Keeping the blogosphere posted on the goings on of the world of submarines since late 2004... and mocking and belittling general foolishness wherever it may be found. Idaho's first and foremost submarine blog. (If you don't like something on this blog, please E-mail me; don't call me at home.)

Tuesday, April 22, 2008

Scary Skimmer INSURV News

Navy Times reports that two surface ships, USS Chosin (CG 65) and USS Stout (DDG 55), failed INSURV inspections last month. Excerpts from the article, which includes copies of the message reports, include:
But numerous officers familiar with the InSurv reports are concerned that myriad causes are resulting in such poor material inspections.
“Where was the chain of command? Why did the parent squadron not know of the terrible material condition?” van Tol asked. The ship’s command, he said, “has a lot to answer for, either in terms of not finding and fixing the problems, or at least advising his seniors of the problems.”
The ship’s enlisted leaders also are partly responsible, van Tol said.
“One could also ask where the chief’s mess was in all this, since they are the technical experts as well as the senior enlisted leaders onboard.”
The article says that money isn't an issue, and that the ACOS in charge of skimmer maintenance in San Diego says, "We are 100 percent funded to our requirement for maintenance", I'm wondering if that's really the case. People frequently rag on Jimmy Carter because of reports that a Navy ship couldn't get underway during his Presidency; will we be doing the same thing in a few years thinking back on the Bush Presidency?

29 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Like the saying goes "you get what you inspect not what you expect".

Sounds like some rough times ahead for those and other Sailors!

4/22/2008 6:48 AM

 
Blogger Free The Nucs said...

It's passive, daily resistance - the same thing slaves used to do. If they really wanted to get more bang for their maintenance buck they'd offer time off your sentence (er, "enlistment") instead of NAMs as an incentive. Who wouldn't work harder if they thought it could get them out sooner?

4/22/2008 7:03 AM

 
Anonymous Tbone said...

To FTN,

Please get a new song...your same old tune is tiresome.

Tbone

4/22/2008 7:56 AM

 
Anonymous Tbone said...

Joel,

Galrahn and CDR Salamander have excellent detailed posts on both of these ships. Galrahn has the Chosin and CDR has the Stout.

Tbone

4/22/2008 8:02 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Free the Nucs:

Whine, Whine, Whine.
It must really suck to be you. You got so screwed over by the Navy and Submarines in general. Poor you! I have to agree with TBone, Your same old tune is tiresome.

I have a sneaky suspicion that the people who you worked for would say that you were the largest headache they had and if you spent as much time working as you did bitching, you would have been an outstanding shipmate.

I didn’t care how long a sailor stayed in. The Navy and submarines weren’t for everybody but you volunteered. If you hated it that much you should have had the balls to walk away and get out of everybody’s hair.

4/22/2008 9:57 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Give it a rest, you snivelling lifers. The website is called "The Stupid Shall Be Punished". Sometimes the aforementioned "stupids" are you lifers and sometimes the punishment is listening to people gripe after you screw them over. Be glad it's not worse.

4/22/2008 11:27 AM

 
Anonymous Lifer and proud of it said...

FTN:

I'm here to reminisce on the good times, not focus on the occasional bone jobs. Was there ever a better time in your life than when you were a submariner? Was there ever anything to compare with going to sea on a submarine? The Navy took you in when you couldn't get a job anywhere else and made something out of your life. You (and all the one-tour-and-out folks like you) need to stop and think where you'd be without Uncle Sam in your life.

4/22/2008 11:32 AM

 
Blogger Free The Nucs said...

All this over little ol' me?

Actually, I'll let you in on a secret: I'm half hoping that some of the people who make such bad decisions managing us actually read this, and maybe get a sense of what they're doing wrong. Lord knows there's no OFFICIAL way for me to provide any sort of meaningful feedback to them.

4/22/2008 11:39 AM

 
Anonymous dirtyblueshirt said...

As repetitive as FTN's comments are (half my division is made up of guys like that, it's enough to make me want to eat a bullet. Or feed them to someone) he may have a point.

After you follow the ownership and pride threads back you get one of two possible outcomes: Either the chain of command never instilled a sense of ownership of the ship (trying to be the buddy-chief or the cool DivO), or the chain of command crushed the sense of ownership on the part of the crew (FTN's scenario).

And FTN, if you really want to help improve the program why don't you come up with some suggestions? This constant complaining does not help anything

4/22/2008 2:58 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And FTN, if you really want to help improve the program why don't you come up with some suggestions?

If they really wanted to get more bang for their maintenance buck they'd offer time off your sentence (er, "enlistment") instead of NAMs as an incentive. Who wouldn't work harder if they thought it could get them out sooner?

Um, I din't go to Anapolis, but wasn't that a suggestion?

4/22/2008 4:01 PM

 
Blogger a_former_elt_2jv said...

Gotta agree with the last poster.

I had a horrible time in the Navy. Really, they need to take the submarine force and blue/gold crew it. Too many people are being worked too hard for a few O-gangers to get a leg up on a job they probably don't want either. Think Jack Welsh at GE circa 1995.

Maybe they need a better nuke program that will translate to more money immediately on the outside. Think NRC RO license. If you gave all EWS qualified individuals an NRC RO license on the way out, it would help all those 10-yr nukes get out and translate to a better job.

Come to think of it, what if you empowered ORSE/NRRO's with NRC authority? Send them to Shippingport for inspections (or the modern Quad Cities/San Onofre/Surry/South Texas Project) in addition to the boats/carriers-- heck, bring out NRC resident inspectors to the boats, since it would give them a firmer base of knowledge. Not only would it return the Navy to a higher standard (with independent public audit authority) but it would intergrate Navy Nukes higher into commercial power plants sooner. I mean seriously, who really thinks that a first term nuke is Under-qualfied to be an Aux Operator?

4/22/2008 9:53 PM

 
Blogger Roy said...

"The Navy took you in when you couldn't get a job anywhere else and made something out of your life. You (and all the one-tour-and-out folks like you) need to stop and think where you'd be without Uncle Sam in your life."

Deep breaths... Calm.... Not working...

Okay, here goes...

/rant mode = on

And just where in effin hell did *that* come from. Actually - never mind - I know precisely where it came from - right out of the butt of some "lifer" who seems to think that anyone who didn't find the Navy life to be the pinnacle of existence to be somehow "below" them.

Took us when we couldn't get a job anywhere else, indeed. I believe, Lifer and Proud, that that's called "projection". Just because *you* joined the Navy because of your own shortcomings and inability to get a job, doesn't mean everyone else did.

I served one extended term in the USN - 1972-79. And I got out for many reasons, not the least of which is that I decided the Navy life simply didn't suit me. However, I had a decent paying job when I joined up, and I have had decent jobs since. I have *never* been unemployed in my entire life. So stick it in your ear, Lifer and Proud. With your attitude, I am 100% certain that *you* are the direct cause of more than one good sailor's decision to not re-enlist.

To everyone else - especially to Joel, our host - please don't misunderstand me. I did not *hate* the Navy. And I do not hate career military - indeed, no one has more respect than I do for those that serve. But my respect goes equally to those that serve a single term and those that serve a lifetime career.

But the point is - I too served. I fulfilled my entire military obligation plus one year. And I followed the lawful orders of my superiors all the way to my EAOS. And *jobs* didn't have a damn thing to do with any of it.

And if I want to bitch about things that happened while I was in, or things that are happening now - by G_d, I'll bitch. And, on here, the only one who has a say about it is Joel. Anyone else who doesn't like that can kiss my wide load.

And for the record: I am *not* the poster calling himself "Free the Nukes". I am STS1(SS) Roy S. Greenwell. And this is my first post on this thread.

4/22/2008 10:55 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You fogot to turn Rant Mode off. ;)

4/23/2008 3:59 AM

 
Blogger Roy said...

...not quite done.

This is a hot button issue for me.
(Can't you tell?)

Consider this: Someone who serves one or two terms, and then decides to get out, has weighed their options and decided that their best choice is to enter the civilian economy rather than continue in the military. Those that choose to remain for a career have chosen the opposite. Now, which one would you speculate had the higher instance of "couldn't get a job anywhere else"?

Of course, the proper thing is to not speculate at all. The reasons people go into and get out of the military are as varied as the individuals involved.

Okay - /rant mode = off

I'll go away for now - I have to go do some productive work for my employer of 23 years.

4/23/2008 7:13 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with everyone here. There are arguments to the left, right and middle.
Face it, the military is not for everyone and some who “volunteered” for what ever reason had to put up with great people and some real jerks.
I never termed myself as a lifer even though I stayed in for twenty. I had a career. I only enlisted for four years and then stuck around. There were people who had no business being in the Navy or on Submarines. However, you had to play the hand you were dealt. I had a great career and, being an Aganger, had to deal with some of the foulest, grossest, dirtiest, and greatest men that ever came across the brow. We had first enlisters that hated where they were and got out as soon as they could. We had one on the Chicago. He HATED it and counted down the days on the calendar till he was getting out. The challenge for those in charge was to channel that pissed off mind set to be productive. I did it by letting him be in charge of himself and the jobs I gave him. There was a little more to it than that but he was a damn fine knuckle dragger and did a great job until he got out.
The Navy only asks you to do three things. 1. Come to work/be on time. 2. Do your job when you get there. 3. Adhere to the grooming standards. As you got more senior, Do your job got broader but that is to be expected.
I spent 20 years defending the rights of every American Citizen and if that citizen wants to bitch, go for it. However, like my dislike for the Dixie Chicks, I have the right not to buy their music or listen to those who are bitching.
FTN- go right ahead and speak your mind. If I don’t like it, I’ll pass up your posts. However, I do understand where the anger comes from and I hope I was never part of it.
a_former_elt_2jv – Good ideas all around.
Roy – Rant away.
Joel – Great BLOG
And Thank you ALL for your service to our country.

That Damn Good Looking Aganger From Iowa.

4/23/2008 8:34 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Question: If FTN hated the Navy BS so much then why does he continue to troll a Navy blog?

BTW FTN for your comments to be constructive they would have to be feasible..."early out for AA performance" (ROFLMAO)!

I have to hand it to you though because your comments do get people on the governor really fast! ;)

4/23/2008 10:36 AM

 
Anonymous Just another nuke said...

Question: If FTN hated the Navy BS so much then why does he continue to troll a Navy blog?

Probably the same reason *I* do:

Actually, I'll let you in on a secret: I'm half hoping that some of the people who make such bad decisions managing us actually read this, and maybe get a sense of what they're doing wrong. Lord knows there's no OFFICIAL way for me to provide any sort of meaningful feedback to them.

4/23/2008 10:51 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

FTN,

Is it just my imagination or are others also getting tired of your one dimensional negative commentary? Your input is neither cute nor quick-witted.

I would take your comments much more seriously if you would at least offer something constructive in what you say. So far you have not.

There is much happiness in life if one allows it for themselves. It's sad that your joy seems to come from being angry. I hope you can someday get past the anger. It's called growing up.

Birdie

4/23/2008 12:39 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This article is excellent. Why? Because it goes to show how soldiers keep up on ships' errors for the navy so that there wouldn't be any mistake of the count of the ships. Then maybe before putting them out on sea, the commandors would want to think ahead of time.It seems as if the commandors. This could cost lives!

4/23/2008 1:24 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the Anonymous at 4/23/2008 1:24 PM:

This article is excellent. Why? Because it goes to show how soldiers keep up on ships' errors for the navy so that there wouldn't be any mistake of the count of the ships. Then maybe before putting them out on sea, the commandors would want to think ahead of time.It seems as if the commandors. This could cost lives!

What drugs are you on? You are not making a bit of sense.

4/23/2008 1:31 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nothing new in these comments. I heard similar gripes during the 60's and 70's on smoke boats. Lot of guys whining then were in the Navy for four years to avoid the draft and going to Viet Nam. I did 20 years in Torpedo Room and last tour as COB on smoke boat. Back then I did a lot of griping over impact of Z-Grams on smoke boats with small crews (65 enlisted 8 Chiefs, 8 officers) At some point you just got to get over it and move on. Our gallows humor then was, "no money, no pussy, no pass, no friends, and damn few relatives; nobody likes us and most hate us and we gotta pick up the slack for broke down Nuc Boats." I made the decision to retire on twenty because I had done everything I ever wanted to do on submarines, and all I had to look forward to was going to a Nuc Boat. I stayed for 20 because I enjoyed what I was doing and where we were going.

I'm still sailing as a civilian mariner on MSC ammo ship that is 36 years old. If you think it was bad in your day, you otta see what the big boss in WesPac imposes on sailors there. Even trying to impose buddy rule and liberty plan on CivMars. Be happy your not dealing with that stuff. Fun "stuff" doesn't exist in the Nav any more.

Keep a zero bubble.......

DBFTMC(SS)USNRET

4/23/2008 4:11 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

While giving an NRC RO license would be a good idea, it won't work. The NRC license is plant specific...i.e. it would be valid on D1G ONLY, or S6W ONLY. That's just the nature of the NRC beast.

While I suppose it could work, it would require the U S Navy to open up data on its power plants, which it clearly doesn't want to do.

The other problem is that the Reactor Operator at a civilian plant has a lot more under his (or her) thumb than just a shim switch...the Main Control board where I am is about 75 feet from end to end and that RO controls EVERYTHING....condensate, feed, heaters, cooling water systems.....the level of knowledge required is way above what an EWS has....take all your engineroom watchstanders, add the RO and the EWS, throw in a pinch of RC division maintenace, add in a lot of requirements the Navy doesn't even think about, and you MIGHT be able to pass the NRC license exam.

4/23/2008 9:21 PM

 
Blogger a_former_elt_2jv said...

While giving an NRC RO license would be a good idea, it won't work. The NRC license is plant specific...i.e. it would be valid on D1G ONLY, or S6W ONLY. That's just the nature of the NRC beast.

While I suppose it could work, it would require the U S Navy to open up data on its power plants, which it clearly doesn't want to do.

The other problem is that the Reactor Operator at a civilian plant has a lot more under his (or her) thumb than just a shim switch...the Main Control board where I am is about 75 feet from end to end and that RO controls EVERYTHING....condensate, feed, heaters, cooling water systems.....the level of knowledge required is way above what an EWS has....take all your engineroom watchstanders, add the RO and the EWS, throw in a pinch of RC division maintenace, add in a lot of requirements the Navy doesn't even think about, and you MIGHT be able to pass the NRC license exam.


What about an PEWS school, much like PNEO. Take some enlisted nukes (1st termers even), send them to school for 6 more months, and get them the equivalent license, even if it's for S9G, D1G, D2W, A4W, or A1B. At the least, it gets nukes "qualified" for RO (and not SRO) at prototypes (as civilians), and gets them on track for STE.

That way, when an enlisted nuke gets out, the job market changes to put the EWS folks into a more senior job at the plant. More incentive (an eventual incentive), more retention, better NRRO/NRC Inspectors, better plants all around.

4/24/2008 8:11 AM

 
Blogger a_former_elt_2jv said...

Oh, and it leaves the BWRs stricly to the normal union route of promotion.

FYI. I'm thinking that in the world of NNPP, the submarine M-Div types would probably have a leg up. They understand the engineroom fully, and with NPS, have a good idea about what it means to move a rod, adjust condensate pressure, operate superheaters, change lube oil parameters, and generally keep the machine moving. In addition to being good maintenance scheduling folks too (think small valve maintenance), they probably make good "P-3 Schedulers" too.

Just some thoughts (not that anyone from the NRC/DOE/NNSA/NAVSEA will ever read this, much less care)....

4/24/2008 8:38 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To former elt...

You are wrong about NAVSEA reading this blog. There are currently over 20 blogs that are monitored daily for content by 08. Even more on the non-nuke side of the house. NAVSEA is more tech savy than you would guess... likewise Myspace, Facebook, Twitter, and others are searched...

4/24/2008 10:18 AM

 
Blogger a_former_elt_2jv said...

What other blogs are monitored? TMZ.com? PerezHilton.com? (Just fooling around).

That's good. I wonder what impact they will ever have. Especially since this is the 26th comment of the 5th article down. Do you scroll through all the comments here regularly? I don't....

I suppose it's good they do that. Maybe, the best way for NAVSEA/NR to get better feedback is to invite random individuals back (invitation, not subpoena) to speak with them several years after they get out. That give the former nukes time to reflect, and think of changes. An exit interview after school/job/life changes-- one that can help improve not only NR, but with the general transition of nukes, especially those who continue in engineering, nuclear power, health physics, etc.

More change (i.e. $0.02) from my mind...

4/24/2008 12:44 PM

 
Anonymous Dave said...

ELT 2JV... So help me God, I will power growl the crap out of the lab if you don't answer up... F'in ELT's... ;)

There is an INPO document titled ACAD 00-003 that delineates equivalence from prior experience. INPO recognizes 2 years EOOW, EWS, or RO experience as being sufficient to enroll in a licensing program (for those without a college degree). Whether or not a utility accepts INPO's recommendation is up to them. But as said earlier, the license is only good at your current facility. If you leave to go to another, the license will lapse and you'll have to start over. Neither the utility or INPO cares if you qualified on S8G, A4W, S1C, etc. To the commercial industry, it is considered an unlike plant. As in a BWR is unlike a PWR, therefor you must start over and go back to commercial "Power School".

Muddy it up any?

4/24/2008 4:05 PM

 
Anonymous gomerb said...

Dave,

My head is swimmin' in all the commercial nuke jargon. Makes me glad I traded my shim switch for the big bucks career in a high school classroom. I am beginning to see why the French have a mandated one design power plant system. It allows mobility of operators and they can give up on trying to make lessons learned at one plant applicable to others. (Insert your own French giving up joke here.)

As for the "You lifers suck!" "You one hitch wonders are wussies!" debate, please don't tell folks to stop it. MY reason for for coming to this blog (besides Joel's rapier wit)is to reminisce. As this discussion hasn't changed since 1981 far as I can tell, all I'm missing now is the sweet smell diesel fuel (and Mike and Leo's cooking).

4/28/2008 12:43 PM

 
Blogger jayjay said...

Actually FTN brings up some good points, that unfortunately are overlooked by people who get too emotionally attached to the whole honor and loyalty thing. I got out after making board for chief in 7 years because I was flustered with the inability to get rid of incompetent people, from E1 to O10, The navy has many problems that can not be addressed because too many people are afraid to stand up for what it right. Those who do are labeled as bad sailors. You may feel that the navy is great for you, and if you are a lifer, I am glad because it doesn't make much sense staying somewhere you hate. But I do not believe that saying all is well and that the navy is mostly perfect, helps anyone. I feel that there is too much arrogance amongst those in charge. This elitist attitude is damaging to the navy as a whole. I very successfully lead my division and my watch team, because of mutual respect. People work harder and better when there is incentive to do well. Fear will only motivate people enough to keep from being hassled. Just the thoughts of an 8 year submarine nuke, who has no regrets about his 8 years but is exuberant to be entering is 4th year of freedom. Peace everyone.

6/11/2008 2:46 PM

 

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