Congratulations To The Newly Frocked CPOs
If I remember right, September 15th is the day that the new Chief Petty Officers put on their new uniforms. An important day for the Navy's newest crop of leaders.
Now, it seems that CPO transition is a very organized process. Back in my earlier days in the Navy, it wasn't so much. Do any of you have any stories from the "old days" of Chief's initiation? (I remember my uncle telling me that he was required to put an olive in the martini glass of his "judge" without using his arms, feet, or mouth -- leaving only one body part that could hold and move such an object. He says he didn't fart during the task, so the olive didn't smell too bad.)
posted by Bubblehead at 5:46 AM
69 Comments:
Actually it is on September 16th.
Congratulations to every new Chief!
9/15/2009 6:12 AM
Congrats to the new CPO's.
To all of those that never picked it up, keep on trying. This is one tough competition where candidates are screened heavily, so make sure all is in order and I wish you well!
9/15/2009 7:20 AM
During drill this past weekend, I was lucky enough to be asked to sign a surface Chief Selectee's Charge Book as a Gold Dolphin wearer. It's only the second time I've been given the privilege, and I greatly appreciate the opportunity. Sadly for the inductee, both this time and the last, the privilege was granted to me because the selectee had suffered a Loss of Control of Charge Book casualty. Poor guy :)
Congrats to the new Chiefs!
9/15/2009 8:43 AM
Mine was pretty mundane except for having to lay down in a coffin filled with ice while gently cradling a very live chicken to my chest as the lid was closed for about 15 minutes.....Oh and eggs...Ate lots and lots of raw eggs......
9/15/2009 9:02 AM
I remember my dad came home that day with a huge ball & chain attached to his left ankle. Our mom admonished us to be extra well behaved that evening because he was tired and irritable. He had to sleep with it on that night. This was around 1980.
9/15/2009 10:20 AM
I went through initiation in 1982 at Beemans in PH. I made it with 2 NJP's as a First Class! Anyway, I suffered through all the humiliation. My sponsor was a Skimmer Chief who was a direct input to the SS Force. I was really pissed that he releived me as the ANAV (rank has its privilidges). He knew I never liked him, so he decided I would come to initiation dressed as the USS Beaufort some aux tug or something. Would have rather gone as a ballet dancer. After I finished all taskes prescribed by the judge, I was directed to put a raw egg in my mouth and walk around w/a pitcher of beer and ask each Chief if he would like a beer. Ever try to say a sentence with an egg in your mouth? You sound like you are an idiot. There was this one Chief, who had a few dozen beers too many got in my face and kept yelling at me to speak so he could understand. After a few miutes of that crap compunded by the fact I'd been up since oh-dark early, I bit down on the egg, squirted egg white and yolk all over his CNT's with 7 rows of ribbons. Pissed him off, he squared up to me and was ready to go toe-to-toe. Big mistake, I was a marathon trunner, cyclist and triathlete in superb shape. Fortunately for him, a number of sober Chiefs escorted him away from me and out of Beemans. Never saw or heard of that clown again. What a way to sour the moment. I survived and went on to be a COB and ultimately retire as a CWO4.
By the way, my nuke son-in-law made it. Unfortunately he is deployed and I am not there to see him get pinned. However, I will make the trip to Groton (from Jacksonville) to see him get off the boat when he returns just to see him in khakis.
9/15/2009 10:36 AM
Congrats to the soon to be new Chief Petty Officers!
My initiation was ok, nothing spectacular. The same ol' props, lotsa eggs, limburger cheese, shrimp paste, etc... the worst part for me was the pinning ceremony.
I had my wife, sons (age 5 and 9), my mother, and stepfather (for all intents and purposes, my dad) there for the pinning. Our EDMC was to read the creed aloud. He was sloppy drunk, and had spilled hot sauce and shrimp paste on his Summer Khakis. We (4 of us) stood there while he slobbered and slurred his way through the creed, complete with appropriately placed "F-in"'s for pause, in complete shock. Not one single Chief even attempted to take over for him. Needless to say, I was pissed. After I was pinned and hatted, I thanked my sponsor, shook hands with the COB, and left. I never participated on that ship as long as that EDMC was there.
I'm all for having fun, and initiation need not be rigid and boring. There is a time and place for everything, however, and the official pinning ceremony is not the time and place for such behavior, especially when outsiders are present. My Mom and Dad attended 3 ceremonies in my career: 1) The Pass-In-Review of the first Recruit Company I trained, 2) This and 3)My retirement ceremony. It's a shame, at least to me, that they were witness to that disaster in one of them.
9/15/2009 12:57 PM
I made EM1(SS) nuke, in 4 years and two months. Had I shipped at the eight year mark, EMC would have been a gimme, and I'd have that "initiation" crap to put up with.
200 years of "Proud Traditions" does not make them any less stupid.
9/15/2009 1:11 PM
I have a friend I've known since kindergarten who is in the reserves and made Chief on the last go round. He was an airdale in the 80s, got out for awhile, then reenlisted in the reserves as an IS. His sponsor, a CSCS(SS) in his unit, charged him with finding out both verses of the 'submarine song'. He called me and within minutes had both verses.
We had an RO who was a Chief select sitting RO for the maneuvering watch. He was in the same watchsection as me so I got to see the charge book often as he had a car battery cable bolted to it as a shoulder strap and would bolt it to the RPCP on the EPCP side while on watch. I made an almost identical looking book. During the maneuvering watch I was the 2JV phone talker sitting on the floor by the EOOW between the RO and EO (637 class). With the RO being diligent and keeping an eye on the throttleman I changed out the books. It got passed out the back of maneuvering and to the COB who was topside supervisor. Word was passed down via the 1SJ for ETC(SS)sel to see the COB in the goat locker after watch AND BRING HIS CHARGE BOOK. On the day he left the boat I told him..... He laughed.
PW
9/15/2009 1:19 PM
meh, I did it. Ah, holding a frozen, but salty-slimy banana in our mouth. We suffered all the standard gags and pranks: dive bomber, ice casket, walk the plank and jumping onto "glass", bowling ball in the nuts, rooting for anchors in our little pig troughs, sang bawdy songs. They seemed to be hell bent on getting us to puke. It was funny how they kept having us slurp down oysters, squid, sardines, all with some hot sauce concotion, but it's like bread and butter for a kid from the gulf coast. In the end, it was a chunk of limburger did me in, it was just, no pun, nauseatingly sweet after all the tasty seafood. So, I puked in my mouth a little, swallowed it, then they let me answer the charges in the book, and I was done. I liked the creed part best, and I think pretty much all of the chiefs I served with were good, most of them better than me.
9/15/2009 1:53 PM
So much for the "Silent Service."
Some of you are sure passing along a lot of information about the initiation/induction process in a public forum, especially those things that put the Mess in a bad light.
Didn't they teach you not to blab about your initiation to non-Chiefs?
Chief B
9/15/2009 2:18 PM
Thank you Chief B, you said it before I had the chance. I imagine some of those have changed, what with the PC tone initiation has taken on.
630-738, sorry yours ended that way. I had a drunk nuke MM frocked E-8 at one of the last initiations I attended and he wanted to read the creed. We put him in the back where he wouldn't be noticed too much. He went on to new construction at NN as the bull nuke and was later defrocked, busted and de-nuked for falsifying training records. Yes, the stupid shall be punished.
Well done initiations leave a lasting positive impression on new CPO's and renew the commitment for those of us who went before. I haven't been to the new style initiation - I hope the hard learned lessons still come through.
OldCOB
9/15/2009 2:32 PM
Only one at the Mayport schoolhouse this year (compared to three last year. An STG who was gracious enough to create a page for me in her charge book (in addition to one for another retired YNC in our office). Other than passing on some "Rules of Good Chief's" passed down to me over the years, I asked but one question: "What is the only Sea completely surrounded by water?"
Congratulations to the new Chiefs and welcome to the mess.
9/15/2009 5:57 PM
Chief B,
Ordinarily I would agree with you. We should keep what happens in the mess, in the mess. I shared my story for one simple reason: It was NOT a private portion of the transition, it was open to all who wished to attend. It was an utter embarrassment to all who call themselves Chief Petty Officers, and I have sincere hopes that others take heed and make damn sure it doesn't happen again.
I've always believed that the one thing the Nuclear Navy got right over all, was to share mistakes with everyone so they can learn from them. That's far different from putting the mess in a bad light.
9/15/2009 7:18 PM
I for one will be glad when the initiation season is over. Maybe we can actually get some work done. Our E-7/8/9s have been scarce for nearly a month.
Is it an accomplishment to make Chief? Sure, but does it warrant the waste of time and money and the pretty blatant hazing? Not in my opinion.
9/15/2009 8:10 PM
blatant hazing?
No it isn't hazing. Trust me, I've heard alot of freak show stories of what a guy has to go through once he's earned the privilege of wearing khaki pants. I've actually watched a brand new MTC dressed as a school girl and instructed to get on stage and sing Anchors Aweigh and then Yanky Doodle while he holds a pitcher of beer in each hand. He had to dance and get through both songs without spilling any beer while the guys below throw ice cubes at his feet.
Granted, us LPOs who were invited, were not permitted to "participate". The few of us invited, were there as observers only. And ya know what?...It was fuckin' great. The new MTC didn't exactly look too good in a school girl uniform while singing and skipping on stage. But that's because he's built like an NFL blocker. In other words, he is a guy's guy and a magnificent CHIEF whom I have a great deal of respect for. He made it through initiation and had a good attitude about it.
Did he consider it hazing?...I highly doubt it. You have to remember that a Chief has to be everywhere at once. He has to keep the leadership happy. At the same time, he has to make sure everyone in his division is going about their daily tasks in a warm & happy manner that benefits the boat in a positive and constructive manner. Have you any idea how much mental and physical energy it takes to make all this shit happen in a timely and appropriate fashion? That's what a Chief does, he makes it look like magic.
Any Chief Select, shouldn't have a problem with a little bit of "hazing." They're about to see a whole other side of life as a leader and mentor once they put the khaki pants and anchors on. Atleast that is the way I see it as a 1st who hopes to to make Chief in the next 3 to 4 years.
9/16/2009 1:19 AM
I'm with 8:10 p.m. I'm not sure how dancing in a schoolgirl outfit makes one a better chief. I am sure that for the last month, the work output of CPOs in Pearl has diminished to near zero.
On the other hand, congratulations!
Now could you all please get back to work?
9/16/2009 3:19 AM
"Some of you are sure passing along a lot of information about the initiation/induction process in a public forum, especially those things that put the Mess in a bad light."
Oh please.
Made chief at the 11-year mark in 1988 at a very large CONUS shore command with far too many CPOs who were near HYT, disqualified for (whatever), apparently had no actual work to do, and were just passing time until retirement.
Many of them were regularly drunk at initiation activities. Regularly. They were teaching the selectees nothing, and clearly just repaying with interest the bullshit they had been forced to go through. These slugs unfortunately outnumbered and out-volumed those chiefs trying to make it a worthwhile experience.
The worst summer of my 21 years in the navy as a white hat, CPO or commissioned officer. Complete waste of time, money and energy. There was nothing about that particular goat locker worth emulating.
The things I needed to learn about being a CPO I learned from watching good ones take care of their troops, train their JOs and manage the running of hard missions in the years before that summer.
I learned suprisingly little from experiments with how much nuoc mam or olive oil I consumed. If the USN's CPO's had collectively policed the initiation process, it wouldn'd have been necessary to take corrections from the CNO...
If the "Mess" you are mewling about had crafted a worthhile process, it would stand up to the light of public scrutiny.
9/16/2009 4:27 AM
OK,today is the day. Let's have a safe group hug and dining in. Hope all of the selectee's learned the 1000 verses of KUM-BI-YA (-2 pts spelling). Sure there was a lot of CPO's who abused the entire process, but don't forget those who actually knew what the purpose of the entire process was about and made it meaningful.
CONTGRATULATIONS to all those who are going to be wearing khakis today, especially to those who are underway, keeping us safe and free.
9/16/2009 5:34 AM
Sure there was a lot of CPO's who abused the entire process, but don't forget those who actually knew what the purpose of the entire process was about and made it meaningful.
Amen, brother. Unfortunately, as it is with any institution, the ones who do it right draw no attention, it is the few who step over the line who are held up as the example of what is wrong with the system, and create changes that may or may not have been needed.
I had a bad experience as a part of my transition. That did not diminish my enthusiasm for a healthy transition process at all. Many may differ, but there are certainly good reasons why selectees endure what they endure, and one should only need to go back, read and understand the CPO creed to be reminded.
Unfortunately, a few well-publicized incidents put the transition period in a negative light, and forced the MCPON and others to develop a strictly regulated transition process that differs greatly from what we endured. In spite of disdain from those who went through "traditional" initiation, what we have now is more controlled, less likely to descend into a drunken haze-fest, and will result in the new Chief having an understanding of the importance of his new role and how important it is for his CPO mess to function as a single, cohesive unit.
9/16/2009 6:24 AM
I spent six years, got out as an EM1 (SS). Not sure why a "single, cohesive unit" is a strength. There are way too many examples of group think and failure to take action when needed that come to mind. (Greenville, anyone?) To the extent that initiation (not hazing) bonds folks together, it's a good practice. To the extent that it encourages the chief's mess (and wardroom) to only engage in disagreements and criticism privately, it's a failure. Maybe one of you CPO's could tell me exactly how the initiation process makes better chiefs? Seems to me like it just signals their inclusion into the brotherhood of hiding each others mistakes instead of reviewing them and letting all involved learn from the process.
9/16/2009 7:30 AM
Oh, and congratulations! I have the utmost respect and gratitude for all you guys who continue to stand the watch.
9/16/2009 7:33 AM
SJV,
There is a distinct difference between a cohesive group who hashes out their differences in private, and comes out a united team afterward, and a group who just goes along because they assume the guy in charge is always right.
The initiation process is good, if used right, because it teaches the selectee that although personal initiative is a good trait and will get you far, the individual will always benefit from the collective knowledge and experience of the team.
The purpose of a CPO mess is not to hide the faults of it's weak links, it is to draw on the strengths of the individuals there to form a stronger team in the end. That's not to discount the fact that the mess has been used to shelter weaker links, I've seen it all too often. A good, functioning CPO mess benefits everyone because weak links are exposed and made stronger.
As far as disagreements and criticisms being done privately, that's been my method of operation all along, whether dealing with fellow Chiefs, Officers, or Petty Officers. It does not matter to me. I criticize in private and praise in public nearly every time. There have been occassions when I cross that line. One time comes to mind when a Chief was new to my last boat and he couldn't find an EAB connection in ERUL. He got pissed, ripped off his EAB, yelled "F--- this sh--" and stormed out of the ER. I went after him, grabbed him, and proceeded to rip him a new one right in front of the COB and several crew members. My point was simple- if you're not going to act like a Chief (or submariner, for that matter), I'm not going to treat you like one. I reverted to my Recruit Company Commander persona and got the intended result.
In the end, the CPO initiation process works for most, some won't either get it or won't agree. As long as the selectee becomes a strong, effective Chief and does more good than harm, I'm not inclined to get too upset if he or she didn't think much of the process.
9/16/2009 9:11 AM
Well sjv, too bad you didn't make Chief to understand the process. I'm sure you only heard what you wanted to hear and blew off the rest. Why worry about it now, you're in CIVLANT and probably sucessful. So until you understand the process STFU.
9/16/2009 9:12 AM
Additionally, thank you SJV for your service. I don't think guys who did only one enlistment and moved on get enough credit for theirs from us who made it a career.
9/16/2009 9:14 AM
how is the "initiation" not hazing?
are you allowed to force people during normal everyday work to do what the Selectee's do?
are your Sailors required to do all of the STUPID, Idiotic, Demeaning Tasks at the drop of a hat...and this assignment can come from ANY KHAKI
I've seen many initiations over the years. Each one stinks of Hazing. Spout all of your crap about Training, Initiation...or whatever other euphemism you want. It is plain and simple hazing.
Were the E-1 through E-6 crowd play any of these "Initiation Rites" on a fellow E-1 through E-6, they would be strung up before the CO and most likely discharged dishonorarily...at least losing a Stripe.
On the other hand, I've seen how the Chiefs Mess excludes people who refuse to do the bullshit. How they are ostracized and how E-7+ people feel the need to pass that info along wherever said induvidual goes.
The Chiefs Mess is a great thing. But all too commonly it is nothing more than a Brutish Union. Protect it's inner circle at the expense of all those not included.
9/16/2009 10:24 AM
btw, congrats to each of you who made it.
eventually I'll get to do my "Initiation".
9/16/2009 10:24 AM
630-738, I think we're pretty much on the same page. I don't suggest we criticize people in public, only that we do discuss failures in public so that lessons can be shared.
Ex ANAV, sorry if I come across as having selective hearing.
If I can, I'd like to share what I've learned elsewhere, and bring it back in a forum like this to expand the viewpoints of others. I don't think we have to agree on everything, but I'd at least like you to have some respect for my service.
I do thank you for your service darn near every day. I fly flags, promote military service to young men who are interested, and stay connected. I have never regretted the six years I spent in service to this country, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
Thanks for listening anyway.
9/16/2009 11:27 AM
Active Duty E-6 looking from the bottom of the stink pit. It's damn hard to take what you post seriously when you start your posting like this.
Reading your second comment, I'm going to venture a guess that you've been up for Chief multiple times and are growing bitter about the inability to get over the hump. If I'm wrong, forgive me. If I'm right, consider this: Bitterness toward the institution you have aspirations of becoming a part of is quite counterproductive. It might make you feel better now, and make you seem cool to your friends, but it doesn't get you anywhere near your goal. If you truly feel that way about the CPO community, then believe me, you don't want to be a part of it. Otherwise, you are just posturing.
9/16/2009 12:25 PM
@Stink Pit: Oh, lordy, where to start?
are you allowed to force people during normal everyday work to do what the Selectee's do?
No. Which is why, as a general rule, we do not.
are your Sailors required to do all of the STUPID, Idiotic, Demeaning Tasks at the drop of a hat...and this assignment can come from ANY KHAKI
No, and we do not ASK them to.
I've seen many initiations over the years.
No, you haven't. You may THINK you have but, listening to your typed words, you really haven't.
Each one stinks of Hazing. Spout all of your crap about Training, Initiation...or whatever other euphemism you want. It is plain and simple hazing.
Sadly, there have been isolated incidents of hazing, yes, but I would say those are few and far between, and getting more and more rare. Is that the norm? Of course not. Had you actually seen an initiation, as you claim, you would understand this more clearly.
Were the E-1 through E-6 crowd play any of these "Initiation Rites" on a fellow E-1 through E-6, they would be strung up before the CO and most likely discharged dishonorarily...at least losing a Stripe.
I seriously doubt that. But, then again, I seriously doubt that the current initiation scenario, which is approved by MCPON, by the way, would even OCCUR to anyone outside the CPO Quarters as "Crowd Play" to play on one another.
On the other hand, I've seen how the Chiefs Mess excludes people who refuse to do the bullshit. How they are ostracized and how E-7+ people feel the need to pass that info along wherever said induvidual goes.
Won't say that doesn't happen but, again, that is extremely rare. Or maybe you are one of those disgruntled sailors that always needs a little drama in his life?
The Chiefs Mess is a great thing. But all too commonly it is nothing more than a Brutish Union. Protect it's inner circle at the expense of all those not included.
Sounds like you are one of the latter...why else would you say such a thing? Refer to my Drama comment above.
btw, congrats to each of you who made it.
eventually I'll get to do my "Initiation".
It is my sincere hope that if and when you do, you go into it with an open mind and a respect for the intent of the initiation process. As I said before, you may THINK you've "seen it", but, really, you haven't. I'll let others call you clueless, and I'll let others tell you to STFU. What *I* will tell you is this: Those who CAN...DO. Those who CAN'T...sit back and bitch about those who DID.
9/16/2009 1:33 PM
Let me modify this line a little:
Those who CAN'T(or WON'T)...sit back and bitch about those who DID.
9/16/2009 1:37 PM
Well said ANAV.
OldCOB
9/16/2009 1:42 PM
Stinkpit, You can't change the system. You can't beat the system. Is the system perfect? Well hell no, of coarse it's not perfect.
You have to work within the system to get anywhere in life regardless of your rate. you try and fight it, and you will lose. You stand around moaning and bitching, you will lose.
The goat locker is a brotherhood all on it's own. It always has been. That's how I've seen it as a 1st while viewing it at a limited PD. If you run around shooting your mouth off, do you really think you'll make it through a successful board? Our community is fairly small, have you forgotten that? Everyone can hear what you're saying and complaining about around your boat or where ever you're at currently.
Change your attitude, or retire as a 1st class. Those are your options really. Don't get crazy about the initiation process. That would only be a waste of time. Open your mind and become a bit more tolerant of others around you. If you don't, you'll lose in the end.
9/16/2009 2:38 PM
This comment has been removed by the author.
9/16/2009 6:53 PM
I never was selected as a CPO. Board eligible more than I could count, but couldn't quite get selected.
Most of the initiations I saw were OK. I didn't hear a lot of tasks that I thought were BS, or that I thought were childish. I willingly admit I didn't see the entire process.
But I think that all have some valid points here. At a command with a good group in the Goat Locker, the initiations will run smoothly, and make sense to anyone who is willing to think about what is going on. If the command has a bad group of CPO's, the initiation will not be a good event.
I was lucky. I worked for a lot of excellent CPO's during my 20 years. I learned from every CPO I ever worked for...even if what I learned was "DON'T DO THIS! IT DOESN'T WORK".
If you are reading this....Thanks, Bob McCombs. You too, Mark Laufer.
And lots of others....
9/16/2009 7:02 PM
@DDM: Hear Hear.
@Widgethead:
Stinkpit, You can't change the system.
Sure, you can, and it's usually easier than you think, if done RIGHT. What you CAN'T do (as Stinkpit has done here - and many times in the past, from the sounds of it) is sit and squawk about how jacked up things are (which, of course, is purely subjective) and just leave it at that. My previous parting shot to him is germane here.
9/16/2009 7:10 PM
First of all, congratulations to all the new Chiefs. I was initiated in 1991. Unless you have been through an initiation/transition season you have no idea on what it is really like. The Navy has done a lot to fix meaningless rites of passage. In my opinion we've gone too far. Everybody wants to see tangible things. Much of what makes a good Sailor or good Officer or good Chief are intangible. I think about the whole process, not some dumbass who treated me like dirt just because that's the way he had been trained. In the end the messages in the CPO creed are all the marching orders a Chief should need. We spend too much time, money and effort on gimmicks that use buzzwords vice doing the things necessary on the deckplate to get a warship ready to go in harms way and train our men to take our place. Was some of my initiation silly and trivial? Yes. But I wouldn't trade any of it for the lessons it taught me on humility, toughness, and courage to stand up for what is right. I'm sorry, but those who think the CPO initiation is an unworthy and unnecessary tradition just don't get it
9/16/2009 7:22 PM
The Navy has done a great deal to improve the Chief's initiation. I ate probably the worst glop they could brew up...much worse than the truth serum used for the Equator or the Arctic Circle. Not feeding proud Chief Selectee's vile goo is a positive thing. The whole eating thing was clearly childish, but if you approached it with a good attitude it was tolerable as a rite of passage I suppose--in a dark, and sad "feeding on your own young" kind of way.
I truly wish the Navy would fund an in-residence course for new CPO's...something around 4 weeks to 6 weeks long. The course work should cover ceremonies, mess adminstration, leadership, close order drill, etc, etc, etc. That would be a fine way to initiate a Chief.
I am amused by the silliness that people espouse on keeping the details of initiation secret--what patent nonsense. If the details were kept secret we would still be feeding proud 1st classes a bunch of tomato based slime, and to what end?
I did find one thing of notable value from my initiation, and that was the ass chewing drills.
After being reamed by the mess for weeks on end I found I could easily tolerate the worst possible ass reaming applied by Captains, etc. Learning to let stuff slide off you was a useful skill that I can point to the Chiefs initiation for.
9/16/2009 8:00 PM
Put the hat on in May 1968. No boards then, pass the test and make the cut. At that time CPO appointments were "Acting Appointments" for two years before you became permanent. TMCA(SS). That meant if you were a screw up you could be busted by the CO during those two years.
Usual "back in the day" shinanigans, I was dressed up as a ballerina with brown shoes (back then all khaki wore brown shoes) all singing, all dancing, with lots of beer thrown in. Best part was after getting dressed, hearing the creed, and being pinned with my sea daddy's collar devices (he made senior that day and I had worked for him in 1960-61 when he was first class).
Times change, different Navy then, some good some not so good. Sounds to me like the CPO initiation today strikes the right cord.
Keep a zero bubble............
DBFTMC(SS)USNRET
9/16/2009 9:37 PM
At "Ret ANAV",
You are full of crap regarding your "initiation is not hazing" belief...this may be true now but back in the day there were things I participated in that were absolutely hazing (when you would be embarrassed to tell your family about the event then a line has been crossed).
9/17/2009 6:13 AM
Are we son sensitive that a force of strong men are now afraid of hazing?
Oh well, at least we can write good training goals, use power point and run fast!
What a joke.
9/17/2009 6:56 AM
Are we son sensitive that a force of strong men are now afraid of hazing?
Oh well, at least we can write good training goals, use power point and run fast!
What a joke.
Annon...Can I have a hug???
9/17/2009 9:09 AM
At "Ret ANAV",
You are full of crap regarding your "initiation is not hazing"
Please cut and paste the part where I said "Initiation is not hazing".
Please read the part where I said:
Sadly, there have been isolated incidents of hazing, yes, but I would say those are few and far between, and getting more and more rare.
As with sexual harrassment, "Hazing" is in the eyes of the beholder. Some instances are blatant and obvious to all...others are percieved only by the recipient.
9/17/2009 11:05 AM
People are quick to defend the Locker when Hazing is mentioned. Despite the actions that occur are quite clearly that of Hazing.
Actually, I am finally just now eligible for E-7. I am not embittered or full of hate. I merely see the Selectee process each year. And the snapshot I've seen each time sickens me.
From just that slight glimpse of the inner working...hell yes it is Hazing. Even then, Hazing isn't too bad if you keep it below bodily injury.
My issue with it is I just don't play those games. I fully admit I got hazed as a NUB. The Engineroom was a dangerous place to be.
Again, I don't play that game. Too dangerous for the career. And it is a patent slap in the face that the Goat Locker can dance around this by calling it "Initiation".
I referred to CO Mast in my prior post. If you truly believe that a E-1 through E-6 could perpetrate these actions against another Blue Shirt, and not be punished...wow. You are delusional.
And yes, Selectee's are forced to play these stupid little games. Those who don't play are ostracized and it is very clear they are not in favor in the Locker. There is absolutely nothing optional about the process. If you don't play the game, the Locker will go out of it's way to RUIN that persons Career. Failure to play will follow that person the duration of their career, and be a negative aspect no matter what the persons personal accomplishments. Why else do you think people put up with the bullshit? It certainly isn't so they can feel more of a Brotherhood. Because we all know 1.5 months of taking shit makes you come together in a Cumby-ya moment.
I've seen 9 initiations over the years. Only 1 of them was 1/2 way decent IMO. That was because the Bull Nuke had been badly burned on a prior Command by Hazing.
Chiefs always think the Initiation process is so secretive. Hate to break it to ya, but it ain't. Even the "secret" stuff inside the Locker ain't all that secret. A boat is too small a space for the games to not go unnoticed. Only the extremely private portions of the process are a bit Mysterious.
Everything else is pretty much well known. I know I've got a pretty good binder of info set aside. I've paid attention over the years and have set aside the info that others have needed. I haven't taken dancing lessons yet, and since I don't drink, that part will be interesting.
You can teach Selectee's how to be a better Khaki with better methods. I especially like the thought of a 4-6 week course as mentioned in a prior post.
I would like to join your Ranks. Any idiot can make E-6 over a career. It takes a bit of something special to be selected for E-7. I would like to think I am worthy of that distinction. We'll see.
But for now, the current Initiation Process is crap. I'm sorry if I offend your E-7/8/9 sensibilities by calling the process into question. If things were so benign as people swear, why then do my words offend? I think it's because there is more than just a hint of truth.
I've been hazed...I've done a bit of Hazing myself. I'm not proud of it, and wish I could appologize to those poor bastards.
Calling it Training doesn't make it right.
if you are E-7+ and my post pisses you off...consider this first. Remove your Chief hat. Look subjectively at the issue. Put it in the perspective where a E-5 was "initiating" his brand new E-4. See then if you still feel that way.
9/17/2009 11:15 AM
Stinkpit,
Since you've never been a Chief, how can you know which parts of the induction process are important to being a Chief and which aren't?
A Chief's responsibilities run a lot deeper than you think, but it all comes down to taking care of his or her Sailors.
Induction teaches Selectees how to use every tool at their disposal, from learning to tap the incredible collective knowledge of the Chief's Mess worldwide, to taking royal ass-reamings from the XO and letting it slide off their backs, to putting the welfare of their Sailors above all else even when it could prove detrimental to their career.
These are things good Chiefs do, and over the years the induction process has been crafted to pass such lessons along to the Selectees.
The induction process also teaches Selectees to be humble, open to criticism and to trust their fellow Chiefs.
You seem to think you know it all, but trust me, you don't.
Socrates taught a long time ago that the wisest person in the world is the one that knows what he doesn't know. Everyone else is just a fool.
There are many things that you simply don't know as a First Class, though you may think you do. There are also lessons that can't be taught in books, PowerPoint or online NKO courses. The induction process is designed to pass along such lessons to the Selectees.
I still reflect on things I learned from my induction and I wouldn't trade it for the world.
Chief B
9/17/2009 12:00 PM
@Stinkpit:
People are quick to defend the Locker when Hazing is mentioned.
Depends on the circumstances, but as a general rule, we are a brotherhood, and thats what brothers do
Despite the actions that occur are quite clearly that of Hazing.
This is where it "Depends on the Circumstances". Blatant and obvious hazing? Most of us will do our best to squash it.
I merely see the Selectee process each year. And the snapshot I've seen each time sickens me.
Say "Snapshot" five times fast.
From just that slight glimpse of the inner working...hell yes it is Hazing.
Say "Slight Glimpse" 5 times fast.
My issue with it is I just don't play those games.
Hazing aside, those games are for a purpose that I would not expect you to glean from a slight glimpse or snapshot.
And it is a patent slap in the face that the Goat Locker can dance around this by calling it "Initiation".
If done correctly within the MCPON-established guidelines, there is nothing to dance around.
And yes, Selectee's are forced to play these stupid little games.
Maybe on your boat (which is wrong), but as a general rule, no, they're not.
Those who don't play are ostracized and it is very clear they are not in favor in the Locker. There is absolutely nothing optional about the process. If you don't play the game, the Locker will go out of it's way to RUIN that persons Career. Failure to play will follow that person the duration of their career, and be a negative aspect no matter what the persons personal accomplishments. Why else do you think people put up with the bullshit? It certainly isn't so they can feel more of a Brotherhood. Because we all know 1.5 months of taking shit makes you come together in a Cumby-ya moment.
OK, I can't stand it anymore....STOP using SUBJECTIVE statements and start using objective ones. Instead of using words like "Will" and "Are", use words like "could" and "May Be", and for GOD'S SAKE, STOP generalizing and give us specific examples of what you have ACTUALLY SEEN! (phew)
I've seen 9 initiations over the years. Only 1 of them was 1/2 way decent IMO.
Your opinion as a spectator is noted. Get back to me when you have an opinion as a participant.
Only the extremely private portions of the process are a bit Mysterious.
And it's the extremely private portions that are usually the most important
Everything else is pretty much well known. I know I've got a pretty good binder of info set aside. I've paid attention over the years and have set aside the info that others have needed.
And if you think that it's all about gathering info and answering questions then, as I suspected, you really don't understand what it's all about yet.
You can teach Selectee's how to be a better Khaki with better methods. I especially like the thought of a 4-6 week course as mentioned in a prior post.
Rickey.West@navy.mil
Any idiot can make E-6 over a career.
Clearly
It takes a bit of something special to be selected for E-7. I would like to think I am worthy of that distinction. We'll see.
Requires a lot of "Un-Learning" of things you may have picked up over the years. Specifically, one characteristic trait of a CPO is humility.
But for now, the current Initiation Process is crap.
Rickey.West@navy.mil
If things were so benign as people swear, why then do my words offend?
Because you generalize...and, in substance, your generalities are way off the mark.
if you are E-7+ and my post pisses you off...consider this first. Remove your Chief hat. Look subjectively at the issue.
Perhaps this is the root of your issue...you are looking subjectively and are asking us to do the same, when you should be looking OBJECTIVELY.
9/17/2009 12:06 PM
Holy Hell! Ret ANAV,
Not to be a wise ass, but I firmly believe you've missed your calling as a federal prosecutor.
I am just beginning to put a promotion package together for my first board. You've given me quite a bit to think about as well. I found your last post to be very humbling and a considerable wake-up call...which is why I just printed it. Thank You for that.
The WidgetHead
9/17/2009 1:48 PM
Ret ANAV said...
Specifically, one characteristic trait of a CPO is humility.
Um, perhaps you mean to say one desired characteristic trait of a CPO is humility.
Of course we have all met many many CPOs, SCPOs, and MCPOs who are missing this important characteristic. I'm guessing that the chugging of the raw oysters with hot sauce somehow didn't do the job it was supposed to do.
9/17/2009 3:17 PM
This comment has been removed by the author.
9/17/2009 3:51 PM
When I was a JO one of the selectees refused to play. Every one in the wardroom thereafter referred to him as >chief< PETTY OFFICER.
Frankly the whole 'initiation' thing stinks to me. They do organized PT wearing unauthorized shirts and hold a full day of 'training' that is not allowed to be seen (but no shenanigans are going on).
And Chiefs beat most other non-coms hands down.
9/17/2009 3:52 PM
CO's were invited to quite a few initiations I attended. My best moments as a Chief were only witnessed by a few people. Though my parents taught me right from wrong, one of the things the CPO initiation process also taught me the lofty expectations expected from Chiefs, as called out in the creed. I did not truly see this until I had been a Chief in charge of a division at sea on a warship. Unless you've walked in a Chief's shoes, you don't know what it's like. Saying you do is bogus.
This mamby pamby whining about hazing rubs me the wrong way. Take some men who work under stressful conditions and give them a way to privately blow off steam where nobody gets hurt and you have some great memories like Shellback, Blue Nose, half-way night parties, and the old CPO initiation. Some dickhead goes overboard, a whole group of naval officers go nuts in Vegas and all such rites of passage get treated the same.
We have effectively made submarining a social experiment in creating a culture that is so "professional" that we can't keep the best people in because we set unrealistic expectations for our crews with a zero defect mentality, while giving them 10 pounds of crap to put into a five pound sock. I was in the Navy 24+ years, 17 of them wearing "The Hat". I honestly believe the new overall process is better, but the old process worked for a long time.
9/17/2009 4:24 PM
Stinkpit guy,
"During the course of this day, you have been caused to suffer indignities, to experience humiliations. This you have accomplished with rare good grace, and therefore, we now believe it fitting to explain to you why this was done. There was no intent, no desire, to demean you nor to insult you. Pointless as it may have seemed to you, there was a time-honored and valid reason behind every single deed, every pointed barb."
That's just the first part of the creed (publicly available at just about any NEX or Internet site).
You didn't understand when you were watching from the sidelines and you obviously still don't get it.
Maybe someday (during an induction season) YOU will be a SELECTEE participant, and then a year later as a GENUINE, alot more will become even clearer to you. Hopefully even further along you will be a SPONSOR, and the learning will continue.
Until then, your comments to me seem to be filled with ignorance - and though you may not be able to see it, a bit of envy.
I vividly remember as a senior (gold crow) PO1 watching bits & pieces of what I perceived to be 'antics' during initiation periods. I remember being a little miffed at how more work came to me during the season because the selects & the CPO's spent so much time that the rest of the blue-shirts had to carry a greater portion of the load. I also remember being bitter that my rate was advancing CPO's at about the 10% level while others advanced at much higher percentages.
It STILL boggles my mind that we advanced people to Chief this year who were in the bottom third of elgible candidates in their rate - when you advance 68%, that's what happens. I'd lay odds those guys aren't man for man as good CPO's as those who were the top 15-20% of their year group in order to make it through the board. But that's another topic...
Having been through the process multiple times, I guarantee you just aren't seeing the forest because of the trees obstructing your view when it comes to the induction/initiation(+whatever we'll call it next year) process.
YMMV.
9/17/2009 7:47 PM
Srvd_SSN_CO said...
When I was a JO one of the selectees refused to play. Every one in the wardroom thereafter referred to him as >chief< PETTY OFFICER.
I don't see where anyone in the wardroom who hasn't been through the process themselves (prior enlisted)gets off demeaning a chief. The Genuines might refer to a non participant as a chief PETTY OFFICER but theyv'e earned the right to do so.
Most "O"'s, probably including one who claims to be a Srvd_SSN_CO, have not.
9/18/2009 11:32 AM
No, he has "earned" the right to command a nuclear powered submarine. I'd say that counts for something special, especially when one compares the number of Chiefs to the number of submarine CO's wandering around.
The place, function and accomplishment of a Chief is indeed something special. But this time of year it is always amusing to watch some Chiefs imagine themselves to be more special than they really are. If they all died tomorrow, the Navy would continue to operate. Same goes for the CO's for that matter.
9/18/2009 5:14 PM
I’ve been retired for over 15 years now, so I don’t know what Chief’s Initiations have evolved into. A lot has been said, especially about hazing, that makes me wonder what all the current fuss is about. I was initiated in 1980 after having been a PO1 for 10 years (so I’m slow). I knew I had earned my promotion and I also knew that the initiation process was something that would separate me from my previous job. The initiation process was for me! I sure as hell was going to enjoy it, and I did. The lead up to the initiation I enjoyed the most because of the challenges and my inventive solutions. During the actual initiation I got all messed up, but I made sure the initiators shared my mess. I had a great time. Anytime I was pushed, I played along and pushed back. Hazing means you are powerless to do anything about it. As a chief selectee I knew it was time to stand up. If I was told to do something I was not going to do I said, “With all due respect Chief Smith, #*&@ you!” I always got a smile. Anyway I knew the COB kept all the other Chiefs in line to make the process meaningful.
After the initiation fun stuff I got all cleaned up, and the actual pinning of the collar devices and the Chief’s Creed gave me a lump in my throat. I might have suffered humiliations, but none compared to those humiliations I suffered later on the job. It’s amazing how much depends on the Chief if things go wrong. You suck it up and go about fixing it. Initiations are kid stuff compared to the serious things that go on while running a submarine. SCPO(SS),Ret.
9/19/2009 8:27 AM
Something to consider. When I was a lowly fireman, I got my first eyeful, back in the early 1990s, of what went on for the chief selectees. It lowered my general level of respect for CPOs, which as, at that time, stratospheric. This is something you chiefs should consider - regardless of what it does for you, think about what it does to those you lead.
I gradually became more cool with the process, but never having gone through it myself (my career path led to khaki pants by other avenues), I've always been skeptical. There is certainly an element of coercion in the process and an element of mickey mouse.
Add me to the list of folks who would love to see a four to six week CPO indoc course. Leaving as a PO1 and returning as a Chief with a renewed sense of military bearing and naval tradition would help out everyone.
9/19/2009 10:11 AM
Anonymous from 9/18/2009 11:32 AM
"I don't see where anyone in the wardroom who hasn't been through the process themselves (prior enlisted)gets off demeaning a chief. The Genuines might refer to a non participant as a chief PETTY OFFICER but theyv'e earned the right to do so. Most "O"'s, probably including one who claims to be a Srvd_SSN_CO, have not."
Really? Really? Wow, just wow. That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. Sure, making Chief is an accomplishment and going through the initiation is a rite of passage, but it is certainly not the only one we (the Navy) have. That CO went through some kind of commissioning experience, and whatever you think of NROTC or USNA, it is a hell of thing to make it through 4 years. Not only that, but what about Power School Prototype, SOBC, SOAC, and PCO school? Interesting that you can discount years and years of schooling, screening, and training by saying it doesn't stack up to a few weeks or days of CPO initiation.
9/19/2009 3:06 PM
Anons 5:14 and 11:32 are missing the point. I am not comparing anyone’s accomplishments. I am saying that the wardroom has no business belittling a chief who chooses not to go through the initiation process as Srvd said his did. Anon 5:42 also states that the navy would be fine without chiefs or CO’s for that matter. Doesn’t sound like a lot of sea time between those two posters.
9/19/2009 10:14 PM
Is it the habit of a seasoned Chief to misrepresent what others say, or belittle them for their opinions? I was very specific. I stated that if every chief died tomorrow, the Navy would continue to operate. Do you dispute that?
In a machine as vast as the Navy, everyone is replaceable. It is the sea time which you assume I lack (more than a decade, by the way - and it's amusing that you assume I must not be a Chief simply because I disagree with you) that has taught me that fact.
Besides, it showed a distinct lack of the ideals that chiefs embody to set such a bad example here. Because of the public behavior of a mess, others felt justified in belittling a chief who refused initiation. It endorsed disrespect of that chief's office, and it took private business out of the mess. Perhaps the real problem in the example we're discussing wasn't the wardroom, but the mess.
Even if a man chooses not to initiate, to undermine him in front of the wardroom and his division because of that fact is inexcusably poor leadership on the part of the other chiefs on board. To further penalize the men he leads is even worse, and it happens all the time.
9/20/2009 1:13 AM
OK, I’ll play this one more time and maybe we can let this thread get back to congratulating all of the new chiefs. BTW, if you actually read what I wrote, you would see that I never assumed what your rank or rate was, unless you were in Srvd wardroom of course.
So, if all of the chiefs in the navy died today would the Navy continue to operate? Same question re all CO’s. Let’s add all O’s and/or all flag O’s. Hell, let’s throw all PO1’s into the coffins too.
Answer to all of the above is yes, the navy would continue to operate but not because these people are irrelevant (some probably are) but because they would be replaced. New leaders would come forward as they always have. Does this mean that we don’t respect the leaders that we have now because they can be replaced? For me, the answer to that question is no. Can’t speak for others.
9/20/2009 10:00 AM
Interesting comments re: loss of all CPO's. If you do a little digging about USN in WWII, lot of ships and submarines in 1943 and later were operating with slick arm first class and "Tojo" CPO's. It was all OJT. Ship systems were simpler then, not so easy to do now. However, my last two patrols on SSBN 619B in 1966, we only had four CPO's onboard. First class filled in and stood diving officer watch and all COW underway. I qualified and stood inport duty chief during my last upkeep in Rota. We made the upkeep and patrol without any problems. A number of us that stood CPO watches, and filled in as dept. CPO had been on the boat since launching in 1962 and knew the drill really well. And no, we didn't get to move into the goat locker.
Question is, where did all the Chiefs disappear to? New construction!! 637 class were sliding down the launching ways like hotcakes, and at tail end of the 41 for freedom construction. Their replacements were 1st and 2nd class PO's many from diesel boats.
Keep a zero bubble..........
DBFTMC(SS)USNRET
9/20/2009 8:24 PM
CPO "Induction" is an obsolete practice now used primarily for the entertainment of the current chiefs at the expense of the selectees. It is a "tradition" that is outmoded and should be discontinued as the many of the "training" evolutions are actually just hazing in disguise. If the current CPOs want to build comaraderie and teamwork with the selectees, then they should FULLY participate temselves in the current "exercises." Maybe they would then end the degrading treatment of the selectees.
9/20/2009 11:45 PM
"CPO,"
Having observed and participated in the most recent Induction process I can only say that your suggestion that we do away with it altogether is way off the mark.
There were more than a few in there that needed the process more than I can say and it did wonders to improve their "heart" and commitment to their Sailors vice thinking only of themselves and doing things half-way and leaving them for someone else to finish.
Is that the kind of Chiefs you want in your Navy?
Have you seen the process recently?
Being as you can't even have them drop for pushups as a punishment anymore there's not to much that's irrelevant to training these former First Classes to prepare for the incredible responsibilities they will take on as Chiefs.
Chief B
9/21/2009 12:53 PM
Not sure where you watched CPO selectees NOT get dropped for push ups- but that is still happening along with many other hazing activities (disguised as training). The entire program shouldn't go away as it's steeped in great tradition-but it needs to be modified and should be ACROSS the board. Basically meaning if the guys are doing it in Kings Bay- that same training should be going on in Groton. Likewise- The subs deployed or underway should be following the same "lesson plans"
9/25/2009 6:13 AM
Congrats to all the new Chiefs :)
Many CPO's know what the purpose of the entire transition season is and work hard to make it meaningful, fun and special for the selectees. Many selectees have a great experience and will talk about (to the Goatlocker) for years to come. Cheers to them!
9/25/2009 6:18 AM
Just like to point out to those haven't done it (yet), the "initiation" day is the celebration for a lot of very hard and productive work by both the new and old Chiefs. Nobody is unchanged by it!
9/27/2009 11:57 AM
I'm a Chief myself, been through "induction" and got a lot of training out of the real training... not so much from the "fun and games." No, I'm not going to go into details of what I saw, and what I went through, but "complete bull____" describes the season well. "THE Mess" is "A MESS."
Just like every other rank in the Navy, you have the good, the bad, and the ugly. To blindly trust any of these chuckles as my "brother" is not only a joke but will often times end up hurting a bit when you realize how much people abuse the word to get someone else to do their damn job.
Congrats to the new selectees. Keep doing what you've been doing and you'll be all right...they wouldn't have selected you if that wasn't true, and nobody is going to keep you from getting pinned on the 16th unless you fail the PFA or get in trouble. Don't get brainwashed -keep your sense of reality through induction.
8/11/2010 8:11 AM
sorry...I forgot to add something... every Chief has a different idea of what a Chief is/ is supposed to do. You will be told that "USN" stands for Unity, Service, Navigation. Really? It's United States Navy- don't let anybody fool you into thinking it means anything else. Any other buzzwords or acronyms you see made up "What does C.H.I.E.F. stand for?" tend to come from idiots that need to play word games to make you think, because they don't have anything important to teach you. Also, flipping burgers all damn summer for a "khaki ball"... crap food and I have to wear my uniform and sing and dance "for the Mess" with my gf present? FUCK OFF!
8/11/2010 8:18 AM
I was recently selected and I already find myself leary of going through induction. This has a lot to do with the comments that have been thrown my way and a few things i have seen along the way.
I was very excitd the day i found out I was selected but after the informal meet and greet my excitment has dissappeared.
I heard repleatedly how they were going to "let us have it" and they have so many "new" things for use to do this year.
A few people were selected from our unit and we were told that we needed to pick who was going to be ginger and mariann. The other person was told to prepare and buy a red gilligan shirt
You know the original with the long sleeves and the white pants and we needed to memorize the song for gilligans island both versions as they are going to make us perform it as a trio.
I didn't like how some trainers refered to it as humiliations training or learning the act of humility. If someone has a big head about being advanced they have a big head, 2 months of chief training won't "cure" that problems EVER and those chiefs are always treated passivly after pinned.
Case in point there was a chief who was a D*** to all the new selectees. We were warned by all the E-6/7/8 there to watch out for him. Why if they know this do they still allow him to be there. After having a two minute chat with him I felt like all he was after was to make us pay for all the stuff he went through during induction. Like humiliation was a rite of passage not a learning tool.
I thought induction was about building the kind of chief that would be a great leader/mentor run the navy. One day be promoted to be a senior or master chief.
Why then put such a bad spin on being a chief with "initiation". Making it seem like a fraternity where you are humiliated and subjected to torture just to be in the "mess". ICE COFFIN.. LIVE CHICKEN..EATING CRUDE WTFlock...???
I think there is balance out there to make the training more professional and less like a fraternity.
Personally at this point i am seriously thinking it would be better to go to boot camp again attend all the training and do a round in the gas chamber than complete induction.
oh and as for exapmles i can't tell you the number of times i have seen cross dressing performances of selectees at all hours of the am.. or seen them with a pair of underwear on their head with a chocolate bar melted and smeared to look like poop in the crotch. Saying that this is limited to only one or two commands is a farse.
I have seen this from commands oversea/remote and state side both east and west coast. Althought not so much on the ship I was on, becasue the training always took place behind closed doors and the slectees were supe tight lipped about it there.
So there are my two cents..not worth much when rubbed together..
But i do want to say congrats to those who made it.
Better luck next time to those who didn't make it and don't give up..2nd time was a charm for me. keep your records up to date makes sure all of your evals are in your record and don't take it personal. don't be afraid to ask those who just got selected what they put in their package.
fairwinds and calms seas to all and have a FINE NAVY DAY!!
7/15/2011 3:58 PM
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