News From Around The 'Net
Here are some news items of interest that have been floating around this week:
1) Female "Captain Bligh" relieved for cause: Captain Holly Graf, former CO of USS Cowpens (CG 63), was relieved for cause for being an insufferable martinet back in January. There are some interesting comments over in this post at the USNI Blog from some people who have worked with her. The question arises: Would a male CO have been kept around so long? (Having worked for such a CO, "He Who Must Not Be Named", back in the early 90s on USS Topeka (SSN 754), I can say that such Skippers were kept around back in the day. As I read the article about the things that Captain Graf did, all I could think was "I've seen worse"...). [Bellringer 1110 05 March: Here's a link to a blog post that has the IG report.]
2) IDF Soldier in Facebook Fiasco: A soldier for the IDF posts on his Facebook account about a mission his unit is about to do, causing the mission to be canx'd and resulting in a court-martial for him. Just a reminder for those of us engaged in classified operations...
3) "9/11 Truther" attempts to attack the Pentagon: It looks like it's not just unhinged right-wingers who can get violent when their fantasies about how the world works start to consume their lives...
4) Finally, a nice picture. Here's a shot of two of our newest warships at sea.
Have a great weekend!Update 1355 06 Mar: I thought there was something wrong with the caption on the Navy picture saying it was of "USS" New Mexico, since I didn't remember the commissioning, but I figured I was just getting old. Then, today, a Facebook posting by SUBGRU 2 discussing the boat's upcoming commissioning ceremony on March 27th jogged my memory, so I corrected the sub's prefix above.
posted by Bubblehead at 10:43 AM
125 Comments:
IG report on Graf...
http://admiraltymaritimelaw.blogspot.com/2010/03/navy-inspector-generals-report-on-holly.html
3/05/2010 11:04 AM
Thanks! I incorporated the link into my main post.
3/05/2010 11:10 AM
If she'd been a man she wouldn't have been relieved until someone discovered that her boat wasn't checking its water chemistry.
3/05/2010 11:31 AM
+1 @1131
And I hope Portland gets to smoke pole in hell for what he has done.
3/05/2010 12:18 PM
Joel--I'm still waiting for one of those "right-wing veteran susceptible to terrorist recruiting" that Secy. Napolitano wrote about to cause hate and discontent somewhere. Seems so far it's been pretty much the wackjob BDS-types that have been doing the shoot-'em-ups.
And OPSEC? Almost seems like it's become a thing of the past. What do they do when boats go out on ops these days? Tell them, "Now don't say anything, or we might get upset!"
3/05/2010 12:25 PM
Navy gets the coolest toys! I think I'll join!
3/05/2010 12:55 PM
So what some of the skippers are idiots! Gotta have a model to deviate from!
3/05/2010 12:57 PM
Anyone here serve under CAPT Ratliff? I was on a Bangor SSBN while he had one of the OHIO crews. Whenever I thought life was bad on my boat, I just thought about the stories I heard about how he treated his guys. Maybe this makes me a bad person, but it made me feel better every time!
3/05/2010 1:35 PM
I also heard the horror stories about the Ohio - Nukes in the OCAB until past 2300 "studying RPMS", getting a key to the OCAB so his crew could come in on weekends when the building was normally locked. It just made me that much happier I was not on his boat.
3/05/2010 1:52 PM
Wasn't it his crew that ended up with a CPA of not much more then verticle seperation with a not so friendly submarine. I can't remember which crew did it. I just remember they threw TTF under the bus when they got back and said they were not adequately trained. Thus begining the 48 hour long SSGN TTF scenarios.
3/05/2010 1:55 PM
A female CO on the USS COWPENS....
Are you serious:
"COWPENS Arriving"
If she is a screamer (at work) does that make her a mad COW?
Too funny! Too bad they aren't stationed in Bremerton, then it would really fit the Bremalo breed of woman grown there.
Can't wait for the first woman CO on the USS GEORGE H. W. BUSH:
"BUSH Arriving"
3/05/2010 2:47 PM
To the Anons at 1335 3/5 & at 1355. I worked in the trainers at TTF when the Ohio started their training. They SUCKED!!! Listening to Ratliff screaming at people and putting them down afterwards was a daily occurrence. Of course reports were made to squadron and group. They came, they watched, Ratliff toned it down, and he remained. Ratliff was a screamer and they couldn’t shot to save their life! Yes they threw TTF under the bus! They went through a week or two of training and they still sucked afterwards. We documented the training very well at TTF, they had no excuse afterwards!
STSCS(SS/SW) USN RET
3/05/2010 3:43 PM
You guys shouldn't be talking about one of the future sub force flags that way...
3/05/2010 3:45 PM
My roommate was on his first boat and I couldn't believe the stories. What braniacs put him in command again? And why didn't anyone have the balls to fire him? Shame on you, squadrons!
3/05/2010 4:05 PM
"If she is a screamer (at work) does that make her a mad COW?"
Funny you should mention that. It was indeed one of the (many) nicknames given to her. The obvious one: "Holly A. Graf" = HAG, AKA "Sea Hag". Heard stories about a FLA C.O. circa late 90's...any corroboration?
3/05/2010 4:38 PM
The same PC mentality that allowed Maj. Yaba Dada Doo complete med school on the DOD’s dime and promote him to Maj. so he could repay America with his violence in Texas allowed this imbecile women to get promoted and selected to command at sea. She did not just become ignorant and incompetent, that started way before but people kept gun decking her Fitreps and rubber stamping her on up. She is a disgrace to the Navy and anyone who has served and she should be cleaning port a potties but the PC crowd will probably select her for flag rank. When a man gets promoted past his potential it is the Peter Principle but when women get promoted way past their ability is it called diversity and progress? The gene pool for promotion must be getting pretty lean and hard up to promote this woman to command anything larger than a trash barge. The Goats are not like they used to be. She posted a Master Chief like a boot camp seaman, WTF. The STUPID shall be punished but she will probably get some cushy billet. Maybe she can babysit the diaper wearing ex-astronaut, another stellar rocket scientist.
3/05/2010 5:07 PM
Ok, is it just me or WTF on the Master Chief that CAPT Graf apparently put into a "time out." So, I might only be a Chief but I would have excused myself to the goat locker or to the brig, the choice being up to the CO of course. Subsequent to that I would imagine a flag level courts martial would have been on the menu for the future...
My point being that people seemed to have put up with Graf's nonsense for fair too long. For shame,for shame on the Navy for this...
Now, to be fair, this really isn't a gender thing...far too many men have had similar reigns of terror and it seems that the Navy is reluctant to sh*t can the bad leaders.
Perhaps a little more oversight is needed--political officers anyone (pun intended).
ETC(SS), ret
3/05/2010 5:11 PM
"She posted a Master Chief like a boot camp seaman, WTF."
Can't decide which is worse...a CO who puts her CMC in "Time Out", or a CMC that just sits there and takes it.
3/05/2010 5:27 PM
This tale is giving you a tiny insight into the skimmer navy...
3/05/2010 6:01 PM
long sigh...I was a rider in the late 90's on Ross, Peterson and the "Big Stick." They all had females on them...and generally they seemed competent enough.
The only thing that threw me for a loop was skipping down to the JO's/Chiefs head (on the TR) from berthing along side the entirely too attractive young female LT's who insisted on wearing pink bunny slippers with their bathrobes. OMG, that took some getting used to.
Obviously the machine that is the Navy screwed up on letting Graf through. I am still pondering the idea of a Master Chief in a time out...for god's sake, have some self respect! Take those anchors away from that guy!!!
ETC(SS), ret
3/05/2010 6:14 PM
Whoa, do we know it was the CMC, or could it have been any master chief on board? (Not that it makes a lot of difference, but it does make some difference. Even if it was another master chief on board, the CMC would have/should have been the next guy involved.) No master chief deserves to be treated that way by his or her CO. But then neither did her department heads who were apparently subjected to similar, if not worse, behavior.
The CMC of COWPENS just reported there in the summer of '09. If it was the new guy who was braced up, then I'd cut him some slack. New COB's and CMC's sometimes need time to get their sealegs, so to speak. A more seasoned CMC or master chief should not have stood for it. The tactic, IMHO, is to quietly invite the skipper to accompany you to her stateroom where you can have either a civil conversation or a knock-down, drag-out, which ever the skipper prefers, most likely. But that kind of treatment in front of the crew is completely off-the-hook and detrimental to the good order and discipline of the crew, which is paramount.
Skimmer CMC's and submarine COB's all serve at the pleasure of their CO's but that doesn't excuse abusive treatment by them. CMC/COB's all know they can and should take their greivances to their Squadron, Group and/or Force Master Chiefs, too. Those guys all work for the skippers' bosses, and they're all hand-picked by them. Fixing this sort of problem is one of the reasons those higher echelon CMC jobs exist. It could have been a contributing factor in initiating the IG. Who knows?
In any case, a screaming CO is a nightmare scenario for any COB/CMC, especially a new one. They stand squarely in the space between the Captain and the crew. It takes tact, skill and gravitas to command that space with aplomb. These kind of scenarios are discussed at COB boards. Those boards tend to select guys better prepared for the kind of pressure the COWPENS CMC no doubt encountered.
3/05/2010 6:39 PM
ret.cob: "submarine COB's all serve at the pleasure of their CO's"
Not sure you meant this. In my time in the boats I can't recall a COB being relieved except at end of tour. IMHO, the CO can choose a new COB when the old one is leaving, but it would take something pretty serious for a CO to fire a COB and as I say, I've not seen it happen. (Me, I'd rather micturate on an electric fence [like our hero below] than sack a COB.)
3/05/2010 7:08 PM
Hell, I got out as an E-6 at 6, but I wouldn't have taken that shit as an E-5. WTF?
3/05/2010 7:18 PM
Duck, your point is well taken. Poor performing COB's tend to just disappear rather than fade away. But COB and CMC's can be, and, from time to time, are, dismissed for cause. Our selection process has tended to produce COB's who perform well enough to avoid embarrassing "time outs," whatever the fuck those are, and is the reason you haven't had to do the whole "fence" thingy. But you are right, the firing process is a bit more formal than simply "serving at the pleasure of..."
3/05/2010 7:27 PM
Those core values of Honor, Courage and Commitment are really shining in neon with this fine specimen of officer material. Maybe she should be on recruiting posters to attract a higher quality of leader? Leadership by example, mentor, model leader, hummm, where does she fit in the big picture scheme of things? Thankfully there are a lot of decent high quality folks still serving and douche bags like this one get flushed when the pain threshold and bad PR pegs redline.
3/05/2010 7:32 PM
It looks like Capt Bligh might be allowed to transfer to her next assignment in the Pentagon with smooth sailing. I wonder if her ring-knocker pals or her flag officer sister pulled some strings for her to keep rolling on down the line with only a speed bump?
3/05/2010 7:52 PM
While I think that it has lessened over the years, the submarine force has had, and continues to have these issues as well. Some are taken care of (Florida in the mid-90s), others continue to get away with it. I would like to think that it will eventually catch up to them, but that is not always the case.
3/05/2010 7:55 PM
How many submarine COs have left under less than stellar conditions and not only was CDR. the end of the trail but their futures were not another Navy assignment? The LA seemed to have some very bad things happen at different times. This one CO had driven the command into the ground. The Goat Locker was being manned by CSS because so many Chiefs were already gone. There were maybe only 6 Chiefs onboard that were not temps from CSS. The Commodore came down to the boat one morning, all hands quarters on the pier, the Commodore was there, some CDR that no one had ever seen and the Commodore fired the CO on the spot and the new CO took command right there, no ceremony or pomp. The Commodore just flushed that CO in front of the crew and he had really destroyed that crew so I guess the reality of seeing his fate was a necessary thing.
3/05/2010 8:02 PM
Very few COB's are formally DFC'd. It would probably be better if more (who deserved it) were, but I don't see this likely to change. There isn't a big percentage who get to that position w/o being pretty capable, but it happens.
I can think of a few off the top of my head who were formally DFC'd (several were written about here).
Instead, they are usually 'soft-landed'. A non-performance reason (medical issue, ugly divorce or custody case, etc.) is cited or an opportunity is created which means an early roll to shore duty and the substandard COB is xferred off w/o ignominy. Very few of the crew are generally 'in-the-loop' as to the real nature of the transfer.
The same holds true for regular Chiefs but reluctance to formally DFC is not as strong as it is with a serving COB.
Sadly, because there is no paper trail without a DFC (and with good reason you have to justify a DFC) some of those who are soft-landed end up serving again.
Which leads us to our twice-served CO...CAPT H.A.G.
- Good riddance to the fleet's garbage but sad to see she's still headed to the Pentagon. After going to NJP if she were enlistred she'd no longer qualify for WASH D.C. area duty (which falls under Shore Special Programs) IAW the MILPERSMAN. Her ISIC or relieving CO would have sent off a Special Programs Screening Deficiency Report (SPSDR).
Maybe someone ought to tell PERS-4...
3/05/2010 8:23 PM
To anon @1545:
You are joking, right? Please tell me that Chris Ratliff isn't in line for a star!
3/05/2010 8:33 PM
A COB on a boat is more than likely not getting flushed without the ISIC and Group CMC’s input and the Group CMC has the ability to turn that situation around if the situation warrants it.
Maybe Captain HAG was voted by the ring knockers as most likely to achieve command, get shit canned and still cruise down the pond to another assignment? I wonder if she got an EOT award and a nice brass laser engraved command plaque? A travesty and offense to the Core Values and Proud Traditions of the Navy. Sailors deserve better leaders than this.
3/05/2010 8:46 PM
For those who have never heard this little speech it is a very good reality check about why the people of America maintain a combat ready force in the first place. It sort of puts all the silly BS that we have to endure and tolerate into a different perspective.
The setting is China in the 1920s and a fictional gunboat, the USS San Pablo.
Lt. Collins' Flag Day Speech...from Sand Pebbles fame
Today we begin cruising to show the flag on Tungting Lake and the Hunan Rivers. I want all honors rendered smartly.
At home in America, when today reaches them it will be Flag Day. For us who wear the uniform every day is Flag Day.
It is said that there will be no more wars. We must pretend to believe that. But when war comes, it is we who will take the first shock, and buy time with our lives. It is we who keep the Faith...
We serve the Flag. The trade we all follow is the give and take of death. It is for that purpose that the people of America maintain us. And anyone of us who believes he has a job like any other, for which he draws a money wage, is a thief of the food he eats, and a trespasser in the bunk in which he lies down to sleep.
3/05/2010 8:54 PM
One of my favorite naval-themed books and movies ever!
3/06/2010 12:47 AM
Sh!tty COB, Soft landed, Transferred early to get rid of him... Sounds like "The Anal One" from the MSP in 2005.
3/06/2010 1:45 AM
Head over to Salamander's place and you'll find out that CAPT HAGs plans to settle into a nice office at the Pentagon went south. She's been given a twilight job at a weapons lab near DC where she can be kept under a close eye until she retires.
Byron
3/06/2010 5:00 AM
To those thinking Captain Graf is being handed some kind of good-deal by being allowed to proceed to her next duty assignment, here's what I wrote in another blog . Topic was COs fired for friggin' in the riggin', but same facts apply. The blog operator - Tom Ricks, whom I've know over the years - argued that the Navy was wasting talent and experience in kicking out of the Navy COs who'd gotten canned.
"To your excellent point on potentially recycling the miscreants, two comments. One is that in almost every case, it is the individual committing the offense who chooses to leave service. His (rarely hers, though sex is not the only career-ender around, as another CO -- female -- recently learned) decision to retire or resign may reflect a realistic evaluation of his career future and a desire to avoid continued embarrassment in his daily endeavors, but generally it is not forced (though it sometimes may be coerced: 'retire or face more severe charges and a higher court of review')."
3/06/2010 5:03 AM
"H8&Discontent said...
Sh!tty COB, Soft landed, Transferred early to get rid of him... Sounds like "The Anal One" from the MSP in 2005."
I coulda gone the rest of the year without remembering THAT asshat! Sad thing about that case is that he got EXACTLY what he wanted out of the deal: E-9 and nothing else. Oh, and you forgot the one that got outright fired in May '07.
3/06/2010 5:37 AM
So what makes a good COB? How does a good COB do his job? (Think about it: You might influence your next one by what you write next!)
3/06/2010 6:06 AM
ret.cob: my answer...
Loyalty up, loyalty down. And the leadership skills to make those up and down earn that loyalty. And deep smarts about submarining.
3/06/2010 6:22 AM
This comment has been removed by the author.
3/06/2010 6:23 AM
Once, a new CO showed up on the boat which at the time had some macho/high noise issues (I'd been there a few weeks and saw fistfights in the wardroom, etc) to deal with.
XO, who had been trained by the previous guy, was in Control and going nonlinear, when the CO quietly and privately mentioned that perhaps now would be a good time to take a break in his stateroom.
No secrets on a submarine--"XO was given a time out? said the nukes--but the XO learned, and so did the ship. I learned a bit too about how to handle such situations since I'm not the coolest cucumber in the bushel.
The CO? Best one I've ever served under or with, bar none.
Oh, and. I've got a guy working with me who served under Graf. I went to PCO ops with the Shall Not Be Named guy. Both sound unpleasant, but I'd take her over J---uh, the other guy.
3/06/2010 6:29 AM
It strikes me that whenever a CO is detached for cause, the performance of two other sets of people is also brought into question.
One is the COs and reporting seniors who wrote earlier fitreps on the fired skipper (and especially those who saw him or her in XO tour): did they send the right signals or take the easy path of social promotion?
The second set of folks who may have failed in their duties are those who sat on the Command or Major Command Board and approved the assignment of the individual to command. Reading an officer's record in these boards is a trip into fantasyland, but the signals are always there.
In my experience (two of each kind of submarine command board), the problems occur after the easy picks and the easy rejects are behind the board and it's starting to sort through the muddle in the middle. By the end of the board's deliberation it often gets down to finding those amongst a not-stellar lot who are least likely to wreck a submarine so that the detailer's need number gets met. Were it possible to take up the slack through extending command tours rather than picking the runts of the litter, there'd be fewer bad COs. But each board of my experience had a couple hold-your-nose-and-ok-them selects and these are likely the weak sisters who plumber up a command tour.
But the system does mostly work. Look at two famously fucked up COs of an earlier era, Pete Bucher (a served SS XO) in PUEBLO and Marcus Aurelius Arnheiter of the USS VANCE. In each case, these guys were NOT screened for command. But the PUEBLO was unexpectedly placed in service, along with BONNER, several converted LSMs, and some DERs like VANCE, so the system ran out of screened PCOs and had to dip into the failed-to-select pots of both the submarine force and the surface navy.
So, two lessons: one is that the really bad ones, the screamers and weepers etc., get to command because some reporting senior lacked the courage to down them. And the command boards that screen are number-driven and often do not have the quality of candidates available that they would desire. In all 4 boards I participated in, the general comment of the board members at the end was "I wish we had more quality candidates to pick from. Some of these guys worry me."
3/06/2010 7:07 AM
It seems like some people seem to want to minimize Capt. HAGS behavior and piss poor performance by comparing her to their own personal soup sandwich leaders. This is leading to the mindset that denotes, “I have seen worse so who cares?” Well, do two bags of crap smell worse than one? How about a dozen? So if the standard is the lowest common denominator then any bag of crap is fine and there really is no standard. It seems that Adm. Rickover noted something about this. Oh yeah, here it is, a quote on responsibility from Rickover, “Unless the individual truly responsible can be identified when something goes wrong, no one has really been responsible.” Maybe poor Capt Hag was one of the women tied to the urinals during a hazing incident at the ring knockers’ mother ship? Maybe she just can’t stand being a man in a woman’s body. Who knows what motivates her but she is negligent in basic leadership. Lead by example, pride and professionalism, integrity, honor, courage, commitment, tradition and the list of high sounding buzzwords and ideals goes on and on. Except those are supposed to be principles and not just good PR for the Navy’s external image. Some officers seem pretty good at covering each others ass when the crap hits the fan but that is seldom the case farther down the food chain. The fact that ass clowns like her go as far as they do must mean that the herd is really getting thin and the DNA gene pool is getting dried up.
3/06/2010 7:11 AM
Nuke ET, I bet you stayed because the Navy is more than the sum of its personalities and ahead of and behind every assclown there are dozens of superb leaders. That, and you know rotations being what they are, you can wait the bastards out! And the supreme reason for staying is because the Navy needs good Sailors like you to teach young Sailors how to deal with the occasional idiot in charge.
3/06/2010 8:24 AM
ret.cob
You are spot on with that one.
Thankfully the bad apples do not do more damage than they do. But they can really screw up things in a bad way.
Keep on keeping on and take good care of each other.
3/06/2010 8:29 AM
Rubber Ducky,
I think that you alluded to Lloyd Butcher and issues with him professionally. Is this based on the Pueblo blame game or just a general failure of his personal leadership? The Pueblo screw-up seemed to have a lot of contributing players least of all his direct chain of command, the Navy at large and governmental leadership in general.
What are you thoughts on this?
3/06/2010 8:44 AM
IMHO...
Based on the tale as it unfolded and also on conversations with a few folks who knew him, I think the Pete Bucher (correct spelling) story has 5 parts.
1. He was not good enough to screen for diesel command when the competition was low and the opportunity high. Nobody was a shoe-in then, but the odds were very good for those with good XO tours at that time.
2. Opinions vary on his performance at the time of the North Korean attack and in his subsequent captivity. His XO didn't think much of Bucher and published a book saying so. But he did preserver under intense treatment and is also seen as a figure of great courage. I have no opinion on that.
3. PUEBLO's chain of command may not have covered itself with glory at the time of its capture, but there was a lot going on and the national security environment very intense, with many competing imperatives. The question at the time and now: why didn't CincPac at least send in attack aircraft to support one of his ships under attack? Dunno.
4. After his release, Bucher was largely regarded as and treated as an American Hero. He lived out his life quietly.
5. The thing unsaid in his submarine days and after: he may have been a bit of a drunk (based on his XO's book and waterfront intelligence). But many in the submarine command path were then, as during WW-II and before.
True story: Rickover once asked me if I knew why he'd left submarines after his XO tour. Didn't. He then said 'they were all drunks; all the skippers in the pre-war submarine force were drunks.' I later had opportunity to discuss this with Bill Rhue, a good WW-II submariner, first editor of the Naval Submarine Review, and someone I'd gotten to know and much respect. I Told him what Rickover had said. Bill paused for quite awhile, and then said something that pretty well confirms the KOG's comment. Bill Rhue" 'they weren't ALL drunks.'
3/06/2010 9:23 AM
Rubber Ducky,
Thank you for your outstanding narrative.
First hand knowledge of things paints a much more personal and realistic picture than some distant historian writing from he said she said.
Bucther aside, the Pueblo is really a small picture of America's lack of leadership in Vietnam.
If you send people into harm's way then make darn sure that there is total and complete support and resources to carry out the mission.
Half-baked and halfass plans seldom succeed and usually at great peril and trmendous scarifice.
How about the noble P3 pilot who landed in China? That was a stand up guy?
3/06/2010 9:35 AM
The last time I saw Pete Bucher was when he was climbing the stairs to the Submarine Sanctuary in Yokosuka the night before PUEBLO and SEADRAGON got underway. He was definitely not sober. Regarding the "drinking reputation" of the submarine force, I can attest to the free flowing booze and culture in the mid sixties. It slowly went away as the diesel boats were decommissioned and the nucs became more prevelant. As most of those currently serving realize, there is not as much free time when a nuc is inport. On a diesel boat, the duty section could successfully be four enlisted on each sub with a nest Duty Officer and Duty Chief for all the boats along side the tender. That is not to say that there weren't some nuc skippers and crews that had heavy drinking reputations - there definitely were - but they became fewer and much farther between as the subforce "aged."
3/06/2010 10:17 AM
Here is a sort of funny story about a Duty Officer on an unamed SSN which was slightly famous for leaving up a scope while transiting beneath an unamed bridge in CT and learned the theory of solid objects bending weaker ones. The DO was on duty one night and he was able to change his POV's brakes on teh pier. This was the older days when you could drive POVs onto the pier, lol. He was and is a great person.
3/06/2010 10:38 AM
I had a good friend who served on the Dogfish and the Runner and he said that in the old days, 40s, 50s, 60s (I know just sort of old) that alcohol was a pretty common past time on the smoke boats. His stories of the subbase in Key West are beyond a PG rating.
3/06/2010 12:23 PM
@ Nuke ET: "When I think of the bad 'ol days of the MSP, I wonder why it is I chose to stay Navy after that assclown."
Because the man that relieved him took about six months (probably more like three) to undo all the wrongs of his predecessor. Even after his tragic loss, he still educates CPOs today. (And the two after him, though temporary, weren't too shabby either)
3/06/2010 2:42 PM
Does anyone know if there was a COB on the MSP around 2003-2004with the initials KK that was a serious ass clown? I think that was the boat unlucky enough to get him?
3/06/2010 3:40 PM
Served with Ratliff on the good ship Cincinnati (SSN-693) while he was the engineer. He didn't start out as screamer (1987-1990), but he went downhill fast. We had a great XO, so I can't say it was the chain of command which put him on the path of volumetric leadership.
Some facts -- he took a swim in Gibraltar harbor Feb 1988. Its in the deck log and was on lib risk for most of Med-run unless with someone senior.
3/06/2010 4:07 PM
I saw Ratliff come into the fleet as an Ensign on Tautog. When I got out 4 years later he was one of the JO's I remembered most fondly. Had respect of the crew and, from what I saw, the goat locker. I was hoping he'd follow the example of our 1st XO, James Metzger, and not our 1st CO. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case.
PW
3/06/2010 4:41 PM
anon@3:40 "Does anyone know if there was a COB on the MSP around 2003-2004with the initials KK that was a serious ass clown? I think that was the boat unlucky enough to get him?"
Yup, he was there. Didn't serve with him long enough to really form an opinion, though if he was an asshat, it only got worse from there.
3/06/2010 4:54 PM
RetANAV,
You are fortunate to have missed his reign. He was a one-way SOB. He would take good care of himself but other folks, well, they were just expendable and I never saw him go to bat for his folks. I knew him when he was younger. He was not solid then and I knew that a few more stars would not make him something that he is not. Was the CO a guy named Farr or something like that at that time?
3/06/2010 6:10 PM
There seems to be a lot of talk about screamers, but for all the negative press they are still around. I once got yelled at (and I do mean yell) by the Commodore in the CO's stateroom. The COB/XO/CO were there, as were the Commodore and the Squadron CMC. The whole control room heard the fireworks. Justified or not that did not seem right to me.
Anyone who thinks all the high volume screamers are gone--read this blog--they are not. "Yells at crew" is not a fitrep block. Results matter, and if you can bully people to results, sometimes you get promoted, and other times you are Lt Niedermeyer.
Most of us do not operate this way, but there are those that do. They might be the minority, but they are still out there.
3/06/2010 7:07 PM
Time wounds all heels.
3/06/2010 7:26 PM
It takes all kinds and even as inadequate as flamers are they find ways to use threat management and coercive leadership to beat their serfs into submission. The beatings will continue until morale improves. If you can not lead them then abuse them is the motto of the screaming gang.
3/06/2010 7:31 PM
Anon, as a wise man once said:
It does not take all kinds,
we just have all kinds.
3/07/2010 4:45 AM
Srvd SSN CO
I stand corrected, you are right.
We do have all kinds. It reminds me of the old TQM guru Dr. Deming and his red and white bead experiment. Are you familiar with that particular object lesson?
I remember when the Navy was on the TQL kick which was a spinoff from TQM. I do not think that the implementation went very well because there was a serious flaw in expectations regarding TQM/TQL. The Navy tried to make TQL into a few courses and a train the trainer course and expected it to be the end all be all. TQM is much more complicated than a few courses can ever impart.
3/07/2010 5:17 AM
There is a wonderful opportunity with the Tyrant Bligh. A masterful strategy of capitalizing on something negative is to repackage it into something positive. Perhaps making some colorful advertising films with the HAG berating, demeaning, destroying and abusing her people? That way the young bright eyed minds will know and see first hand quality EO in action? Young minds might be very receptive to being led by dysfunctional and inept people with low intelligence, poor people skills, low character, maladjusted and diminished capacity to operate in reality and a tyrannical demeanor.
The taxpayers would be very enlightened to know that their tax dollars are being expended so efficiently on such high quality leadership and that this high quality of leadership is guiding, mentoring, leading by example, protecting, nurturing and fostering such positive attitudes amongst the crew.
"Give me a fast ship as I intend to go in harms way" - John Paul Jones
“Give me a fast ship as I intend to abuse my crew, dishonor my oath and trample on proud traditions” – The HAG
3/07/2010 5:50 AM
anon@ 6:10: KK's CO was Ferrer (or something like that)...slightly before my time and, again, KK was on his way out as I was just getting there. As everyone who was there will tell you, the new COB relieved on Oct. 17, 2003.
Ex MSP NAVET: Well said. Couldn't have said it better myself.
3/07/2010 6:32 AM
One of the wisest CMC's I ever knew, Billy Allen, AIRPAC, told me once, "There are two kinds of [COBs]: Career-oriented and crew-oriented. The first guy thinks only about how a decision will affect the upward mobility of his career (believe it or not, there is a path for positional advancement after making E-9 that some guys care about above all else). The second guy weighs every decision, considers every option and every word, on its potential impact on the morale, welfare and performance of the crew. The irony is that the second guy is the one who most often gets the next level job, and deservedly so.
3/07/2010 7:05 AM
ret.cob
So basically there are self-serving butt-shark COBs/CMCs who only watch out for their own worthless lame selfish asses and there are COBs/CMCs who genuinely take care of their people regardless of the consequences and impact on their own status?
I think of some of the old crusty and salty COBs that I have known like Brad Nelson and Dave Padgett (Red). Just between those two men were over 60 years of combined experience from diesel and nuke boats and probably almost 30 of those years as MC experience and leadership.
3/07/2010 8:25 AM
Maybe there's only three of us here who served in the time before senior chiefs and master chiefs, but I can't help wondering if that was not a better time...
3/07/2010 9:40 AM
rubber ducky,
Did Warrants ever serve on smoke boats?
3/07/2010 9:44 AM
Not to my knowledge.
3/07/2010 9:49 AM
Rubber Ducky,
I wonder if there was any gap in leadership and knowledhge when the WWII era officers starting leaving the Navy, like Fluckey? Maybe there was no discernable difference in oerations but it seems that they grew up in a vastly different Navy with a very different mission. Also, they lived the rigor that many others can only talk about. I do not mean to imply that those who followed were not capable but it seems like maybe there was a slight dip in experience.
3/07/2010 10:02 AM
Maybe it wasn't the CO of the COWPENS who has the problem, maybe it was the sensitive crew. Nowadays on submarine, if the nucs don't get enough time to play video games, you can hear them crying at 10k out.
I am thinking it is a combination of an overbearing CO and crewman who have been told no before.
Now back to Warcraft!
3/07/2010 10:16 AM
Anon @ 1002:
Don Kniss used to note that "We are all victim of our own experience." That said, I saw continuity from the WW-II guys and the transition from the old boats to the new was pretty smooth, with the knowledge well transferred and the spirit preserved.
And that includes the transition from diesels to nukes. An earlier thread asked about attitudes in the diesel boats about nukes and nuke duty as they came into the fleet. I answered that it was quite positive: nearly everyone wanted to get into the new boats ... if they could qualify. (Remember: most of the first nuke COs had made war patrols and some (Ned Beach, e.g.) even had command then.)
The first nuke COs were an extraordinarily competent bunch. Good seamen, good shipmates, great submariners. Where I saw the standards degrade was in the late '60s and early '70s, when boiling water was sometimes allowed to substitute for getting hits. But if you look through the exploits of that time and after, you see some great nuke COs going out and doing some absolutely fantastic things ... and still acing their ORSEs too. Some went on to lead the submarine force and Navy: Kelso, Trost, Owens, Kaufman, Bacon, Kauderer, Williams, Williams, many many others.
Look. The submarine force is great. Its standards are where they should be. But pick any puddle of people in the force - COBs, COs, wardrooms, goat lockers, crew mess - and you first have to acknowledge that half the folks in that category are below average. Why aren't all COs great? Because some of them just plain suck. Some are shaky jakes, some aren't very smart, and some aren't very brave. Some lack people skills, some lack seamanship, and some are just miserable human beings.
The system wishes two things: that everyone in it be fantastic; failing that, that there be some way of sorting the good from the bad when these are potentials, before selection and assignment. Keep wishing. In the meantime, the force continues on with high standards and (mostly) great people. It's sorta like real life.
3/07/2010 10:44 AM
There is something to that video game comment. I have seen Chief's Quaters and Wardrooms spend a lot more time playing XBox or Playstation than worrying about other things. The rest of the crew follows suit.
Halfway night consisted of video game challenges....how lame is that?
Yes that is our rough and tumble submarine force of today. And for that reason, I say bring on the gays and women...it can' get any worse!
3/07/2010 10:47 AM
Rubber Ducky,
It is just like life and society in general. I think that there are quality folks and good leaders serving in the submarine force and their proud and capable replacements are in the wings.
I submit that people have a tremendous responsibility to train their people and to do their best to take care of their people. I am not sure if this train your replacement mindset is very prevalent in today’s group and I am pretty far removed from the pond and boats so I don’t have many contacts still around to bounce if off of them.
When something tragic happens like a Waddel and Greenville the big ass microscope comes out and all the skeletons get pulled out of the closet and the finger pointing and blame game start. It seems easy when things are negative that the negative keeps on rolling and the folks still doing an awesome job get slighted or forgotten just a little. Experienced people understand this but I am not sure that the young Sailor’s have grasped it.
All organizations have problems and doing the right thing is to always identify and correct problems rather than hide them and pretend that they do not exist.
Look at all of the positive spinoffs from the USS Thresher loss?
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. George Orwell
3/07/2010 11:04 AM
Rubber Ducky 1044:
Amen to that.
As for your earlier remarks re: the times before there were senior and master chiefs, only you guys would know. My 30 years were all post-Vietnam era.
I can offer this, though, three of the last four MCPONs were COBs, but they weren't plucked off the boat to serve on the CNO's staff. They all had major skimmer or air tours and lower echelon flag staff tours before their selection to the top job.
Certainly one could argue that none of those intermediate jobs, or even the MCPON job for that matter, are necessary at all, but I think they exist, at least in part, because the Commodores and Commanders wanted an experienced CMC to keep them better informed on matters affecting the enlisted force under their command. And that's a pretty good reason! Hell, there was talk at one point - I don't know if it is still a thing or not - of adding a fourth level of chiefs, E-10's, for the CMC's holding three- and four-star level jobs.
If I'm not mistaken, and you would know better than me having been there, E-8 and E-9 were established in part because there were a bunch of chiefs 'working for' other chiefs at these various levels and they wanted a way to differentiate amongst them. For better or for worse, that's what we have. Now you can't tell the master chiefs apart!
But, oh, the stories I could tell you of master chiefs butting heads! Those are precious!!
3/07/2010 11:30 AM
Right... It's the crew's fault. That's roughly morally equivalent to saying "she deserved to be raped, look at how she's dressed".
Face it, there's a lot of barely competent leadership in the submarine force and beyond. Ironically, poor leadership is probably the single biggest driver that pushes people out of the submarine force (and likely the Navy as a whole), thus furthering the cycle. Submarine life is tough, we're well-paid, but barely competently compensated for the difficulty of work and the time spent doing it. Top-shelf leadership is the the one thing that can make the difference.
3/07/2010 11:49 AM
Anon 8:25,
"So basically there are self-serving butt-shark COBs/CMCs who only watch out for their own worthless lame selfish asses and there are COBs/CMCs who genuinely take care of their people regardless of the consequences and impact on their own status?"
The simple answer, as I'm sure you know, is, yep. just like in the wardroom, I'll bet.
As for the list of great COB's, every single submariner who ever lived could add to it: Riley Cupp, Tom Perrine, Bob Saenz, Roger Dumont, and on and on. i don't remember the bad ones so well.
3/07/2010 12:00 PM
ret.cob
I knew some of the WWII era submarine Chief's that stayed in and I don’t think that there were many of them retained after WW II but the ones who were Chiefs before the 1958 addition of E-8s and E-9s and ended up putting on stars later were a decidedly different bunch of Seniors and Masters than seen today. In many ways its apples and oranges but there is certainly more careerism and professional politicking today.
They were from a much different time and they did not tolerate much BS from their Sailors. There was not a lot of stroking, coddling, cajoling, priming and babying of Sailors. There was a much different appreciation and approach to the work ethic and expectations.
3/07/2010 12:01 PM
ret.Cob
Tom Perrine, he was on the Finback I think.
Roger Dumont was on the Archerfish at one time.
Darn good men in every way.
3/07/2010 12:06 PM
Nowadays on submarine, if the nucs don't get enough time to play video games, you can hear them crying at 10k out.
Now that's funny, 'cept that when I was in, it was the sonar geeks who stayed up for multiple watch rotations so they could play D&D.
Has it changed that much in 20 years?
3/07/2010 12:32 PM
anon 1201:
I can only imagine, but war probably selects strong leadership in a way no selction board possibly could.
3/07/2010 12:49 PM
D & D, the ROs used to play that role playing crap many moons ago on ustafish. Now I bet a lot of em have PCs and who knows what they play?
Does'nt anyone play cribbage anymore?
3/07/2010 1:58 PM
Veering off course here, but . . .
Back in '85, way before cell phones, at Orlando NPS, a couple of buddies and I were headed out to Off the Wall on a Friday night. Walking out of the BEQ I passed a group of phone booths, in which one of the phones was ringing. Being the polite guy that I was, I answered the phone and a young woman asked if I could fetch so and so in Bldg XYZ, Room 123.
"Sure," I said, "just a minute."
So off I go to find the guy. When I entered the quad, I noticed that the room's door was ajar and an eerie glow was emanating. I peeked in to see about a dozen ETs playing D&D in a room awash in candle light. I backed out of the room, went back to the phone booth, and told the young lady that not only was her boyfriend not in, but he was real geek.
3/07/2010 2:22 PM
As for the list of great COB's, every single submariner who ever lived could add to it: Riley Cupp, Tom Perrine, Bob Saenz, Roger Dumont, and on and on. i don't remember the bad ones so well.
Ah, Roger Dumont. He made a guest appearance at CPO select PT one year. At the time I thought I was in shape and then he introduced me to "Joe Friday" My arms burned for a week. Met him again a few years later at a Dining In where we put down quite a few. Great time.
3/07/2010 4:27 PM
Roger is still pretty fit. I think that he was leading PT for selectees up in his neck of the woods until recently but they closed that base so he will surely miss it. He used to run the hospital hill in Groton, both ways multiple times. It seems handy that there is a clinic at the top of that hill. The last time I saw Roger he was retired and the guest speaker at a SubVet Holland Club ceremony in Groton around 2003.
3/07/2010 4:44 PM
"I have seen Chief's Quaters and Wardrooms spend a lot more time playing XBox or Playstation than worrying about other things."
Crazy question from an old Chief"
Shouldn't the Chief's be out running the ship?? Maybe the Officers do that now?
Things must be getting easier. Between running a division/department, writing evals, standing watch, training, etc. I barely had enough time to watch part of a movie, much less play video games.
3/07/2010 7:26 PM
You left out one important CPO responsibility and that is training JOs and maybe that is a missing link in why some JOs end up being even more clueless later on.
3/07/2010 10:23 PM
anon @ 7:26 PM:
In my experience that was *exactly* the case. JO's busting their ass doing what should be the chief's jobs, while the chief's break in the Naugahyde in the chief's quarters.
Obviously, there were a few outliers that were good chiefs, but in general....
3/07/2010 10:55 PM
Speaking of screamer COs, has anyone out there met "Crazy Dave" Honnabach, most recently CO of the Jimmy Carter? Now he is one hell of a political butt shark and "blame-gamer." Anyone got any "Crazy Dave" stories to share?
3/08/2010 3:12 AM
Ret.COB:
The previous COB's primary motivation was "Mission first, people second." Fine, as far as it goes, but he never really appreciated that without one, you can't have the other and, as such, both suffered as a result.
His successor believed in two basic tenets:
1. Mission first, people ALWAYS, and
2. Unwavering attention to STANDARDS.
Tom KNEW that without the people, the mission would suffer and ultimately fail and was always fighting for what was best for both the mission AND the crew. In doing so, he rigorously enforced standards and motivated the CPO qtrs AND the crew to demand nothing less than the same. It is because of these traits that he is perhaps the most inspiring CPO I have ever served under...he PROVED how SIMPLE it is to turn a ship around just by following basic tenets that WE ALL KNEW to begin with.
3/08/2010 5:11 AM
Tom Higgins was a good man that is for sure. I reread the investigation of the MSP tragedy in Plymouth, just a darn shame for all involved.
3/08/2010 5:52 AM
Ret anav:
As long as good chiefs keep them in mind, and share them with the rest of us, as you have done, the lessons of good COBs keep on giving long after they are gone. I didn't know Tom, but you and exmspnavet have paid him the highest tribute: remembering.
3/08/2010 6:45 AM
If anyone wants to use an outstanding leadership example for CPO selectee training, the Cochino and Tusk in 1949 is a good historical reference. The actions of the CO, Benitez and the XO, Wright, just two of many men that persevered and endeavored under extreme stress and loss of life during the loss of the Cochino are worthy of emulation by all hands and genuine leadership by example.
3/08/2010 7:14 AM
ON a side note: 2010/19 New USNA Commandant of Midshipmen Announced, Robert Clark II. Congrats to Commodore Clark.
3/08/2010 8:16 AM
If the post above is correct, the Academy is getting a fine officer as the second in command. He will also be able to keep closer tabs on his son who is a member of the class of 2013. I had heard that he was nominated but did not think he would get the job since the Superintendent is also a submariner. Two "bubbleheads" in charge at Canoe U. Hmmmmm.
3/08/2010 9:20 AM
Fowler is retiring, which keeps the diversity in line. His son is there? Nice!
3/08/2010 9:25 AM
"Notes on Writing Naval English." That's the title of a 1949 article in American Neptune by the dean of WW-II naval history writers, Samuel Eliot Morrison, 'Historian of U. S. Naval Operations, World War II' as the magazine describes him.
In it he is careful to say that one serves IN a ship, not ON it. ("If you use ON, it must be accompanied by BOARD.")
Let us strive for proper phraseology, mates...
3/08/2010 10:55 AM
Good to see the SUBRON4 incidents have not kept Clark from moving on. Good luck to him.
3/08/2010 11:02 AM
rd:
Thanks! I just made the same point to a college professor when she dinged me for using "in" instead of "on." I didn't have the reference you cited, so I told her is was "on" a ship and "in" a submarine. She thought that sounded right... Good enough for me!
3/08/2010 11:27 AM
"Good to see the SUBRON4 incidents have not kept Clark from moving on. Good luck to him."
Second the motion here...good choice for CanoeU.
Side note: Just noticed Norm is now retired and up in D.C.
3/08/2010 11:36 AM
This comment has been removed by the author.
3/08/2010 11:36 AM
"In" for both surface ships and submarines, per Morison. But never in a 'vessel' - ships are to sail in, vessels to pee in. Straighten the girl out.
3/08/2010 11:39 AM
rd: roger....
3/08/2010 12:01 PM
RD,
Sometimes you can post interesting reading, and sometimes you can be a total anal dickhead. If I too was retired and had not much better to do than spend my days at TSSBP, I'd be tempted to go back through your posts a lookin for all your gramatical boo boos. Lighten up......
3/08/2010 3:12 PM
Why should we care about a 1949 article? Who elected this guy king or naval terminology?
3/08/2010 3:44 PM
RD,
I for one appreciate the insight and reference to Naval tradition, even the grammatical type.
3/08/2010 3:53 PM
He's right. And a good XO (or YN) knows this from award writing. It is "while serving in USS BIGFISH..." not "while serving on USS BIGFISH..."
I only know so because my YNC caught it every time...
3/08/2010 4:16 PM
Anon, 3:44/3:55,
You two mental midgets have revealed by your comments and questions that this is a subject that you do not have the basic intelligence to even process or comprehend the answer for. Stick with your cartoons, video games, MTV and coloring books so you do not overheat your brains.
3/08/2010 4:37 PM
One should worship at the alter of Samuel Eliot Morison. And one should know why.
Landlubbers and shoe-clerks excepted, of course.
3/08/2010 5:02 PM
Duck:
Glad to see those two didn't leave you crying in your grammatical cheerios! It took me forever to make "in" a habit and I still screw it up once in a while, like when I was on ustafish.
3/08/2010 5:18 PM
Ret,cob.
I look at it like this, do you go in a room or space vice on a room? Well, maybe people with potty training issues might go on a room but hopefully most people go in (enter) a room or a space.
Now the Moon is a caveat because man landed on vice in, in would pose engineering challenges and be messy.
Cheesy humor.
3/08/2010 6:08 PM
I have a recent copy of Morison's "Two Ocean War..." I've read it multiple times. Of course, he really shortchanges the Sub Service, but I'm not surprised. I wish that I could find a complete set of his "United States Naval Operations in WWII" for a reasonable price. Amazon doesn't have the whole thing, just says it is "limited availability" and doesn't even give a price. They do have some, not all, of the volumes individually, but at $16.47 each that's too rich for my blood.
Joe Alferio
3/10/2010 8:08 AM
Joe,
Maybe you can find it in electronic format? Once they get stuff into that format it is dirt cheap to reproduce.
3/10/2010 8:37 AM
Joe A:
Maybe what you want is Roscoe's "Submarine Operations in WW-II." I think he also has a volume on destroyer ops.
BTW, WW-ii submarine patrols reports are available online.
3/10/2010 9:13 AM
Rubber Ducky;
Any chance you can provide a link to the WWII sub patrol reports online?
Thanks,
Joe Alferio
3/10/2010 10:56 AM
"As for the list of great COB's, every single submariner who ever lived could add to it: Riley Cupp, Tom Perrine, Bob Saenz, Roger Dumont, and on and on. i don't remember the bad ones so well."
Amen. You can add David Bruce Follo and Lance Reynolds to that list. Both those guys not only knew what it meant to LEAD, but MENTORED the junior guys before mentoring became a catchword. If you're still around, MC Follo and MC Reynolds, next one's on me.
3/10/2010 10:58 AM
Patrol reports: http://hnsa.org/doc/subreports.htm
3/10/2010 11:55 AM
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/03/navy_graf_update_030910w/
3/12/2010 7:57 PM
FYI:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/mar/15/submarine-crash-navy-court-martial
3/15/2010 3:50 PM
RUSSIAN TO LAUNCH NEW FAST ATTACKin May; scroll down for other Russian sub info.
http://tinyurl.com/y9pzkke
3/17/2010 11:10 AM
http://tinyurl.com/y9pzkke
RUSSIAN TO LAUNCH NEW ATTACK SUBMARINE IN MAY
Scroll down for other Russia sub articles.
3/17/2010 11:11 AM
Removed a comment.
11/12/2010 12:50 PM
Strange: Just got an e-mail relating for a March news post, "Graf."
Am I still welcome on "Stupid?"
11/12/2010 1:07 PM
Nancy -- You're always welcome here.
Deleting some comments at the request of the person mentioned.
1/13/2011 5:32 PM
Removed some spamments.
3/26/2012 6:47 AM
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