Another Sub Skipper Fired
CDR Joseph Nosse, Commanding Officer of USS Kentucky (SSBN 737) was relieved of command by the SUBRON 17 Commander today:
“Cmdr. Nosse exhibited inadequate leadership and oversight of the crew in the areas of operations and administration,” Early said. “The determination came after a series of external assessments and observations.” Early did not have details immediately available on the specific shortfalls, who had first observed them or when and whether Nosse’s relief was the result of an investigation.CDR Nosse began his CO tour with the Gold Crew in February 2010, and accepted the Omaha Trophy on behalf of his crew later that year. He assumed command of the combined crew in August of this year in preparation for the boat's mid-life refueling. Nosse is the 20th Navy CO fired this year. This is getting old. Even if he did used to be an officer detailer, no one wants to see someone's career end like this.
posted by Bubblehead at 10:06 PM
116 Comments:
Got burned with a CPA <1kyds in the Strait. Unfortunate.
10/20/2011 10:11 PM
What the hell is it with these boomer captains anyway?
10/20/2011 10:39 PM
subpac found no fault with that cpa. and it wasn't in the strait. everythings inside 1k in the strait.
10/20/2011 10:45 PM
Before you post you should have all the facts straight. The firing was contributed to the BSP they conducted in the straits. They CPA a 22kt Tanker at 400 to 600 yds (USCG est.). They lost the big flick in what they was doing. It is sad he got fired but training first starts with the JO's in the wardroom.
10/20/2011 10:54 PM
CMDR Nosse was a great captain. One of the best the vessel has seen to date. Unfortunately, after the combination of the crew, and the loss of a lot of talent, he was left with a very inexperienced crew, and wardroom. He will be deeply missed.
10/20/2011 11:20 PM
The range was 600 yds when she surfaced in front of. The CPA would have been some where aft of the sail I.E 0 if the merchant hadn't turned left...... Merch registered a protest with Sector Seattle..
Number 21 should be this week. Same squadron...
10/20/2011 11:38 PM
There was no loss of the "big flick." What happened was unavoidable. Contact came out of nowhere and CPA on top. However, it is sad he was fired, mostly due to the Chiefs.
10/20/2011 11:43 PM
It is too bad this CO was fired. When the CO he relieved was due to be fired at any time due to.. the issues he experienced, which is why he was relieved early. He gets to move on with his career, while a great leader had his career ruined by the inexperience of the crew.
10/21/2011 12:40 AM
He was my XO years ago. He was great guy, so sorry to see him get relieved early.
10/21/2011 3:49 AM
I lost a good Capt in '98, it sucked.
10/21/2011 4:28 AM
Joe was a good man.
10/21/2011 4:33 AM
Also heard about another who has his neck sitting there on the block...lets see if that ax falls today or next week!
Wasn't this the same boat in which the CO (the little guy) told his wardroom and CPO quarters he would quit if they wanted him too?
10/21/2011 6:04 AM
Joe is a great man. I know none of the circumstances. But if you are looking for a stand-up fellow, he's your man.
10/21/2011 6:24 AM
"...while a great leader had his career ruined by the inexperience of the crew."
Scott, you still bitter over the Ehime Maru flap?
You can take the 1120 out of USNA, but you can't take the USNA out of the 1120.
10/21/2011 6:35 AM
"What happened was unavoidable. Contact came out of nowhere and CPA on top."
Contacts (merchants) don't "come out of nowhere" in Puget Sound or the Strait of Juan de Fuca. Not a real big secret where they'll be (and where you SHOULDN'T BE) when you surface. Just sayin'.
10/21/2011 6:51 AM
Don't "Monday morning quarterback", but unless things have changed, there are merchant transit lanes in the Strait and there are somewhat (no merchants but could be small boats) safe areas between the lanes where we always surfaced. Did the race track maneuver and always came to P/D in water we had been been through. Hard to believe you don't see the merch before transitioning from P/D to surface.
But not there so...
10/21/2011 7:29 AM
Boy,have times changed. Back in the day, as long as there was no collision, it was no harm, no foul but check the lessons learned. I guess if the Merch had not complained, nothing would have happened. SSBNs operating out of Holy Loch had close CPAS with the ferries in the Irish Sea practically every sea trial or work up due to the close quarters and limited operating area in the Irish Sea. CSS14 would have had to relieve nearly every skipper if it was an issue.
10/21/2011 10:18 AM
Wow, if they keep this up, the leading mess crank will be CO.
10/21/2011 10:44 AM
Is this complaint available anywhere?
10/21/2011 11:12 AM
Wtfdnucsailor: Totally! I don't want a 600 yard CPA, but I won't say I haven't seen one. If the contact has a bearing rate, that's sometimes the best you can do.
10/21/2011 1:37 PM
This comment has been removed by the author.
10/21/2011 1:54 PM
Edited to correct a typo.
I don't think I'd blanch at a 600 yd CPA (we've all had them) so much as WHERE it (apparently) occurred and the circumstances (surfacing?) under which it occurred. Puget Sound/Strait of Juan de Fuca is a heavily regulated TSS (Rule 10, anyone?) Just being IN one? No big deal. SURFACING in one? BIG F$&@($G DEAL! If I were on the container ship and saw 18,000 tons of submarine magically appear right in front of me (if that's indeed what happened), I probably would have lodged a complaint, too...After I changed my underwear.
10/21/2011 1:57 PM
I disagree, he was not anywhere close to the best CO the ship has had! The blew Crew had a string of good skippers, just not the last one. The current breed of CO's and XO's do not have the skills needed to effectively lead a crew of today's sailors. Add that to a bunch of Admirals who never let go of their pet project programs in favor of the bigger picture and you get the micromanaged, scared and clueless leaders we have today. This problem was predicted after the last submarine collision due to the poor culture on board. SubPac is also to blame for even having this "green crew" deploy. No good could come of it and none did! Hopefully when the ship leaves overhaul it leaves with a good crew ready to do their jobs the right way, and those mentioned above let them!
10/21/2011 4:28 PM
Interested to hear what the issue in the Chief's quarters were. Were the Chief's not upholding the standards. I wonder if any other divisions other than RC division will be doing a stand-down in the near future or will be be conducting a submarine force-wide stand-down.
10/21/2011 6:17 PM
Bull shit it was the chiefs. He is the CO and if his boat is falling short, it is his responsibility.
10/21/2011 6:48 PM
Just a minute. He took over in early 2010, now it's the end of 2011, and you want to blame the crew? It's been almost two years!! You cannot keep blaming people all the way through your whole tour.
BTW, the stories on the CPA vary so much I wonder if anyone knows the real story.
10/21/2011 7:08 PM
Is this close CPA story available anywhere online?
10/21/2011 8:05 PM
Pardon me, but unless you've been there, you have no idea... The cheifs were not allowed to lead! Sad but true. Enlisted of any rank are still enlisted and only blamed, not listened to in times like these. I feel for all RC div out there because they are eternally short of experience and getting worse with every firing or good job offer in the private sector!
10/21/2011 9:53 PM
For all the "experts", if you don't know the true story, STFU. The SJDF is no place to be screwing around in and I assure you they were not. I have been in and out of there more then 50 times and each time it has been challenging and dynamic. If you operate as many times as we do, in and out, there is bound to be an incident here and there. Hind sight is always 20/20. I know some of the chiefs on that ship and I garantee they are first rate. So back to my first statement. STFU. The true story will come out sonner or later. The question that needs asking is why are so many CO's getting the ax? If the CO goes the XO should too. He should be removed for immediate upgrading since he served with a CO that got relieved and probably picked up some bad habits as well. Maybe if JO's, DH's, XO's didn't have such short tours of duty they might become more savy. Who really knows but it truly will be the entire ship that pays the price. The other unfortunate part of all of this is that the crew, most likely, will take years to recover and headed into the hardest time a ship must endure. A refueling overhaul. This is a really bad way to start. The one thing I truly wonder is how the old blue crew CO got off scott free. Almost hitting the bridge, failing an ORSE, daring his crew to tell him to leave and multiple other issues would have been enough for me. Was it because he was Mexican? Who knows. For Joe: You are a good man. It is what it is so stay strong and move on. Good Luck
10/21/2011 10:04 PM
haha, if any of my CO's had asked me if they should leave, I would have said yes, just for the hell of it. That's not leadership, it's ridiculous!
10/21/2011 11:02 PM
Corrected (Joel please delete previous comment):
All of you detractors should be ashamed. Have you walked in their shoes. Yes there may be good COs and not so good ones. Those who really care about their crews and those who look a little too much after themselves.
It is nevertheless a helluva tough job and it is not handed to you on a silver platter. You have to work your butt off to get selected and work everyday to keep your command pin intact.
None are perfect. Even the best have chinks in their armor that could bring them down. So, put your in Joe's shoes for just a minute. If you think something likes this could never happen to you - that's pretty arrogant.
Don't you think the humiliation of being fired is enough. Stand down.
Serving SSN CO
10/22/2011 12:28 AM
@10/21/2011 6:48 PM
If the JO's were sub par, isn't it the chiefs' job to train them? For the number of times that I've heard that chiefs really run the navy, it always seems like some officer takes it in the face while the goat locker circles the wagons because "it's not our responsibility."
10/22/2011 1:48 AM
Don't think for a minute that the CPO quarters ought to take it to heart for allowing their CO to be canned. Each one of those Chiefs should be saying to themselves, "How did we let this happen?" It is the job of the CPO quarters to uphold "the standard", train the JO's, and provide forceful backup day in and day out. If they weren't doing that, they are the ones "ultimately" responsible for their CO's demise.
The "standard" isn't new, regardless of the CO, a true "Chief" doesn't need his skipper to tell him what it is. Unless the CO is charged with personal misconduct, I put this squarely on the CPO quarters.
10/22/2011 3:08 AM
'The Chiefs Were Not Allowed To Lead' ?? Allowed ???
How many of the M/S/CPOs had been given LOIs by this CO (BTW - I got mine (SSN EDMC)!)?
How many put their Anchors on the line? I would like to know.
Unless this CO had field stripped a few Dept/Div Chiefs, then of course the Goat Locker bears a large part of this.
10/22/2011 6:51 AM
It is a little ridiculous to be on number 20. To me that screams a disconnect between the screening process and getting to the boats. Sad thing is, COs are not the only ones getting fired. DHs have been gettin relieved left and right as well. Could there be issues with training up in CT? Don't COs mentor the XOs when they get ready for their respective tours?
A may be ou in left field but that is just a thought.
10/22/2011 6:59 AM
@ Erica, you are on the money. With as many heads that have been rolled (DHs & COs), there is a root cause that has to involve - at least - selection and training. IMHO, either those responsible for selection and training, or the process for selection and training are the ultimate root cause(s).
10/22/2011 8:13 AM
It's a bit of a buyer's market. Fewer boats, lots of folks waiting in the wings. If an incumbent doesn't hack it, why not pass the job onto the next person in the standby list.
As an ex-detailer (if there is such a thing - 'once a detailer, always a detailer') and a long-time observer of the scene, I would gently suggest that anyone thinking the Navy's personnel system kindly or easygoing is misled. This is a tough business, more so for what's at stake, and the system is ruthless in protecting Navy interests. There's no system reason to avoid being tough on those who show they can't hack it.
As to blame going to KY's goat locker or JOs for a botched surfacing, that's just plain silly. Whatever the faults and foibles of these folks, surfacing in hazardous waters is the CO's game and his OOD's.
Finally, yesterday ran into a served SSN CO now in major shore command. Discussing KY, he said what all us post-COs have said at one time or another: 'There but for the grace of god go I.' None of us were immune to at least the potential of a fatal screw-up. Actual in the case of 3 of my contemporaries in command: 7 sailors killed in three separate accidents at sea. I repeat: this is a tough business and the standards we serve under are essential. The CO gets the glory. He also gets the accountability, which differentiates us from all the non-sea-services. Good that that is so.
10/22/2011 8:33 AM
"It's a bit of a buyer's market. Fewer boats..."
Without an inkling of downsizing reflected in the number of USNA graduates.
"The Mission: To ... graduate leaders who are dedicated to a career of naval service..."
Too many of these graduates are not intent on naval careers beyond their committed service of 6 or 7 years, they are women with ticking clocks, men with aspirations to politics and law practices, and relatives of serving politicians to whom favors are being granted.
RTP
10/22/2011 9:34 AM
"It's a bit of a buyer's market. Fewer boats, lots of folks waiting in the wings."
Not for the mid-90's YGs who are the CO's now. You got about a 50-50 chance of being CO if you simply made the choice to stay in. (cumulative probability of XO selection[0.6] and CO selection [0.8] - DH screening was close enough to 100% to call it that)
10/22/2011 9:56 AM
50/50 to command is way below the opportunity of yore, when 'can fog a mirror' was the criterion.
10/22/2011 10:23 AM
Why is RC div even being mentioned in the context of this ratfuck?? Go talk to the girls in the sonar shack about their contacts and their not seeing 'em.
10/22/2011 10:25 AM
"50/50 to command is way below the opportunity of yore, when 'can fog a mirror' was the criterion." - RD
In your opinion, RD, was Rickover most responsible for upgrading sub CO standards, or something/somone else?
10/22/2011 1:19 PM
"The CO gets the glory. He also gets the accountability, which differentiates us from all the non-sea-services. Good that that is so."
I agree with this but don't you think that Navy would want to set these guys up so they would not fail? There are instances where guys are put in charge that should not have been, but 20? That is ridiculously high. If COs keep getting fired left and right, then who is going to want the job?
I sure wouldn't for fear of looking at someone the wrong way. Have mistakes always been made but now they are not being tolerated? Is it automatically the COs head that rolls when the blame cannot be placed on anyone else?
10/22/2011 1:39 PM
How come sqdn doesn't EVER have responsibility in these performance firings? Isn't the Commodore and deputy 'possed to mentor COs? Isn't the foundation of everything subs to train the people under your charge?
And btw...if the pool of COs and XOs is too small and inadequate, go f@#$ yourselves. These guys are no less (or more) capable than anyone in the past. They are under an incredible magnifying glass that gets more focused each generation. They will never live up to those that were allowed to make mistakes, and especially those that were not expected to report every nit-pic antic that happened onboard. The job just keeps getting tougher for those that stick it out.
10/22/2011 1:53 PM
Crew was too worried about the surfacing maneuver than worrying about contact picture BEFORE surfacing.
That's a big deal.
Like, Philadelphia big.
10/22/2011 2:37 PM
Job is just too hard these days. COs/XOs/COBs/CPOs/crew just can't keep up with the B.S. requirements. I made the same screwups as many of these did (excluding the little head screwup!), but survived to star level - was just the need for people in the 70s and 80s...sad.
RFO
10/22/2011 2:54 PM
"Why is RC div even being mentioned ..."
Grow a brain!
10/22/2011 5:32 PM
Oldman said:
"I have been in and out of there more then 50 times and each time it has been challenging and dynamic. If you operate as many times as we do, in and out, there is bound to be an incident here and there."
Only 50? Dude, get some time on the pond. It isn't that hard as long as you keep the main thing the main thing. Traffic is predictable and if you have good command of your ship, transits through the SOJDF are "routine".
Ret ANAV.
10/22/2011 6:13 PM
Nosse and Somlai were JOs one Tautog at the same time....
PW
10/22/2011 6:34 PM
Ouch!
I agree, where were the COB and XO, and ALL THE CPOS for the surfacing evoulution? (If this is why he was fired)
If they weren't there too helping, fire them too.
Been there and done that (safely)
10/22/2011 8:24 PM
Crew was too worried about the surfacing maneuver than worrying about contact picture BEFORE surfacing.
That's a big deal.
Like, Philadelphia big.
There is absolutely nothing, NOTHING about the surfacing maneuver (procedure) for a boomer that should cause worry enough to distract the section tracking party.
_If_ that really was the cause, then the Weps, CSDEA, STLCPO, FTLCPO, and SWO better be getting their share of the pain for completely inadequate training.
And if I have to take ANOTHER written CTE on sonar cues resulting in a close CPA based on this incident, I'm going to punch someone in the face. Twice.
10/22/2011 10:13 PM
The WEPS was also fired for this incident. I am curious as to what happened to those in the shack and the con. And that shack was very inexperienced... There were only TWO senior sups in there, the other sups were very junior.
10/22/2011 11:50 PM
"In your opinion, RD, was Rickover most responsible for upgrading sub CO standards, or something/somone else?"
The KOG made sure his PCOs 1). could boil water, and 2). were not so horribly inept that they were certain to fail in command. But no: other than the water-boiling thing and catching those who might drool and babble at the wardroom table, I'd not say the KOG did anything to raise command standards.
His selection criteria for nuclear power training did raise the overall intelligence standards of the force. But I'd give major credit for high command standards and high force standards in general to two factors, the tradition of the force (coming out of WW-II and throughout the Cold War) and the simple fact that submarine operations have enough inherent danger in them that those of us who drive the boats (all of us, CO or not) are pretty careful to make sure that the shipmate we puts whales on is up to snuff. Plus, the various screening and selection steps in the path to submarine command put an objective meritocratic force on the whole process that's pretty Darwinian in getting best-of-best to command. Perfect, no. But damned good and no one has ever said it's other than quality oriented.
As to the comment wondering where is the Squadron in all this, it's pretty rare to see a squad dog fired anywhere (zipper probs aside). It is not rare to see served squadron commanders side-tracked and slow-rolled out of hot-runner status for future jobs. I've written elsewhere that we put too much on the squadrons, duplicating IMA duties and focusing on the materiel side at the expense of what I see as Job One, training and certifying crews.
YMMV.
10/23/2011 5:33 AM
Only 50? Dude, get some time on the pond. It isn't that hard as long as you keep the main thing the main thing. Traffic is predictable and if you have good command of your ship, transits through the SOJDF are "routine".
Ret ANAV.
+1 (A hundred times over)
As previously mentioned...If you have no idea what merchants in PS/SJDF are doing/going to do, then you have no business being there.
10/23/2011 5:48 AM
I find it amazing how so many can crucify a man who has given so much to our country. If you don't know him, don't judge him. This was his first time sailing with all those others in the leadership positions that have been mentioned (XO, WEPS, NAV, ANAV, COB and most of the Chiefs, and over 50% of the crew). We can all be "Monday Morning Quarterbacks" but the bottom line is he was forced to execute a bad plan and got burned. He was held accountable while those who made the decision to send the boat out in this condition are not.
10/23/2011 9:05 AM
Although The CO is ultimately responsible here, I have to agree with the premise of the last post. Having taken a ship into and out of overhaul I have suffered the pain of squadron manning ignorance. Most do not understand or appreciate how difficult it is for a crew to make those transitions. We sacrifice the shipyard crews to man those going to sea. If we use the same model as NEWCON (usually the best and brightest)for overhaul boats maybe incidents like this can be avoided.
10/23/2011 10:24 AM
WAH!!!!FREAKIN WAH!!!! The reason 20+ CO's have been fired is because people mess up and they need to be held accountable. Everyone wants to assign blame (Root cause anyone?) and put a plan together to fix what's wrong. What's missing is the stand-up sailor who says "It's my fault." everyone just wants to point the finger. It is just the same as the drunk who says "I'm sick I can't help myself". We are just starting to see the effects of the “me” generation being in positions of power and now they can’t hack it. The CO is responsible period. Jesus have you all forgotten you can’t delegate responsibility. Obviously, you have based on the comments “The E-7’s couldn’t lead, the XO should get fired too, they weren’t trained right, they were too junior, everyone should get fired….etc…..etc….” Thank god my papers are in. I want out of this canoe club, it’s just not fun anymore.
10/23/2011 11:11 AM
"Although The CO is ultimately responsible here, I have to agree with the premise of the last post. Having taken a ship into and out of overhaul I have suffered the pain of squadron manning ignorance. Most do not understand or appreciate how difficult it is for a crew to make those transitions. We sacrifice the shipyard crews to man those going to sea. If we use the same model as NEWCON (usually the best and brightest)for overhaul boats maybe incidents like this can be avoided."
Uh, you are probably right and I agree with all your points.
Just one little problem though....the boat hasn't been in the yards yet. They are GOING into the yards.
Bottom line, if the CO doesn't think he can execute the mission with what he has, he needs to know when to say STOP.
Of course that's not a career enchancer either, but it's not his boat, it belongs to the taxpayer and they expect (no, they require) the CO to make the right decision. You know, the whole Honor, Courage, Commitment thing.
10/23/2011 12:53 PM
If you think new con sailors are best and brightest, you are sadly mistaken. Screening for those is limited at best to not being fat and no NJP with a valid clearance. FDNF boat screenings are more rigorous.
As to the CO, he was able topic Sailors from TWO crews so if there was a crew issue that is on him as he ultimately picked who was manning the boat.
10/23/2011 2:05 PM
To the ret ANAV's who think every merchant follows the rules in the SJDF: How about you get some time on the pond. I have seen mechants, tug in tows and fishing vessles all operate in the sep zone. The Kapitan Man operated consitantly in the Sep zone. Fishing vessles consistantly transit in the sep zone. Since you didn't tell anyone how much experience you have, I can only guess that you have been in and out enough to gain a basic knowledge of the Strait. It's the one guy who isn't following the rules who is going to burn you. I'm not saying that happened in this case but if you think for a minute that every vessle is following the established traffic sceme it's a good thing your retired. What the heck does "keeping the Main thing the Main thing mean?" There are dozens of "main things" on the ship. Please enlighten us on how to keep the "main thing the main thing".
10/23/2011 2:15 PM
@ ANON 1253
"Just one little problem though....the boat hasn't been in the yards yet. They are GOING into the yards."
If you look at the boats going into the SY, there is a huge vaccum sucking the talent off by the Master Chief mafia well before they enter the yards. Many hot running and hard charging CPO and CPO eligible sailor is transferred to a sea going command to better their opportunity while the broken, derlict, and underway allergic stay in the SY. Granted there are a great number of super senior leaders carrying the load in the SY, but the manning deficiencies are standard and this is unfair to those ships.
10/23/2011 3:22 PM
Oldman sez: Since you didn't tell anyone how much experience you have, I can only guess that you have been in and out enough to gain a basic knowledge of the Strait.
Since you asked: I grew up in Puget Sound...and I'm not speaking metaphorically. Worked for Foss Maritime in High School taking log booms between Olympia and Port Angeles and Sequim. Spent my summers driving my boat from Tacoma up to and thru the San Juans and points north. Spent three out of four weekends (when I wasn't taking a submarine to sea) racing sailboats all over the sound and in the Strait (out of RVYC). Did several runs on box ships with the pilots between PA and the Port of Tacoma. Your observations on the "unpredictability" of commercial traffic in the Sound/SJDF (fisherman being the exception, but only marginally so) are duly noted. (Kapitan Man doesn't count, and we all know why)
10/23/2011 3:47 PM
(Oh, and the other ANAV knows the sound just as well)
10/23/2011 3:49 PM
Great. So it is established that every trip in and out of the Strait is not the same. Your experience is dully noted and questionable at best. What certificates do you hold? (tell the truth). My hunch would be none since you would have most likely continued down that path to a more lucrative living in the maritime industry instead of just being the ANAV of a submarine. When, in high school could you have had the time to move log booms between the places you mentioned? At night? That is a long trip doing 3 kts. Foss doesn't hire summer help so they must only move booms on the weekend eh? Anyway, there are always vessles in the sep zone wether or not you want to admit it. Just call sector and ask the question. Thinking otherwise is ignorant. If you want to live by the "big ocean theory" then good luck to you. I'm still wondering about "keeping the main thing the main thing". Is it just a catchy phrase or can you put some meat behind it?
10/23/2011 5:03 PM
Deleted a comment at commenter's request.
10/23/2011 7:06 PM
First things first. Although the burden of command rests with the CO and solely on the CO. None of us should be pointing fingers or saying who failed. The burden is great and none of us truly understands the difficulties unless you were a CO. Bad decisions happen the reality is everyone that is currently serving in the force needs to stop and take pause and look to see if your going to be the next article in Navy Crimes. People in glass houses should’nt be throwing the first stone.
Oldman brings up a good point why are some many CO’s being axed. The problem is the Submarine Force never really gets to the root of the problem but rather it comes up with 20 different things that the boats have to do without really fixing the problem.
The Submarine Force is going through a rough time and Jo’s are not trained to be DH’s and DH’s are not trained to become XO’s. The same applies to LPO’s that become CPO’s. More and more I see XO’s having to do the DH’s job because they are not as effective because of poor mentoring and training received from previous commands. I seen this issue not just on a boat but from the squadron level as well.
Unfortunately, I truly feel not just for the CO but the crew. Now begins the 24 monitor watches and the pain of having every single program scrutinized. We all know that when this happens a POA&M maybe forthcoming.
We haven’t even touched the subject of how many CPO’s, DH’s have been DFC’d? If there is an increase why?
I could right all day but what is the point because no one wants to fix the problems just keep putting on bandaids for solutions.
10/23/2011 9:47 PM
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein
Seems to me that the Navy is caught in this loop...
Old Chief from the dark ages
Jerry
10/23/2011 11:38 PM
If all of the ANAVS are done comparing sizes, please zip up your pants and move on.
Thank you.
10/24/2011 10:55 AM
Perhaps a bit off topic, but I was just wondering if any CO (or other officer for that matter) ever has their dolphins pulled when they screw up.
I know enlisted men would most likely get that.
Just curious.
10/24/2011 12:22 PM
This comment has been removed by the author.
10/24/2011 4:33 PM
Blaming the Chiefs Quarters is absolutely ridiculous.
Surfacing, especially in high contact density waters, is a MAJOR event and is 100% the CO's decision to go up.
I also believe the OOD, Sonar Sup., and the FTOW own a slice of this indecent as well.
If inadequate training was reveled, then the Weps and XO should get canned.
That is all, carry on.
10/24/2011 5:12 PM
Who is the COB on this boat?
10/24/2011 5:12 PM
"The Submarine Force is going through a rough time and Jo’s are not trained to be DH’s and DH’s are not trained to become XO’s. The same applies to LPO’s that become CPO’s. More and more I see XO’s having to do the DH’s job because they are not as effective because of poor mentoring and training received from previous commands. I seen this issue not just on a boat but from the squadron level as well."
After a decade of poor leadership from the very top it's no surprise to see these problems coming home to roost.
The Sub Force may be past the point of no return - structurally there seem few options going forward which don't involved SHARING more responsibility up the chain of command, because the line is no longer primed with a sufficient number of competent URLs to succeed at sea. Thus can we expect continuously diminishing dependence on individual officer performance - despite the vicious cycle induced by giving future leaders less and less experience handling responsibility, begetting less and less competence at higher levels down the road.
Somehow I doubt the Flags will find the collective courage to systemically trust their COs again - despite still enjoying many talented and capable leaders, we are now cursed with too many inexperienced (or worse, corrupted by poor leadership models) officers in key positions like DH, XO, and CO. It's not only a problem in the Wardroom - but we need solid COs to lead efforts to fix broken ratings, processes, training pipelines, and cultures.
Is VADM Richardson the answer? Nearly a year in command of the Force and all we've seen in the form of change are 5 pillars (never spoken by inspection teams, squadrons, or support commands), a new design (not practiced by squadrons, program offices, or TYCOM staff), a month-long homework project to deliver another navel-gazing assessment (to give bodies on shore duty something to do?), and another stand-down to talk about why we suck (to celebrate our new heritage?). What standard should the Sub Force expect for delivering visible results, and have we met that standard in the Force Commander's first year?
Time to downsize with a vengeance, until our size matches our current talent pool. Get rid of the folks who poison our culture with ever-growing dependence on shore-based responsibility. Start anew from a smaller, healthier core. That's the only effective alternative I can see, but the problem is that it takes courage to attack entitlements like shore jobs for has-beens and never-weres... not to mention the entire industry that has cropped up to "help" us solve immediate problems by farming out long-term responsibility. This downsizing should be IMMEDIATE and SIGNIFICANT - the audacious action of a bold commander acting to the limits of his authority.
10/24/2011 5:28 PM
^^^^^^^
But how do you weed-out the "poison" when they have wonderful Fitreps?
10/24/2011 5:58 PM
"But how do you weed-out the "poison" when they have wonderful Fitreps?"
Stop letting them write their own fitreps.
10/24/2011 7:15 PM
The sky is not falling and the submarine force is not "past the point of no return". Yes we've had two Sub CO's fired this year - but we also have an average of 9 to 11 SSNs deployed at one time, plus three subs forward deployed in Guam, and all the SSBNs on patrol. We also had this year's Stockdale award winning CO and a Submarine win the Battenberg Cup (BSE). There is a lot of great work and selfless commitment that happens through out the Subforce that doesn't get the publicity to offset a single negative event like this firing. I'm proud to be part of the team and I'm honored to serve with the great young men who are enlisting everyday. I'm still on active duty and will leave this as an anonymous post for obvious reasons - but then again I'm not taking cheap shots at the Subforce CDR.
10/25/2011 6:17 AM
And the beat goes on: http://hamptonroads.com/2011/10/norfolk-naval-shipyard-commander-removed-post
10/25/2011 4:01 PM
Captain Thomas' bio...
http://www.ussmissouri.com/files/CAPT%20Thomas%20bio.pdf
He went from PHNSY to NNSY, so he should have been experienced. I remember him from a few meetings during my boat's DMP in Pearl as a no nonsense kind of guy. Very serious, but realistic about SY expectations and weeding out the BS they would try at every opportunity.
10/25/2011 4:41 PM
I had the opportunity to work with Joe years ago. He was a pompous ass who dedicated his life to micro-managing, long hours onboard, and treating his subordinates like a$$. Not to mention he was a very dirty man with hole-ridden, sweat stained t-shirts from his High School years. He was a hard charging individual who was very enthusiastic about making a name for himself in the submarine force. In short, he was the perfect candidate to become a CO. A Zebra's stripes never change and I am sure that Joe has maintained his cockiness throughout the years but he certainly has a lot of experience in the SJDF. Those who have served with him in the past can attest. I am sure the details of the surfacing, BSP, or whatever it was that caused the firing, will be brought to light. Something doesn't seem right about the whole firing bit. BSPs in the SJDF are typical held in a specific location outside of the transit lanes while surfacing can be a controlled evolution to minimize the mostly predictable risks. I am interested in how his abrasive leadership style played into all of this. At the end of the day we can only hope this incident makes the submarine force stronger. I can't help but wonder if he still has those god-awful t-shirts AND socks! Though we never really got along Joe, thanks for the service. Enjoy retirement. Recommend you spend some well deserved quality time with your family.
10/25/2011 8:17 PM
@Erika, Very few people really know how to write their own FITREPs in a way that will get them screened/promoted. What has been happening is that the majority of talented submarine officers have been getting out of the service because they realize that they can make a life for themselves that does not involve the BS of submarine bureaucracy.
10/25/2011 8:32 PM
Wow, F'n JOOY - way to kick a guy when he's down. Air his dirty laundry, literally. Seems a bit petty. I've worked with the guy - he's a great officer and was a great CO.
10/25/2011 9:35 PM
The word on CAPT Thomas is that he went over, kicked some a$$, and forced them to actually deliver. He downgraded the CMC's fitrep, and moved a senior manager to another less challenging position. After that, they finally delivered the first boat on time, and we can't have that can we...
10/26/2011 1:16 AM
^^^^^^^
Who is this Capt. Thomas you speak of, and why bring up his story in an unrelated article?
10/26/2011 10:20 AM
Capt. Thomas had left the Frank Cable about 8 months prior to my arrival, but still his name was spoken with utter disdain and contempt.
Apparently, he was an absolute micro-managing tyrant, that was loathed by EVERYONE in the Repair Department.
10/26/2011 10:29 AM
Obviously F'n JOOY was on Joe Nosse's bad side.
You are/were probably an incompetent boob that he had to work through to get things done.
Joe was sent to PVD to replace a fired micromanaging SY XO. Joe was the bright light in a very dark command. He worked his ass off to get the boat ready for tasking despite being surrounded by idiots. Most of the idiots got the boot as Joe carried the boat on his back into deployment and great success. Battle 'E' blah blah blah... He has an eye for talent and has exploited the best in his people. His firing is a shock to most. F'n JOOY you are an a$$, fcuk off.
10/26/2011 12:08 PM
Joe can't be all that if he was fired from his very first command....just saying.
10/26/2011 12:53 PM
One time at PD in teh strait between the boot of Italy and Sicily I saw the CO on the scope as we came up to PD...pan the scope about 110 degrees to read off the name of the very close merchant we came up on. THEN he yelled "EMERGENCY DEEP". Fun times right there.
10/26/2011 4:06 PM
@usna 1120,
You make a great point. I have never met a detailer that did not get to command unless he really screwed up before hand. The FITREP system assures ducks pick ducks (No offense ducky!). If leadership was ever valued over what a FITREP says or what nuclear pushups you were willing to do, our force would look much different then it does today. Imagine Chester Nimitz surviving in today's Navy.
10/26/2011 7:09 PM
Agreed Chester might have some problems or Bull Halsey, Spruance, and list goes on.
Got to love the nuclear navy. Lets get our hands into everything even if its not in our lane!!!
10/27/2011 3:41 PM
For those of you with SIPRNET access, the Non-Nuclear Incident Report is available on both the CSP and CSF websites. They are lucky they didn't get T-Boned.
Don't want to rely on luck.
Everything that could have gone wrong - did. Read the posts of HAR then fast forward 2.5 years.
10/27/2011 5:59 PM
My first ride as a squadron wienie was on the PVD when the fired CO was the XO. The other poster's comments about the disarray there is true. I remember how pissed he was at us because our report was so long. Funny thing is most of it was the same stuff that had been written 3-6 months before. The boat was not meeting basic nuclear training requirements. The ENG was fired and the EDMC took a knee after the ORSE and the CO was relieved without a band after a TRE. The healing started and the CDR was a big part of the turnaround.
10/28/2011 3:14 AM
Who is the COB on this boat?
10/28/2011 4:32 PM
If it's on the left drawing left on on the right drawing right then no prob 500 or 50000 yds. As an interested ally I wonder what is the major problem, Unreal expectations or Monday morning Qbacking. Just screwing the pooch once is hardly likely to cut the mustard.
Too many good men in too short a time - they can't all be dull, that's for sure. I would suggest that either selection or unrealistic expectations are the answer.
Staunch Ally
10/30/2011 3:09 AM
Reading the report, this was definately a close one. Lots of other things leading up to this also.
10/31/2011 6:24 PM
"Lots of other things?"
A.K.A Turds left over from the little dude he relieved when they combined crews?
So, add close CPA (how close?) to the CO firing list, in addition to Collision, Allision, Grounding - Unless you know the right people.
Any examples from the crowd for when these didn't lead to firing and would have in today's climate?
11/01/2011 3:32 PM
how about the former CSP Chief of Staff who had a collision as CO while he was in the bridge and went on to be a Commodore and CSP COS?
There is also an admiral out there who actually had a collision when he was CO with another U.S. submarine that was on the surface during an exercise...I guess the standards change--close CPA, violation of PED policy, what's next?
11/01/2011 4:10 PM
@4:10pm - Funny thing is, the XO on the ship the admiral hit - has now made admiral. Of course, the XO on the ship that did the hitting - later got fired from his (second) command tour! Sorry, I know it's hard to tell the players without a scorecard...
11/01/2011 4:14 PM
The only report on Kentucky I found (in an admittedly brief search) was for one several months ago (April/May) is that the one? The I read did not sound like it was worth firing the CO over!
11/01/2011 6:26 PM
"XO on the ship that did the hitting - later got fired from his (second) command tour!"
He got fired for hitting something completely different, LMAO!
11/01/2011 8:57 PM
I was on a boat where my CO/XO were Nav/OOD in the *SAME* collision....
XO later got fired from his CO tour due to do some fairly well publicized incident at Cornell...
11/01/2011 9:40 PM
@ Anon 6:26pm
The Non-Nuke Incident report for KENTUCY that is on CSL/CSP siprnet sites is from the old blue crew CO. It occured in May and is signed by E.R. Fernandez. (There are a few others signed by him over the years as well.) But it is not signed by Nosse and can't the be the reason he got fired.
SubIconoclast hit the nail on the head...The sub force is riddled with shitty leadership and is well past the point of no return. I see very little incentive for me (and my peers) to accept promotion to O-6 and work in this crappy organization for another 3 years.
-post Command(SSN) Commander
11/02/2011 6:15 AM
Post-Command SSN Commander - here's a reason to stick around - accept the promotion to O-6 and become part of the solution. While I don't agree with you that the submarine force is "riddled with shitty leadership" I will state that IF it is true, it is because good leaders got out. Put your money where your mouth is and help fix what you see as the problems!
11/02/2011 7:24 AM
+1 (and more) to the previous ANON.
SURFOR is FULL of people who "wish they could fix things", same as SUBFOR. My response to that is generally "What's stopping you?"
11/02/2011 4:11 PM
I think it's telling that we all accept that you need to do literally a full career before you have any hope of potentially changing things for the better.
"Don't like it? Just stay in for 20 years and then start to (try) to make it better!"
That is not very motivating...
11/02/2011 8:34 PM
"SubIconoclast hit the nail on the head...The sub force is riddled with shitty leadership and is well past the point of no return. I see very little incentive for me (and my peers) to accept promotion to O-6 and work in this crappy organization for another 3 years.
-post Command(SSN) Commander"
Amen
11/02/2011 10:28 PM
How can anyone make anything any better? It is out of hand out there WRT all the things that are "important". It's incredible how many things can do you in within a second. We have critiques for everything now. Believe it or not, there was a day when we didn't.
If I guy forgot to do his job, he went before the man, paid his due and carried on. We didn't have to sit around for 3-5 hours trying to figure out why his mother never loved him. Don't forget to invite the squadron to the critique as well or youll be critiquing that. It is rediculous and out of control.
If someone screws up, talk to the chief and come up with a disiplinary plan not a "sit in a room with the entire cpo quarters for 3 hours" to find out why his daddy didn't love him. They don't put all the stupid people on one boat so don't think for a second that the errors people make are attributed to a "training issue" or "lack of supervision".
Until Admirals, CO's, XO's and COB's pull there head out of the "kinder, gentler" Navy's ass we will continue to waist time, money and resources to figure out why YN3 Sailor drank 3 energy drinks. Good luck to everyone who continues to fight the stupidity. You will eventually be assimilated or you will not be promoted. Garunteed. I would be interested to hear the dumbest thing you sat in a critique for. Mine: Energy Drinks and why the CPO's didn't count how many guys were drinking them.
11/02/2011 10:45 PM
The last two boats I was on we easily changed the draft with the energy drink load out prior to mission. EVERYONE had at least some of them onboard or had access by a group purchase such as the wardroom, chief's quarters, watch station, division, etc... After a month or so of 12 on 12 off and all the BS that ends up eating into the 12 off, your fried and the extra carbs and sugars in REDBULLs, MONSTER, 5 hours and others kept you going the last couple of weeks. It was across all paygrades and on both ends of the boats.
11/03/2011 7:53 AM
"SubIconoclast hit the nail on the head...The sub force is riddled with shitty leadership and is well past the point of no return. I see very little incentive for me (and my peers) to accept promotion to O-6 and work in this crappy organization for another 3 years.
-post Command(SSN) Commander
Please, by all means - get out! You sound like part of the shitty leadership!
11/03/2011 3:10 PM
Back to the topic...
I heard the KY lost a comms buoy earlier in the same patrol. Almost getting the boat T-boned was the last straw.
11/03/2011 9:09 PM
First. Joe Nosse is a hell of a guy who worked hard to be a part of the solution.
Second, the CPA was more of a straw that broke the camel's back than anything. Essentially, the ship had a poor track record and couldn't fix its problems.
In the Navy, we hold the CO accountable for that. We know that there are many causes for problems but the buck stops at the CO's stateroom. It is a harsh reality, but the last bastion of the tough as nails Navy that wins wars. We all comment about the crap that we have to deal with today with all of the feel good garbage, but here we have an old school, "hold the guy accountable" policy and people complain.
The fact is, they did not recover from a bunch of deficiencies. Poor planning and a lack of foresight led to this CPA and CAPT Nosse wasn't able to turn it around in enough time. I wish he could have. I would go to war with him, he is a good man.
11/09/2011 9:18 PM
it is sad he was fired, mostly due to the Chiefs.
11/10/2011 10:51 AM
Hey, nike free cheap, back that up with something. Do you have anything or do you just toss out grenades like that to get a rise out of people? Please tell us why it was the "Chiefs" that cost Joe his job. We are all waiting to hear.
11/11/2011 2:19 PM
" Essentially, the ship had a poor track record and couldn't fix its problems."
How aren't the CHIEF's at least partially responsible for this?
Way too many Chiefs just putting in time these days, keeping their heads down, knowing that it's (unfortunately) too hard to fire them.
Way too easy to hold the CO "Accountable" without backing him up with the tools to Command.
11/12/2011 5:04 PM
I don't know if this was the cause, but there are a lot of shit ass chiefs out there, that only care about playing poker, drinking coffee, entering the "time machine" and ensuring they stand DOOW no more than twice a week.
However, I will give the Chiefs this: The Navy increasingly emasculates E-6 and above by delegating their responsibility to the JO's. I think this is part of the cause of some chiefs being lazy asses, because they're only sort of responsible for their own divisions.
11/12/2011 11:35 PM
I'm an old Bubblehead from the 60's and seventies. I was just surfin' and ran across this blog, an I've got to say, from the crap I see on this board, when the Chinese decide to do their stuff in the not too distant future, knowing that you guys are the quality of sailor running the boats out there pretty much tells me to go ahead and kiss my ass good bye. Of course, I saw this situation starting to sprout in the 80's when my son took my place on the boats. That's why he didn't stay. Good luck boys, sounds like you're going to need it.
Retired and gone.
11/15/2011 3:29 PM
Deleted a spamment.
11/22/2011 9:28 PM
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