Something tells me that 6 hours of sleep in 16-18% oxygen doesn't rejuvinate you quite as good as some people make it seem.

2/12/2014 5:52 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's that kind of inbreeding in Bangor that perpetuates a lot of the politics out here. The same group of Master Chiefs and other senior folks who never leave the area and stay here for years forming and perpetuating the well established "good old boys network" or "Master Chief Mafia" or whatever you want to call it, along with the insane politics, and the other long established officer and enlisted political groups that Bangor is so well known for. When someone senior does come into the area they are usually already friends with at least one or two of the locals and have no desire to change the status quo. We don't have enough senior people going out of the geographic area at a rate high enough to bring in enough fresh blood to change they way business is done around here. Short of scattering the senior folks around, nothing is likely to change. But if they DID scatter the folks around here across the Fleet, would it make things better, or only spread and perpetuate the problem?

2/12/2014 6:01 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some of you people are going way overboard about mafias and politics. Each Master Chief answers to some type of CO. There are checks and balances built into the system, more so than in the civilian world. If you think this is bad, civilian employment is 1000 times worse. As for the recent firings... You have to factor in the quantity of COBs in the region compared to other bases. Also, the difficulty in manning the large quantity of COBs in the area (which sometimes require the pushing of someone through their COB quals when they may not be 100% ready). It's not an easy game and sometimes mistakes are made, plain and simple.

2/12/2014 6:42 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

In terms of making a bad COB in a rush, you're right, that does happen from time to time, sadly, and is understandable even if undesirable. I believe that the most recently fired COB was both an assclown, but also put in a position where he was likely to fail. I don't think Philiposian was fired over politics of that they played any part in the situation. But as far as the political stuff goes in general, you'd have to be willfully ignorant not to see it. Too many around here are too interested in pushing their own agendas or the agendas of their own little cliques rather than working for the benefit of their crews.

2/12/2014 7:33 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"He retired this month after an Air Force inquiry concluded that he was "cruel and oppressive" and mistreated subordinates."

Nice...he was retired. Just how is that supposed to stop cruel and oppressive leadership? Guess only the poor slops with less than 20 have to worry about that. I hope the Secretary retired him in the grade appropriate for his behavior...2LT.

"An Army investigation cited the general for 'exhibiting paranoia' and making officers cry."

I had a CO that exhibited paranoia probably even when he took a crap. Paranoid about everything, and the crew couldn't stand it. Remember when he lined up all the department heads to chew us out and hand out powder puff LOIs to each. After the ENG and WEPS came out (WEPS was teary eyed), it was my turn. He tried to get me to cry. After he went on a tirade for five minutes, I simply said "Do you want me to cry? How about this...if you don't like my performance, find yourself a new NAV. I will shed no tears over your bullshit. Excuse me, I have a department to go run and a BSP to plan." I honestly hoped he would fire me, but, instead, he pretty much stopped talking to me. Yeap, I forgot just how thin that bulkhead on a 688 is, and the control room barely contained their laughter.

Oh, that CO got to leave early two weeks later. EDMC said something to me about how if I had done that a lot more, he might have not gotten fired. Sad for such an awesome crew that got nothing thanks to Captain Paranoia.

2/12/2014 7:51 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've heard more than one story of bully CO's like that backing down when a DH/XO stands up to him.

I suppose the moral of the story is never put a potential risk to your FITREP ahead of what's right.

2/12/2014 8:13 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ ANON 8:13... Everyone... I repeat... everyone... at one time or another has put their FITREP ahead of what's right. You're not Jesus... and don't expect others to be. And don't be preaching like you're Jesus because you're not. Jesus was not a CPO... he was not tested, selected, initiated, and accepted.

2/13/2014 1:13 AM

Blogger Scott Minium said...

Acknowledging that I'll be flamed for saying anything at all, I'll nevertheless type a few words about 8hr watches.

First, 8hr watches are an available tool and not a mandatory policy.

Second, the goal was not necessarily better rested watchstanders, but a stable sleep pattern that aligns with the circadian rhythm. Many studies show staying on a 24hr clock improves productivity and the effectiveness of what sleep you do get.

Third, it's not about cost cutting. As a matter of fact, some ships have had to carefully adjust meals so as not to bust the wallet. (3 meals plus 3 full on 'snack' periods looks like 6 meals vice 4)

Fourth, there is no set way to implement 8hr watches. There are at least (#ships * 2) variations out there. Some have mid watch breaks, some have snacks, some just go to three meals a day.

The force is trying out 8hr watches based on the circadian rhythm and expected benefits, and that's it.

BTW, if you ask the crew what they think, the answers are all over the map for all kinds of reasons, but are mostly tied to what rotation you get.

2/13/2014 2:29 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

On the topic of abusive leaders, rumor has it that there are serious problems on one of the SSGN's in Kings Bay.

2/13/2014 4:29 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

OK, back to non-POTUS topics:

An earlier poster complained you might miss a meal with the 8-hour rotation (ie, sleep through 1 of 3 meals). Most folks I knew over two tours probably only ate 2 meals anyway. And if they found themselves consistently eating 2 meals, maybe that would help some of our 'bigger' folks out with body fat!

Regardless, the cold, hard truth in life: you snooze, you lose!

I would have loved to try an 8 hr rotation - there were plenty of battlestation or maneuvering watch days that you ended up standing >8hrs watch anyway (with a small break to change your watch station). 8hrs in Maneuvering might be tough, tho...

The watch rotation our Norwegian shipmate mentioned sounds great but would be tough in practice.

2/13/2014 6:33 AM

Anonymous Gunnutmegger said...

The House Ways & Means Committee chairman says that 100% of the organizations targeted by the IRS were conservative, and he has the IRS' own documents as proof.

And lookee there, it's not a link from Conservative Treehouse.

What will your excuse for dismissing this egregious abuse be now? Did the chairman forge the documents? Is he being blackmailed by aliens?

Sorry leftists, the truth is out. Your 3-card monte shenanigans won't work anymore.

2/13/2014 7:02 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

And lookee there, it's not a link from Conservative Treehouse.

Nope, it's a link from the Conservative Nail Salon.

"Townhall is the top source for conservative news, political cartoons, breaking news, election news and commentary on politics and the media culture."

2/13/2014 8:00 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Townhall is the top source for conservative news, political cartoons, breaking news, election news and commentary on politics and the media culture."

Shhh. You'll pop their news bubble.

2/13/2014 9:10 AM

Blogger Unknown said...

Scott, well said on the 8 hour watches.

Joel, did you see that Topeka is off to Guam. It's quite cool that the 'Defender of the Heartland' is off to her 3rd (San Diego, Pearl, San Diego --> Guam) operational port.


2/13/2014 10:57 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Nope, it's a link from the Conservative Nail Salon."

The source is irrelevant, facts are facts. And the fact is that 100% of the organizations targeted by the IRS were conservative. Spin your way out of that one. The ignorant can be fixed, the stupid, not so much. Which are you?

2/13/2014 12:01 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I like how you say "facts are facts" but you don't use facts. You're an idiot, period. Stop focusing on fake scandals. Don't you anything better to do? You are making real republicans look stupid. Stop speaking for our party moron! Here is the reality... "In January 2014, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) announced that it had found no evidence warranting the filing of federal criminal charges in connection with the scandal. The FBI stated it found no evidence of “enemy hunting" of the kind that had been suspected, but that the investigation did reveal the IRS to be a mismanaged bureaucracy enforcing rules that IRS personnel did not fully understand."

2/13/2014 12:34 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Concur with above comment. Political extremists who use party talking points and fake scandals to attack the opposing party are idiots that make our country dumber. No party is the "correct" party. Please use condoms... please... please use condoms.

2/13/2014 12:39 PM

Blogger B said...

Although I enjoy reading the political banter that goes back and forth here, the one's that are best are those that try to prove how smart they are. There are many smart people that post here and often seem to worry about the events they can't control. Worry about what you can control. Vote as you see fit and hope the stars align so that what you are voting for actually happens with so many reps and congress with their own personal agendas.

2/13/2014 1:47 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The source is irrelevant, facts are facts. And the fact is that 100% of the organizations targeted by the IRS were conservative.

It's also a fact that the Tea Party was committing tax fraud.

Are you the kind of person who claims racism when police arrest more people from an ethnicity that actually commits a higher rate of crime?

2/13/2014 1:58 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Cleta Mitchell, a lawyer who has represented about a dozen groups that faced such IRS questioning, said the FBI has yet to contact her clients over the issue. 'As far as I can tell, nobody has actually done an investigation. This has been a big, bureaucratic, former-Soviet-Union-type investigation, which means that there was no investigation,' she said. 'This is a deplorable abuse of the public trust, but I am not surprised.'"

Kinda easy to find "no evidence warranting the filing of federal criminal charges in connection with the scandal" when you don't actually conduct a legitimate investigation. The only thing that amazes me about this is that stupid fucks like you who can't see the reality of these cover-ups are actually in the military.

2/13/2014 2:03 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

You believe a lawyer over the FBI? You sir are the king of stupid fucks.

2/13/2014 3:06 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The only thing that amazes me about this is that stupid fucks like you who can't see the reality of these cover-ups are actually in the military.

That actually makes a lot more sense than the other way around. Why would anyone volunteer to serve in the military if he thought it is commanded by a corrupt administration?

2/13/2014 3:30 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

So, find the leftist groups that had to undergo audits. Find the leftist sources pointing them out. In fact, find the mainstream media coverage of it- if you can.

The reason the coverage is on identifiable right wing sites is simple- everyone else is ignoring the facts. Facts are facts, the source is immatetial. If anyone here insiste left wing groups weer EQUALLY targeted, point it out.

The local news media here has yet to publish one word about how POTUS has zero authority to unilaterally change the ACA and delay implementation of parts of it- as he has done. He is required to uphold the law as written- not change it because it doesn't suit his whoms or becasue it will negatively impact elections for his party.

2/13/2014 4:22 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow dude... You have entered tin foil hat country. You are way out there. You're not informed... just confused. Here is the reality: Politicians use political theater in an attempt to influence voters. A leg of the entertainment industry uses the drama created by political theater to grab viewers in order to sell advertising space. You, my friend, have confused political theater with crazy conspiracies, constitutional violations, scandals, etc. There are none of these, just politicians trying to influence people and the entertainment industry trying to sell advertising space. You are being used… you are the product that companies are selling to advertisers. I urge you to give up politics for a short while to regain some of your sanity/perspective. Don’t allow politicians and the entertainment industry to manipulate your emotions and behaviors.

2/13/2014 4:56 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

So, find the leftist groups that had to undergo audits. Find the leftist sources pointing them out. In fact, find the mainstream media coverage of it- if you can.

Provide me a list of Democrat political groups who attempted to claim federal tax exemption under a provision that didn't actually apply to them, and I'll be happy to get started on that for you.

2/13/2014 5:14 PM

Blogger Vigilis said...

Here is a fact never mentioned with clarity by the left-wing, main stream media:

The IRS bias scandal against (self-announced by former IRS lawyer Lois Lerner) against 504(c)4 tea party/ conservative applicants was effectively unconstitutional censorship (violation of the 1st Amendment). What makes it more egregious is that it started in 2010 (according to Lois Lerner).

In other words, the censorship effectively minimized the predominant conservative voice prior to midterm elections of 2012.

The censorship had the bipartisan support of Democrats and RINOs like John Boehner, Lindsey Graham, and many other incumbents.

Anyone believe such elected lawyers are conservatives, or trustworthy? Checkthis out. trustworthy lawyers?

Then ask yourself how much YOU have in common with lawyers and how they can possibly represent you as over 60% of the U.S. Senate and 40% of the House.

The answer is rather simple: they do not represent us, they represent lawyers (themselves). Are there any exceptions?
Sure, temporarily.

2/13/2014 7:11 PM

Blogger Vigilis said...

Correction: here is the correct link.

2/13/2014 7:43 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon @4:29, which SSGN?

2/14/2014 3:49 PM

Anonymous Joel is a Fraud said...

Always new bubblehead was a liberal pussy. Even ignoring his O-4 retiring rank, his continual defense of Obama had me convinced.

2/15/2014 10:49 PM

Blogger Bubblehead said...

It's very telling that the previous commenter defines a "liberal pussy" as "someone who voted for McCain and Romney yet believes that Obama is a fairly standard-issue center-left politician who could have used some more experience prior to becoming President, and not a Communist/Muslim Fifth Columnist dedicated to destroying the U.S.". Very binary thinking on his part; I'm assuming on the boat he or she is/was always running around screaming "We're broached!" or "We've exceeded crush depth", with nothing in between. Quite sad.
Equally telling is that he somehow considers my career (6 years enlisted prior to commissioning, XO screened, medical disqual prior to serving as XO, FOS x2 for O-5 along with almost every other non-XO served Submarine Officer) as somehow "fraudulent".
And, anonymous commmenter, don't worry about when your comment will be deleted. I'll do it at my convenience whenever I feel like it... or not.

2/16/2014 4:15 AM

Anonymous None of the Above said...

Anonymous 'discussions' on the web regarding politics show it to be what it truly is: an ever-divisive and hate-developing activity.

What we need in America these days is a mechanism for striking down business-as-usual for the two dominating political parties who are virtually completely separate from the American people, and more than a bit despised by them.

One way would be a "none of the above" option on election ballots. No one will ever convince me, for instance, that the 2008 election that pitted one of the least-intelligent, most-angry Naval Academy grads against one of the least-competent, zero-executive experience senators was an election that We the People should have been forced to choose between.

We deserve far better, both from and for ourselves.

None of the Above was also one of the key mechanisms that broke the choke hold of the Soviet Union's it has been proven to work as a means of freeing humanity.

2/16/2014 6:57 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting read if you’re educated and enjoy looking down on people. Some of you know nothing of politics. Regurgitating talking points from partisan media does make you informed or sound smart (just the opposite). Too much misdirected passion. Why on earth would you personally attack someone who has a different view? If you do this, I suggest you take a debate class, or any college class for that matter (because clearly you’re not educated). Don’t you find it funny that most of you are not attacking politicians for their policies? Instead, people are being drawn into political theater and arguing as you would a sports team. Talk substance (policies) or do not talk at all. And stop with the conspiracies… please.

2/16/2014 1:10 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

How is this for an interesting topic that will bring mirth and memories to all submariners...

2/18/2014 3:59 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't understand the 6hr or 8hr watch standing routines at all. They both sound like a major cluster fuck that screws up more then just the sailors sleep.

Way back when, we stood an easy 4 on and 8 off. Everyone got to eat 3 meals, got to sleep at least 8 hrs. and either qualify of play card games, cribbage or read fuck books the other 8hrs. Seems simple to me.

2/23/2014 9:39 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Random Thoughts:

It is rarely a good idea to call the host a "liberal Pussy". If you don't like his politics, go elsewhere or keep your own counsel. (I personally found Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II all a bit Liberal for my tastes, so this isn't a case of sticking up for a "fellow liberal")

Politicians come in two flavors..."Dishonest", and "Haven't been caught yet".

If you don't like the ACA, then you should have made sure at a young age that you were on a career path where you could afford your own insurance and not need to worry about ACA.

Listening to all of the complaints across the country regarding how well the ACA works, I can't shake the thought that Karma has bitten the common (non-vet)man.

Websites that don't work, illnesses not covered, applications lost, errors in data entry, having to travel to get to a doctor who takes your insurance. These are all faults of the new ACA...or a story about trying to use a VA health care facility...

As long as there have been tests, there have been folks who will try to cheat on them. Don't see this changing. Ditto for gundecking logs.

"This stuff didn't happen when -I- was on the USS SomeShip". Sure it did, you just didn't notice, didn't care, or don't remember. My dad has said the same thing to me. His dad said the same to him.

The Navy has always had a selection of awesome sailors, good sailors, so-so sailors, and a few sailors who couldn't be trusted to paint a bulkhead without supervision. Unfortunately, sometimes the latter category end up in charge.

Perhaps I'm wrong, though. After all, I always considered submerging a sign of a damage control failure...

Former IC2

2/24/2014 9:41 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...


OK. I admit it. I was a skimmer. USS Kansas City (AOR-3), to be exact. I am here because:

1) Overall, you guys seem to be a bit more intelligent than most of the skimmer blogs.

2) I get to learn something new, or at least get a different viewpoint.

3) Better sea stories. Life on a replenishment oiler was somewhat less than exciting.

4) The host is tolerant of differing least those expressed with a bit of civility.

Former IC2

2/24/2014 9:52 PM

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