USS Chicago CO Fired
The CO of USS Chicago (SSN 721), CDR Jeff Cima, was fired yesterday for Conduct Unbecoming following some sort of drunkedness episode at a recent ROTC visit. Excerpts:
Cima was relieved of command yesterday following what's known as a captain's mast, an administrative review that does not entail a court-martial, officials said. The drunkenness occurred at a Navy ROTC visit on March 10, Benham said. He said he couldn't identify what ROTC program was involved for privacy reasons.SUBPAC quickly replaced the link to CDR Cima's webpage from the Chicago with a link to the new temporary CO, but left Cima's main page (linked above and here) on the site, so you can see his biography until they read this and take it down.
Benham said Cima was relieved of command for misconduct and loss of confidence in his ability to command. The charges that the Navy said Cima was found guilty of are a career-ender in the Navy.
I'm off two minds on this. Obviously I don't know for sure what he did, but it always used to be that ROTC visits were a time where the CO could blow off a little steam away from always having to be "proper" in front of the crew. On the other hand, there's something to be said for a guy who has the self-discipline to go three years without having to blow off steam.
I had one XO who said that one of his main duties was keeping the CO from doing something stupid while on the beach during liberty. What do you think? Is a CO allowed to get rip-roaring drunk every once in a while, especially when he's not in the same town as the boat? Or is any public display of alcohol-fueled stupidity verboten for the CO?
(Navy Times also has the story posted, with a list of other Navy COs who have been fired so far this year. Also, thanks to everyone who E-mailed me that this was going to come out; as I've said before, I don't like posting stuff like this until at least something comes out in the media.)
Update 1912 18 Mar: Navy Times has an update with some details from the incident. Excerpts:
An attack submarine commander fired Monday for “drunkenness” was attending an annual event for NROTC midshipmen at Cornell University in New York when the incident occurred, Navy Times has learned...If that's really all there was to it, it makes the justification for the firing all the more curious. If the midshipmen got that flustered from a situation like this, I hope they'll get a little more worldly before they hit the fleet. It makes me wonder if Ithaca, NY, doesn't have taxis...
... Around 7 p.m. March 10, Cima and an unidentified lieutenant junior grade who accompanied him joined a dozen mids for dinner at a local pizza place, Olsen said. This was typical of the host unit, he added, as it offers a “less formal” environment where the midshipmen can talk about the Navy or the subject that was earlier briefed.
Olsen said alcohol was consumed at the event, and sometime after 11 p.m., the midshipmen were ready go back because “they have a busy week before spring and have tests coming up.” But by that time, Cima and the junior officer were drunk and the mids didn’t know what to do, he said. They called a lieutenant from the NROTC unit, who took the pair back to their hotel.
The lieutenant reported the event to Olsen the next day, who turned the matter over to Submarine Squadron 3.
Update 1654 20 March: Once again, comments have exceeded the limit of what it's easy to read (you have to click the button to add a comment to see everything after yesterday afternoon), so I'm closing comments.
posted by Bubblehead at 3:19 PM
221 Comments:
Wow, well this is a separate issue but Chicago was in the news back in the late 90s with the gay COB. It seems like the COB used his personal e-mail with some kind of gay sounding name and the OMB contacted a squadron POC, a YN or PN who contacted AOL and long story short, the Navy violated the COB’s legal rights and the COB won in court. He was immediately promoted to Master Chief and the Navy was directed to place him back into a similar job. It seems like McVeigh negotiated and he retired as a Master Chief. He also settled out of court with AOL. He was gay and because the Navy screwed up he laughed all the way to the bank.
The case in point with the CO fired on Chicago, it seems like there are a lot of unknowns and it seems like there has to be much more than just a single point failure.
3/16/2010 3:56 PM
Having over time visited the Academy more than once and several NROTC units, as dining-in speaker, lecturer, guest, and submarine recruiting, I would say that Cima's drunkenness on an NROTC visit manages to combine boorish behavior with abuse of his position in a new and bizarre way.
He was on his visit for a reason, a Navy reason and probably a submarine reason, and to get bozo-drunk while there is simply unacceptable. Proper charge: drunk on duty.
What's the question again???
3/16/2010 4:03 PM
Upon completion of the PCO (now Submarine Command Course) every PCO is presented a framed certificate entitled command at sea. Among the motherhood enscribed on that certificate is the following: "There is not an instant during his tour as CO that he can escape the grasp of command responsibility."
I have no idea what the details of this incident are, but he was on official duty representing the Navy and Submarine Force.
It may have been acceptable in the past, but times have changed.
3/16/2010 4:34 PM
We're barely in the 3rd week of 2010 and he makes #7. It's obvious that (Erma Grese) Nazi carpet eating and ass whipping ugly Bitch Holly Graf(It's too bad she didn't look more like Diane Thorne) should have been hanged some time ago, but what the hell is going on with the rest of these guys?
Just how drunk was this guy?...and which college are we talking bout? This first quarter is not looking to good.
3/16/2010 5:17 PM
An objective TSSBP reader may want to compare the actual harm (?) done by CDR Cima to the actual harm done by his British colleage, CDR Drysdale. Drysdale, you recall, received only a well-deserved reprimand.
My prediction of yesteryear (commenting in an earlier TSSBP post) is being fulfilled as BH writes... non USNA graduates are being systematically culled from the submarine hierarchy in advance of the women's liberation movement into "one of the last bastions of of gender segregation".
Now, before any of you snotty ring wearers gets his/her panties in a wad, do yourselves a favor and tell us exactly why Capt. Holy Graf and the famous female astronaut are still in the Navy!
Is it because positive PR trumps basic fairness, or because it is time women got a break and men (non-USNA) must suffer?
3/16/2010 5:24 PM
Had a CO in the mid-80's that liked to bring girls down to his stateroom during PI port visits. Is this not allowed anymore?
Another CO in early 90's during a Subic port visit was on the floor of a bar during a private floor show with a girl sitting on his face. The XO, being squared away, pulled the CO off the floor and gave him a beer. He told the CO in front of the cheering crew: "Captain, I don't think your wife would approve" and promply got on the floor in his place! The CO told the XO "good backup" and raised a toast to the XO.
Ahh...good times on WESTPAC!
3/16/2010 5:36 PM
The famous female astronaut, always took of her crew and did her job accordingly. Did she have a brain-fart and go after the AF O3?...yes she did.
But no-one is dead and everyone still has a decent career going on despite recent difficulties. I would say the space chick has a spanking coming and that's it. Other than that, let her retire in peace.
3/16/2010 5:42 PM
The famous female astronaut, always took of her crew and did her job accordingly. Did she have a brain-fart and go after the AF O3?...yes she did.
But no-one is dead and everyone still has a decent career going on despite recent difficulties. I would say the space chick has a spanking coming and that's it. Other than that, let her retire in peace.
3/16/2010 5:43 PM
What is the Navy coming too...sailors can't even drink anymore. I knew this guy at the Pentagon and he was/still is a stand up guy. I seem to remember that short two star sitting at subpac was quite a drinker in his younger years. What can I say, times have changed. How many guys is he going to crush just to get that third star?
3/16/2010 5:53 PM
I am surprised to hear that CDR Jeff Cima is in any kind of trouble. He was XO on USS PENNSYLVANIA for alot of my time there, and I think he was the second best XO I ever had (second only to Jon Dowell on the USS Pogy - a very tough act to follow!) He was fair and professional, and he truly cared about the crew. I've seem Cima at plenty of ship's functions from picnics to swim calls with female midshipmen, and he was always professional and setting the best example as the XO.
While I believe that the upper chain of command does need to set the example of behavior to subordinates, I also believe that this incident must be an isolated incident. I don't know the facts of this event, but I'm guessing it had to be really bad for the brass to end his career.
3/16/2010 6:06 PM
I submit that having not one but two immediate relatives of flag rank kinda helped Capt. Graf - more so than being an Academy alumni. Being of the female gender didn't hurt either.
3/16/2010 6:11 PM
Cima was my XO on Penn, and I didn't really like him much. At least in part, this was due to my attitude at the time, which DID need some adjustment. I'm actually pretty surprised this happened, as I never once took CDR Cima to be one bit of fun. I probably would have liked him more if I knew he partied occasionally.
Interestingly, I know he was on the Pasadena for it's collision (I think the one in '98, unless there is another I'm unaware of), and I'm pretty damn sure I remember him saying he was the OOD (and the CO of the Penn Blue at the time was actually the NAV during the same collision!). At least this time he only wrecked his career.
3/16/2010 6:13 PM
There has been plenty a Chief babysit COs from making jackasses of themselves in public. Some people have the maturity and discretion and others just can not handle themselves in public.
3/16/2010 6:21 PM
vigilis said:
An objective TSSBP reader may want to compare the actual harm (?) done by CDR Cima to the actual harm done by his British colleage, CDR Drysdale. Drysdale, you recall, received only a well-deserved reprimand.
My only thought on this is that the Brit made a mistake, and this dude did what he did on purpose. Big difference, and incredibly poor judgment on CDR Cima's part. I don't know the full story, but what he actually did must have been a hum-dinger to have gotten fired over it.
3/16/2010 6:25 PM
Even 10 years ago any sort of alcohol-related incident was a no-no, to the point a DUI would mean no reenlisting for us enlisted types. Having said that, there was a bit of difference between what went on during Westpacs and what went on in SD or Pearl as to what was tolerated and what wasn't. Obviously I don't know squat about what happened, but to have a CO relieved on the spot doesn't sound like it was a simple case of getting a little tipsy down in Waikiki.
3/16/2010 6:26 PM
anon @ 6:13 - I was on Pasadena in '98, and we didn't have any collisions - maybe you're thinking of some other boat?
3/16/2010 6:49 PM
At that level of leadership, it's possible to lose your job without creating a public scene, or breaking the law. One need only seek medical attention with an elevated BAC that is brought to the boss's attention. Turn in your command pin, Commander or Senior/Master Chief. You're done. Of course, other included difficulties could make matters worse, but at a minimum, the ISIC is looking for a replacement, fast. If the boss is smart, and the guy is contrite and receptive of help, the boss will arrange for some medical help and a new job and a continued career as long as the guy stays sober. If not, party's over. This case does pale in comparison to the sea mountain collision case. Again, no comparison, and yet quite a difference in results. On the other hand, ever met a Brit bubblehead who couldn't hold his liquor?
3/16/2010 6:54 PM
anon @ 6:49. It must have been on the drum, and may not have been in 98. A quick wikipedia search shows they had a collision in 95. Not sure where the 98 came from... must be getting old
3/16/2010 7:12 PM
As a former enlisted 3366, I felt a little twinge of pain to hear of a CO being relieved for getting snockered at a party/function/pr mission away from the boat. I realize I know no specifics, but still.....
The best XO I had (and I had four on one boat) was a mustanger who would lift a brewski with the boys in blue. Back then, and now (25 years after the fact), I would follow him to and through the gates of Hell and back.
There were a few uptight a**holes who served in the wardroom who would never get the respect of a man's man. 'Nuff said!
Don't get me wrong here, I was a squared away sailor, and expect that much and even more from my leadership when on the boat. However, it's a damn poor submarine community when a sub sailor of any rank can't tie one on (occasionally) and not loose his job as a result.
What would Dex armstrong say?
3/16/2010 7:18 PM
I served with Ltjg Cima on the Drum in San Diego. As a QM3, I dealt with him quite a bit when he qualified as OOD. He was very easy to work with and was very low key. This one surprises me quite a bit. I know people change over the years, but this guy was respected as a JO.In fact, our XO at the time who is now wearing a star, was well known to rip into OOD's and DOOW's right in control.He hated the incompetant JO's big time. Never once did I see the XO rip into Cima. Cima's only JO I served with that went on to command and thought he'd do good. Guess not.
3/16/2010 7:30 PM
That short two star sitting at subpac was a Napoleonesque prick as an XO. And from what I've heard over the years, nothing has changed. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that Cima was, at a minimum, guilty of extremely poor judgment in today's PC climate.
As was alluded to above, gotta make way for the chicks and those PC sycophants who will bow to the whims of them that want 'em.
3/16/2010 7:31 PM
My buddy is on the Chicago and said that they had quarters on the pier yesterday at 1030 and the Captain told the crew that he was being relieved of command for conduct unbecoming. He was on the "verge of tears" and it was a "very sad day" for everyone" to quote my old shipmate.
IMHO "Napoleon" has his head so far up the CNO's ass that i second what a previous poster wrote about him wanting that third star at the expense of those below him. Me says what we need is a good torpedo shooting war to clean out the incompetent and not just those that get drunk. The Navy needs to get its priorities back in line.
3/16/2010 7:54 PM
We are all adults. If you want to have a few drinks, fine, but you need to think about when and where and how that might be perceived by others. Interaction as a CO with NROTC midshipman equates to being on duty - have one drink to be social an that's it. Perhaps I am reaching but the Navy has had too many recent embarrassing CO interactions with female junior officers/enlisted/vice cops/somebody else's spouse. Perhaps this is a preemptive strike to avoid any potential future situations of CO drinking on duty + NROTC females,etc = nothing good.
3/16/2010 7:56 PM
Sadly, if this was a result of an interaction with a female while he was intoxicated, I shudder to think what's going to happen when boats start crewing up with females and the inevitable liberty ports of Thailand, PI, Freemantle, and whatever the poor East Coast sods got come around.
3/16/2010 8:06 PM
Observation from the flight deck of a MSC T-AE-35 in 2007. Pattaya, Subic, Koror Palau, etc. are considered "dude" ports by Navy women OS's assigned to my ammo ship. A lot of Navy women hate those port visits because of "viking" liberty reputations. won't be very enjoyable for anyone with Women onboard the boat. Maybe best not go there anymore to keep everyone "squared away" in the today's politically correct Navy.
Just a thought--read "The Left Handed Monkey Wrench" by Richard McKenna and you will get a good idea how the Navy has come full circle back to the 1920-30's re: liberty policy.
My two cents................
DBFTMC(SS)USNRET
3/16/2010 8:38 PM
I remember as a prospective NUPOC in 1978, CDR Van Metre took the beer keg from the O-Club in Charleston and put in the back of his Corvette. From that day on, I wanted to be a Nuclear Submarine Officer! And I did ... for 20 years!!!
3/16/2010 8:41 PM
If you are a squadron commander, and you learn one of your commanding officers did something that "doesn't read well in the newspaper," it is your job to cover your ass and fire him. It's always been that way ... if you sweep it under the carpet and you are discovered, you will be deep-sixed with the rest of them. Period.
3/16/2010 8:45 PM
Q.: Is a CO allowed to get rip-roaring drunk every once in a while, especially when he's not in the same town as the boat?
A.: Sure...provided that he's not in public. And not driving. And not being hurtful to his family. And not otherwise violating the UCMJ.
In other words: Not really.
3/16/2010 8:48 PM
TMC, McKenna was Sand Pebbles author or director right? Sand Pebbles is an awesome old school Navy flick.
3/16/2010 8:52 PM
There is some real inequity in some things. Capt Bligh was allowed twice to abuse two different crews and she simply transfers and will probably stay in until 30 to draw O-6 pay. We do not know the full details with this CO off the Chicago but I would not be surprised if it is some chickenshit BS stuff. Nothing surprises me in the modern Navy.
3/16/2010 8:57 PM
While I don't agree with this CO getting hammered and making an ass out of himself, it seems that the Navy is becoming the last damn place I want to be. It seems this outfit is turning into someone's big science experiment in social engineering, and it's going to screw us in the end!
Oh, and the perception that the USNA folks can get away with anything is really worrying me. How many crews was it going to take before Graf was fired? How many AF O-3s will USNA astronauts attempt to murder before the hammer is dropped (NO DAMN RETIREMENT!)? How many USNA football players can pop positive with mutliple HONOR code violations and still remain in the service?
Folks...the shit will hit the fan soon enough, and it will stick to everyone. God help us when WWIII kicks off...the problems before WWII for the sub force will pale in comparison to what it coming down the pike for the ENTIRE Navy.
3/16/2010 9:44 PM
vigilis said...
My prediction of yesteryear (commenting in an earlier TSSBP post) is being fulfilled as BH writes... non USNA graduates are being systematically culled from the submarine hierarchy in advance of the women's liberation movement into "one of the last bastions of of gender segregation".
How you can turn a CO being fired for drunken foolishness into the victim of USNA Conspiracy and Women on Subs is beyond me. It reeks of paranoia and victim mentality, and discredits whatever ridiculous cause it is you're trying to promote here.
3/16/2010 9:47 PM
No you got it wrong... Current subpac was long gone off Drum before Cima even got there. I was refering to RADM Brady. About 6'3" and not afraid to chew out the OOD,Dive,or even the helmsmen. Well respected by the crew though and a good guy. Wanted me to put in an Academy Package while on Drum but I wanted to get out. 9 months later after Drum decommed and I was on Lajolla as QMOW, he recognized me on the plot and had a good 5 minute conversation about me getting out of the Navy and my future plans.Was on TRE team. No surprise he's wearing a star today. Overall great guy.
3/16/2010 9:53 PM
"Sadly, if this was a result of an interaction with a female while he was intoxicated, I shudder to think what's going to happen when boats start crewing up with females and the inevitable liberty ports of Thailand, PI, Freemantle, and whatever the poor East Coast sods got come around."
Yeah! Get women off subs, that way we won't see any more Sub COs relieved for........Drunkenness. Right. Clearly our integrated submarine force is the impetus behind this whole incident.
I shudder to think of what raging, blatent, sexism our female shipmates will be walking into in just a few short months. These women haven't even reported yet and we're already blaming them for our problems. Unbelievable.
3/16/2010 10:36 PM
Uh, Adam?
To quote a phrase, "Lighten up, Francis." I didn't say that women were to blame, nor that their presence would be a bad thing as long as everyone behaves. But in our PC-saturated culture, going into what have heretofore been traditionally "male" liberty ports isn't going to help unit cohesion in a mixed-gender crew. Even you can see that, can't you?
3/16/2010 11:15 PM
it's worse than you know
3/17/2010 1:19 AM
This generation might be the most PC generation but they are certainly not the smartest generation.
3/17/2010 5:31 AM
@1:19 AM
"it's worse than you know"
Maybe, but it's not worse than we can take...
3/17/2010 6:11 AM
Anonymous 3/16 9:47 PM -
"...the victim of USNA Conspiracy and Women on Subs is beyond me."
With the pattern demonstrated it has now appears less a conspiracy than an unwritten policy.
You cleverly neglected trying to answer my specific questions about the astronaut and Capt Graf. Too difficult for you? Want more evidence?
Guess you may have forgotten (or never knew) how the USNA bent its own rules to keep the pregnant midshiphwoman enrolled (2007)?
Still, your closed mind is probably already decided - its my conspiracy theory, right?
3/17/2010 6:22 AM
"it's worse than you know"
OK. What did this guy do? One loses privacy rights when one does something stupid in public.
In general, I think the best guidance on what is and is not allowed is found in a comment made by a prominent London actress about the sodomy trial of Oscar Wilde: 'I don't care what they do, as long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses.' It sure sounds like Cima scared the horses....
3/17/2010 6:26 AM
PC translates to Perpetually Clueless.
It is obvious that the USNA is producing a very weak leadership base and perpetuating it by weakening the community.
Prima donnas are very predictable. Covering up their own failings and each others asses while Rome burns.
3/17/2010 6:28 AM
Regarding both Lisa Nowak (astronaut) and Holly Graf: each are facing administrative boards to determine if either one is to remain on active duty.
Action on Nowak was held off pending her trial, in which she pled guilty to felonies that will almost certainly see her sent to retirement.
Graf's case seems less certain. She has been diverted from a hi-viz Pentagon job to a low-viz staff job at Dahlgren. I think it gets down to what she wants. The Navy has many examples of officers who've served well out of the limelight after screwing the pooch in public.
Keep in mind: trials, courts martial, and Article 15 Masts determine punishment; administrative proceedings determine administrative matters like continuation of service, which matters are generally outside the scope of trials unless levied as punishment.
3/17/2010 6:35 AM
I sure am glad that I'm not in the Navy. It was getting bad when I was honorably discharged. It's sad to see women such as Graf that get to keep their career going but men that do far less get their Naval careers destroyed.
3/17/2010 6:35 AM
most likely, CDR Cima will keep his career HAG is. He'll just be shuffled along from meaningless staff job to staff job until high year tenure or he chooses to retire.
3/17/2010 6:40 AM
Corporate Navy is a whole different thing than the Navy on the deckplate.
Sometimes the deckplate sees folks transferred but the final outcome might not be evident. Many folks have been shuffled out of sight to another desk in another area and allowed to quietly serve until retiring.
What makes Capt Bligh and her kind (Blatantly failed leadership)so distasteful is that she is negligent and derelict but her connections and status allow her to appear to get away with failed leadership.Also, the fact that it was tolerated for years sends a signal that you can get away with almost anything given the right circumstances.
3/17/2010 6:47 AM
I'm curious about why employers, both government and private sector, keep details on firings secret, or buried in layers of bureaucratic language.
I'd think they'd want to make it precisely clear exactly what line was crossed that got someone fired so others wouldn't make the same mistake.
3/17/2010 8:23 AM
Hey Joel, not to change the subject, but the Honolulu Advertiser quoted you - http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20100317/NEWS08/3170337/Sub+skipper+at+Pearl+relieved+of+command
3/17/2010 9:04 AM
Word on the street is that a female ROTC middie asked him about being on subs and he told her (in his alcohol induced state) his opinion of women on subs and she then reported him.
3/17/2010 9:13 AM
Just one more sign of the PC times. As mentioned by several, until any details are known it is a lot of speculation...but he clearly exceeded the limits. I wonder if he was aware of the limits....
I suspect things will only become more challenging on the waterfront when the female submariners arrive and DADT goes away as well. Talk about adding lots of distractions on top of all the current requirements. What stress relievers are appropriate?
3/17/2010 9:20 AM
I was under the presumption that the term "drunken sailors" came from just that....a drunk sailor. It's unfortunate that it happened to be a CO but really was relieving him of his charge necessary?
Throughout the years I've seen many younger sub sailors given numerous chances to clean up their act. Why not afford the same for the higher ups?
3/17/2010 9:38 AM
Wow. If all the C.O. did was give his (alcohol-induced) opinion, and GOT FIRED for that, then this is one sad, sick Navy these days, gents.
3/17/2010 9:43 AM
Ex ssn eng:
agreed. Please tell us there was more to it than that!
3/17/2010 10:34 AM
This cracks me up. The Navy of today is so different from the way it was just 30 years ago. I won't name boats but on my final one the XO called us to quarters on the pier in Subic and said "FIND THE CAPTAIN!" We found him staggering down Magsaisai with a girl on each arm. He had been missing for 3 days.
Did he lose his command? No.
And what is with these new ugly uniforms? Makes me think they are in the Army. And WOMEN on submarines? Who is the moron that thought that up? Only if it is a 100% female crew.
Okay. I guess what really got me was talking to one of the current sailors and telling the sea story of duck taping a guy by his feet in ERLL and attaching a vacuum cleaner to a certain portion of his anatomy. The capt walked through and told him "Stop messing around and clean that bilge". The sailor I told that to told me that anybody doing that today would be drummed out of the Navy for harrassment, hazing, etc etc. Wow. Just wow.
3/17/2010 10:41 AM
I'm curious about why employers, both government and private sector, keep details on firings secret, or buried in layers of bureaucratic language.
Legal: libel and defamation of character (even if absolutely true) charges would cost so much to defend or settle that it's not worth it.
-LT L
3/17/2010 11:04 AM
This comment has been removed by the author.
3/17/2010 11:34 AM
donomite:
"The Navy of today is so different from the way it was just 30 years ago."
Um, yeah. 30 years ago we stopped by the "social club" on the way to quarters. Boat picnics had three kegs, one of which ended up back at somebody's house for the after picnic party. The CO drove us back the boat from the club because he didn't want US to get the DUI and figured base cops would NEVER give him one. One time, two chiefs sat with three of us junior guys in the beer cooler at the AF base package store drinking and drank a a six pack with us before we paid for the case we planned to take home. Another time, we drove down Dorchester Rd in Charleston throwing empty beer bottles at each others' cars. And we never got in any trouble (except from the ole ladies!). Never. Hell, most of the time the wardroom or goat locker was right there with us. Part of me thinks the changes have been good for us, and another part of me wonders how we made it out alive! We have given up too much comraderie and shit, that's for sure...
3/17/2010 12:02 PM
he wanted to give a female midshipman more than his opinion
3/17/2010 12:10 PM
I say back that up or STFU, 12:10 anon.
Not saying that a forthright proposition is impossible or unlikely, but I'm also unconvinced that it's flat-out against the UCMJ.
He hit on some female middie...or assaulted her? Big difference.
3/17/2010 12:14 PM
"a female ROTC middie asked him about being on subs"
or
"he wanted to give a female midshipman more than his opinion"
Perhaps untrue, but, regardless, we can expect more non-academy COs to be relieved as only USNA-minted males properly assure female underlings are accomodated in the desired PC naval environment.
What is the desired submarine environment? One in which the entire chain of command ignores: All but grave female shortcomings (Capt Nowak); Benchmarking to their male counterparts (Capt Graf); PREGNANCY (First Known Case of Pregnant Naval Academy Graduate)
http://www.allgov.com/ViewNews/First_Known_Case_of_Pregnant_Naval_Academy_Graduate_90718
What many NROTC grads lack is the peculiar political conditioning that is de rigueur at USNA assuring that all its male graduates are reliably PC.
3/17/2010 12:19 PM
If "anonymous" is correct in his assertion that the straw that broke the CO's back was unwanted advances, that means that the seven DFCs referenced break down as:
5 cases involving sexually related maters (fraternization, solicitation, possible harrassment?),
1 cruelty, and
1 unspecified "inappropriate conduct" (what's the over/under this is sexually related, too?)
Anyone see a recurring theme? Maybe the Navy needs to explore the way they solved male/female tensions in Joe Haldeman's The Forever War, by requiring sleeping partners to both relieve stress and avoid frustrations and tensions. Or maybe not...
The basics of this story reminded me of a XO/CO screening board I once worked where the first order of business was to de-screen an XO who had a liberty incident in Haifa involving lots of booze, a couple of TMs, tounge kissing and a nipple ring. Needless to say, the vote was unanimous.
3/17/2010 12:31 PM
Word on the street is that a female ROTC middie asked him about being on subs and he told her (in his alcohol induced state) his opinion of women on subs and she then reported him.
If true, little Napoleon has an even larger case of little man syndrome that I knew. This does not bode well for the boats. Make way for the swishy pants comfortable shoe wearers, oh, and the women too.
3/17/2010 12:32 PM
I sure love these stories of the "good old days"!
I guess what really got me was talking to one of the current sailors and telling the sea story of duck taping a guy by his feet in ERLL and attaching a vacuum cleaner to a certain portion of his anatomy.
Don't ask, don't tell dude! This is possibly the GAYEST sea story I have ever heard. Why do you think it's funny?
The CO drove us back the boat from the club because he didn't want US to get the DUI and figured base cops would NEVER give him one.
Driving drunk is a GREAT time!
Another time, we drove down Dorchester Rd in Charleston throwing empty beer bottles at each others' cars. And we never got in any trouble (except from the ole ladies!).
Now we're driving drunk AND throwing glass bottles out the window at each other. Classic! Why should you "get in trouble" for this?
We have given up too much comraderie and shit, that's for sure...
Yep putting your own life, and the lives of other innocent people in danger with ridiculously stupid acts is something we all miss! The "comraderie" of the submarine force has taken a HUGE hit.
3/17/2010 12:34 PM
Vigilis: Lighten up, Francis...
My sympathy to the relieved CO, and I am impressed that he looked his crew in the eye and told them of his problem and the accountability thereof. The mark of a true gentleman. He may have fallen short, but he is picking himself up with elegance and grace.
3/17/2010 12:40 PM
Drunks sober up but ignorance and stupidity never go away.
3/17/2010 12:41 PM
Anonymous 3/17/2010 12:40 PM
"My sympathy to the relieved CO, and I am impressed that he looked his crew in the eye and told them of his problem and the accountability thereof."
Careful, Francis, perhaps other readers, myself included, are wondering just what CO you are thinking about.
3/17/2010 1:01 PM
The culture that surround the COs firing is the real genuine object of much discussion.
Hopefully it was not from pissing off some NUB ROTC person. NUBS deserve and have earned nothing. Some of these kids think they are so powerful only because the authority figures have become neutered with the PC BS and the pussification of society.
Wait until the gender pony rides down the pier and crosses the brow. If you think that it will not happen then you are naive, foolish and very inexperienced in life.
3/17/2010 1:28 PM
If the NROTC female story is true, can't wait to hear how she's treated in the fleet once word of her panties in a knot hissy fit got a CO canned story arrives prior to her crossing the brow.
I'm guessing qualification can become a real, no pun intended, bitch.
3/17/2010 1:55 PM
I think I would rather read Mulligan's posts than Vigilis' load of crap, chip on his shoudler, worthless and unsubstantiated accusations about Academy grads.
Or maybe Vigilis is Mulligan....
3/17/2010 2:08 PM
I was in nuke school class 9604. So, not too long after women were let back into the nuke program. I remember one female student that got rolled back no less than 4 times, whereas males got 1 roll back. And, one a-school couple was caught fooling around in the student parking lot one weekend. The male was masted, and sent as a un-designated striker to the surface fleet (a fate we thought was worse than death). Not a damn thing happened to the female, she graduated with her class and got her crow. It was consensual, btw.
It stands to reason that the higher-ups that set the policies that allowed this to happen to NUBs, are even higher up the food chain. So much so that it effects COs now.
3/17/2010 2:15 PM
Perhaps a chance opportunity to do some pre-submarine under-instruction quals-how to properly snorkel...the vacuuam breaker may have failed:)
3/17/2010 2:36 PM
"I'm guessing qualification can become a real, no pun intended, bitch."
And I'm guessing the girls will get their dolphins in record times, or else. The whole point is for men to make the women 'look good' for the public, even if only 30% of the women can ever perfom to real emergency standards.
Surface ship emergencies are rarely as pressing, demanding, and frightening as most of those on subs, after all.
SECNAV Mabus is already planning for the first woman sub CO. Unlike males, she may be allowed to follow this progression:
tender -> sub XO -> sub CO.
One thing ignored in Mabus's brilliant thinking is that the confidence required in a submarine CO must be 99-100%. On a surface ship, which was Mabus's naval background, confidence level in the CO can be more of an afterthought, can't it?
Runner
3/17/2010 2:36 PM
"I think I would rather read Mulligan's posts than Vigilis' load of crap, chip on his shoudler, worthless and unsubstantiated accusations about Academy grads."
How are we supposed to know you ain't Mulligan, jackass?
3/17/2010 2:38 PM
"I think I would rather read Mulligan's posts than Vigilis' load of crap, chip on his shoudler, worthless and unsubstantiated accusations about Academy grads."
How do we know you ain't Mulligan, dude?
3/17/2010 2:42 PM
"I think I would rather read Mulligan's posts than Vigilis' load of crap, chip on his shoudler, worthless and unsubstantiated accusations about Academy grads."
Name one Vigilis accusation about Academy grads", please.
Then, name one that he did not substantiated. Also use a name instead of Anonymous. Unless you are another female USNA grad.
Juan Caruso
3/17/2010 2:47 PM
Juan Caruso, the anonymous you challenged is a USNA grad, and HE also posted under his blogger name above. Check your grammar next time (did not substantiated).
Runner
3/17/2010 2:52 PM
I despair for the future of our navy, especially my beloved Submarine Force. My dad used to shake his head in bewilderment from the stories I told him from my time in (1982-2002). He must be surely turning in his grave today.
Slightly off (the drunken CO) topic...
Just after I retired from the Groom team, a female PO3 Photrog was assigned there. A blonde, blue-eyed little hotty. Not to long after she arrived she started getting all all kinds of accolades. NAMs, JSOQ, etc. Her shit did not stink, and she was the Command Golden Girl. The skinny was she was boffing her boss, a SCPO. This SCPO was just months away from retirement.
Well, they got caught in a classtroom in Nimitz Hall with their pants down. Yes, literally. The SCPO went to Courts Martial and busted to PO1 on the day of (or day before) his retirement date and his retainer was docked to E-6, as well. Ouch.
Somehow, he didn't lose his clearance, though. I ran into him some months later down at the COATS Facility at EB one night, where I was doing crew training. He got hired by one of the other defense contractors, but I don't recall which one.
The girl? Oh, well she got sent away quietly. After all, she did nothing wrong, right?
3/17/2010 3:41 PM
I went to prototype with him. He was, as I remember, a good guy. Obviously, a long time ago...
3/17/2010 4:07 PM
Anon, 3/17/2010 12:34.
I am not sure but you seem like someone’s spousal unit or else you are just a disgruntled whiney Sailor. This might blow your little mind but when the USS Barb scored a hit on a Jap and put them on the bottom, they got to toast their kill. Yes that was WWII and those people were so very old fashioned and un-PC but unlike the fantasy land that you float in, the real world has some very bad people and they do not give a rat’s ass whether you are PC or not. You freely belittle people you really know nothing about and you failed to accurately perceive the comments made and posted your sniveling dribble which such assertion and flair. Get a clue and go get some bon-bons.
3/17/2010 5:51 PM
Anon @ 5:51-
1. You're a moron.
2. You lumped USS BARB toasting a wartime kill in with drunk driving and throwing beer bottles from one car at another? Really? The anon that you went after didn't attack the fine old traditions of the sub force, and he didn't attack our former embrace of alcohol. He went after the dumb stuff that is NOT part of our fine tradition- drunk driving and dumb-f*ckery.
3. I was going to say something about how you missed the point, but I'll just quote you- you captured it nicely: "You freely belittle people you really know nothing about and you failed to accurately perceive the comments made and posted your sniveling dribble which such assertion and flair. Get a clue and go get some bon-bons."
3. You're a moron.
3/17/2010 7:18 PM
And before you get distracted from the real meat of my comment, that last bit should have been:
4. You're a moron.
3/17/2010 7:22 PM
With the exception of his poor numbering, I agree with the previous Anon. Let's not assume that everything we used to do was good just because a lot of it was. It just ain't that black and white, boys. I remember a lot of things that we used to do that I miss in today's sub force. But I also remember a lot of things that I'm glad are no more.
3/17/2010 7:58 PM
@7:22,
It was before MADD, not that that makes anything we did safe or right or good. It was 1980/81 before any kind of crack down on that stuff got serious. Like you I do not condone drunk driving. But back then the lethality of DUI was little understood. Especially by us. We were young and dumb, just like youngsters today, but with less information.
3/17/2010 8:00 PM
And I certainly do not equate anything we did with BARB's tradition of taking a depth charge ration.
3/17/2010 8:02 PM
Abandon ship, men! This tub is going down...let's pray Texas stands up a Naval militia.
Does anyone know if New York still has theirs?
3/17/2010 8:18 PM
I hear you, COB... I'm not passing judgment on the past and I fully appreciate that the lethality of some hijinks wasn't fully understood back then. And it wasn't just the Navy, it was American culture to tie one on and get behind the wheel. But I took issue with lumping that in with the things we should proudly remember like a well-deserved depth charge ration. And I'm not judging excessive enjoyment of alcohol, either. I wish we had more latitude these days to get sloshed because dammit, we deserve to for the rest of the BS we go through. Just get sloshed with a plan to stay out from behind the wheel!
Made me remember something else I meant to say- BZ to the COs today who have the balls to bring non-alcoholic beer onboard while underway for halfway night or some other worthy affair. I know that it is strongly discouraged by the higher-ups as it allegedly promotes alcohol use, and I know that a lot of COs won't do it anymore. Sad state of affairs when even fake beer is too much to accept in today's sub force.
3/17/2010 8:30 PM
Cornell ROTC unit SITREP about unnamed O5. Badness.
3/17/2010 8:43 PM
...and this sitrep says what???
3/17/2010 10:07 PM
And I'm guessing the girls will get their dolphins in record times, or else. The whole point is for men to make the women 'look good' for the public, even if only 30% of the women can ever perfom to real emergency standards.
Only if guys on the deckplates are truly pussies. After being on a boat for a couple of years, it's pretty damn easy, especially as a nuke, to make a checkout take as long a you want.
3/17/2010 11:16 PM
Oh' the SITREP says jack-shit.
He said a bad thing to a female Midn, who then turned him in. Live in the now...we put girls on boats and we're not going to be able to blow tanks to save our damned lives.
That's what he was trying to communicate.
Unless we change our present course, we're gonna be severely fucked.
3/17/2010 11:16 PM
the CO is my best friends dad, i feel that this is a bit extreme to relieve him of his duty, i know him and his family and this is the person i would least expect it out of, so in my opinion he shoulndt of had his sub taken away
3/18/2010 1:46 AM
Weren't his sub...
3/18/2010 4:37 AM
Wonder how much the CO of the Cornell NROTC influenced the decision to rat this guy out?
3/18/2010 4:53 AM
Anonymous at 3/18 1:46 -
I am sorry your friend's dad lost his job. This doesn't mean he is a bad person or a bad father, just that he made a mistake. Sometimes a mistake can be so bad it will change your life. But he can still find a new job and your friend and their family will be okay. Stay friends - you will be thanked someday!
P.S. You are probably too young to be reading this blog.
3/18/2010 5:20 AM
The Cornell NROTC CO is a USNA grad,go figure.
3/18/2010 5:25 AM
Cornell has been rocked by a rash of suicides this year; not unfamiliar territory for military professionals.
3/18/2010 5:44 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/17/education/17cornell.html
Sorry, meant to paste this to my last...
3/18/2010 5:45 AM
I think it kind of matters what he said to the mid. If he said "Hey, I want to fingerbang you in the bathroom" => clearly far out of line.
If he said, "I think putting women on submarines is a mistake because.... 'fairly reasonable answer'", that may be reprimandable, but maybe not relieve him as CO bad...
As usual, the devil is in the details
3/18/2010 6:26 AM
Anonymous 3/18 5:25 said...
The Cornell NROTC CO is a USNA grad,go figure.
..... and a submariner:
http://navy.cornell.edu/CO.html
3/18/2010 7:27 AM
That Cornell dude has a nice bio. Fast Attack Tough!
3/18/2010 8:10 AM
Cornell CO is a really good dude. I have been underway with him and talked with him personally many, many times.
He's retiring soon I think.
3/18/2010 8:14 AM
Just for some context:
As a former Cornell NROTC graduate and submariner, after guest lectures from sub COs the unit would go out in Collegetown for O-Club. It wasn't a drunkfest, it was meant as a social hour to pick the brains of the visiting officers. Anyone of age could drink and we had it every week after drill lab. Also, the CO of Cornell is always a Nuke because a main goal of the program is to make more Nukes. The Navy isn't going to spend $40k+ a year without trying to get the most bang for their buck.
Of course the kneejerk reaction will be to eliminate any fun from these visits because we shouldn't encourage a "drinking culture" in the sub force or navy as a whole. Even if the CHI CO didn't blatently harass this MIDN, perception is reality in today's world so even if he was just "being a submariner" and she took it as harassment then it's harassment. Bottom line, don't act like you're on deployment in front of liberally educated Ivy League females.
3/18/2010 10:13 AM
I can't believe Cima got relieved over expressing his political views about females on subs. It might have been a black mark on him, but obviously both his boss and the ROTC CO agreed that this was bad enough to make a big deal out of.
If the situation was anything other than really severe, the disparity between how this case was handled vs Graf is going to inflame a lot of people.
-
3/18/2010 10:29 AM
Even if the CHI CO didn't blatently (sic) harass this MIDN, perception is reality in today's world so even if he was just "being a submariner" and she took it as harassment then it's harassment. Bottom line, don't act like you're on deployment in front of liberally educated Ivy League females.
BULLSHIT! Under this logic, anyone can be offended by anything. If this was what happened, that bitch won't make one deployment on a boat. She will literally be driven to tears. As for the higher ups who, if what has been tossed about here is true, WHAT A PATHETIC BUNCH OF SPINELESS, DICKLESS, PUSSIES YOU ARE. Each of you, McAneny especially, is in sore need of an ass beating.
That is all.
3/18/2010 10:54 AM
So where was the Skipper's JO during this? If the CO had a perpensity to be a drinker or not, the JO should have been instructed (or taken it upon himself) to ensure the CO wasn't in a position to allow himself to make a drunken proposition.
3/18/2010 11:01 AM
The Admiral, Squadron Commander and CO of the NROTC unit acted like professionals- more than can be said for CDR Cima. He will now have plenty of time to consider his poor decision making.
I must say some of these USNA conspiracy theories are rather hilarious though. You guys need to come to PD more often.
3/18/2010 11:04 AM
I'm sorry, but WHAT????
You're going to say that it was the JOs responsibility to keep a CO out of trouble? Get the f*ck out of here.
Now bear in mind, this is independent of whether the CO actually did anything wrong (I don't know, I wasn't there), but I am NOT going to accept that ANY of this falls on that JO. I'll accept the philosophy that a good XO keeps his CO out of trouble, but that "responsibility" doesn't go any lower than the XO. Ever.
3/18/2010 11:15 AM
1054 anon-
I think the point was that, yes, if unchecked, one's perception that they are being harrassed has been enough to get the "harasser" in trouble.
Sexual harrassment used to be pressure to have sex to keep a job or obtain a better one. In the past 25 years it has morphed into making awoman feel uncomfortable.
20 years ago, in Jax, some fem complained about a non-naked calendar, saying it created a hostile work environment. Employers got very skittish afterward, and when the case was overturned on appeal, nobody heard about it. I remember this costing me my Cindy Crawford calendar in 1989- 90; the price has been higher for others.
-3383
3/18/2010 11:18 AM
Geez this post could use some facts. What did this guy actually do? That first, then the profound comments about the sad state of the world and the injustices visited upon poor, innocent nukes who are good neighbors and kind to small animals. Facts first.
3/18/2010 12:06 PM
The Admiral, Squadron Commander and CO of the NROTC unit acted like professionals- more than can be said for CDR Cima. He will now have plenty of time to consider his poor decision making.
I would agree if Cima propositioned the midn. However, if has been discussed here, she asked his opinion of women on subs and he told her exactly how he felt, REGARDLESS OF WHAT HE SAID, this entire episode is pure BULLSHIT. This is not a positive precursor of what is to become of the ever more effeminate, limp-wristed, fag-friendly sub force of the future.
I did notice that Cornell NROTC took down their gallery. I suppose it might have been too easy to out the offending easily offended dyke in comfortable shoes.
3/18/2010 12:07 PM
"A Chief Petty Officer shall not drink. However, if he should drink he shall not get drunk. If he should get drunk, he shall not stagger. And if he should stagger, he shall not fall. And if he should fall, he will fall in such a manner as to cover up his rank so that passerbyers will think he is an Officer."
3/18/2010 12:17 PM
Maybe he offended a male NROTC student.
Maybe he stuck his crank in someone's ear.
Maybe he dropped a few pubes in someone's frosty cold drink.
As RD said, WHAT DID THIS GUY ACTUALLY DO?
Posts that say shit like this:
"If all he did was xxx, then BLAHDY BLAHDY BLAH BLAH SCREW ALL YOU LIMP WRISTED HOMO LOVING FUCK STICKS"
are a COMPLETE waste of time....until we know what xxx is...after that, they are still stupid posts, but at least they are based on purported fact.
3/18/2010 12:17 PM
*If* this CO got canned on purely PC grounds, then look the fuck out...things are gonna get hot.
As they should. I mean, what otherwise kind of leadership is this...the fucking Politburo?
*If* anti-PC is the reason the CO got popped, I say line up the lawyers, skipper. You'll find them more than happy to sue the living nuts off of the Navy for violating YOUR First Amendment rights (with much et cetera added to that for $$$ purposes).
3/18/2010 12:19 PM
Three cheers (and a cold beer) for the skipper if he issued forth on my quotable regarding women in submarines:
"A bad idea whose time has come."
3/18/2010 12:23 PM
Is there any validity that this was in fact a situation with Cornell?
3/18/2010 1:53 PM
@Anon 1:53:
Yes, and from reliable sources it does not seem to be merely a case of a shared, unpopular opinion.
3/18/2010 2:38 PM
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/03/navy_chicago_skipper_update_031810w/
If this is all that happened, the Navy has gone to hell in a handbasket.
-LT L
3/18/2010 2:43 PM
godammit! I can't believe you guys do ISR missions! Why haven't you figured out what the hell the guy did?!
3/18/2010 2:43 PM
Oh my god. You have got to be kidding me. If that's it, you guys are well and truly screwed...
3/18/2010 2:48 PM
Forget the Navy Times article, it is all hearsay and smoke. Read the SITREP and all will be revealed.
3/18/2010 2:55 PM
Not true. Having read the SITREP, it leaves you far from "all will be revealed."
3/18/2010 3:05 PM
There is an old old principle whereby people watched each others backs and took good care of each other but this bunch of PC assclowns are a disgrace.
The CO was tipsy and the whiney snot nosed NUB students were scared so they called a LT. So why did'nt the LT just get the CO to his lodging and let it be done?
If this is even partially accurate then the Navy is screwed much worse than we can imagine. This pervasive PC bullshit is 100% ignorant.
Now people are not taught to take care of each other but to look out for who they can sell out, what a bunch of losers.
Cornhole University NROTC is certainly a well run unit of PC asskissing jackasses run by a typical USNA grad.
3/18/2010 3:06 PM
A skipper I admired once said to me 'when you're in command, you're on stage all the time.' I've always thought that a wise observation ... and if you show up on stage drunk, need help from JOs of the command you're supposed to be helping, and the report goes back to your boss, well buddy, you've screwed the pooch and you're on your own. On a recruiting trip, for Christ's sake.
Usually when things like this go down for seemingly trivial reasons there's a back-story that doesn't get wide circulation. When the late Connie Stevenson was fired in FINBACK after the Cat Futch incident, it seemed as though Joe Williams, who relieved him of command the same day, was trigger-happy. In fact, Connie had been on SubLant's bozo watch list for quite awhile and this was last-straw, not first problem.
One might well find that Cima was in the shits with his ISIC for awhile and 'can't be trusted on the beach on a recruiting trip' might just have been the 'last straw.'
These decisions are made by submariners, good ones who've had their commands and screened well for higher jobs. They're paid to make tough decisions and would guess this one was. Cut 'em some slack.
3/18/2010 3:07 PM
No, a CDR getting drunk in front of midshipmen is 100% ignorant and was asking to be removed from command.
3/18/2010 3:10 PM
This is indicative of a bunch of peace time mentality ass kissing PC political BS assclowns.
RD, you can sugar coat it all that you want but it is still the same soup sandwich that it smells like.
Cornhole University must be a fine PC outhouse.
3/18/2010 3:13 PM
I have a suggestion. If you're gonna post here, get a handle. This 'anonymous' crap is out of hand. Either pick a name for yourself or piss off.
3/18/2010 3:20 PM
RD, all due respect to someone who did his time and has a qualified opinion from a "been there, done that" perspective...
But that's easy for you to say in a retired status. For those still on active duty, in today's sub force, there is a real fear of being persecuted for an unpopular opinion, even if it isn't just raw mudslinging. What if someone figured out that it was someone on active duty who (gasp) didn't like the idea of females in the sub force? In a public forum? Sounds like grounds for being drummed out by some of the assclowns in charge nowadays...
I don't support the anonymous bickering and name-calling, but I support the ability to post rational opinions with the shelter of anonymity. The KOG would agree, methinks (again, not with the mudslinging)... why doesn't NR wear uniforms, either at NRRO or the home office?
3/18/2010 3:30 PM
It is good to see that Cornhole University is producing such fine young leadership. These shitstains have less leadership ability than a deck seaman from years gone by. The Navy is in good hands. I see why the Marines do not want to be associated with such a bunch of whiney slackers. The Marines really are the Men’s Department in this relationship.
Oh yeah, RD, you can make all the suggestions that you want but your input is neither desired or required.
3/18/2010 3:35 PM
Unclear what protection 'anon' gives one, with traceability of internet addresses etc. And for what it's worth, I published about 50 articles under my real name in Proceedings - while on active duty - on subjects that made some admirals uneasy - with points of view often well outside the official line. Man up.
3/18/2010 3:39 PM
RD,
Free speech is fair game. If someone wants to use any type of coercion to threaten people to toe the party line then that is what lawyers are for and some of them are very good at extracting money from fools.
If you want everyone to be identified then why is your identity unknown? Man up. Leadership by example Duck.
3/18/2010 3:45 PM
This is like watching a cat fight...
3/18/2010 3:51 PM
Ret.Cob,
DO you remember when the Narwhal was submerged pierside when they could not get underway for the storm? That is a pretty cool photo with the FW planes sticking out of the water.
3/18/2010 3:55 PM
THAT IS A GREAT PICTURE!!! I haven't seen that since I worked at SUBLANT. Thanks for the reminder.
3/18/2010 3:56 PM
Ret.Cob,
I knew an old WWII EMCS named Dana Raley who was on the WWII Narwhal in Pearl when the Japanese attacked and he was onboard when the photos were napped of them shooting at Japanese aircraft. He used to be the Georgia State WWII Subvet Commander. Dana passed away around 2005 but he had some very interesting WWII memories.
3/18/2010 4:00 PM
In 1960 all the New London boats were brought into port prior to arrival of Hurricane Donna, moored with as much line as the base warehouses had, and submerged at the piers. Water went a couple feet over the piers and the power plant had to be sandbagged.
I was in the 244-boat. We cycled vents slowly, settled on the bottom, posted two below-decks watches, and Yogi then spliced the main brace.
3/18/2010 4:00 PM
Ret.COB,
My pleasure.
Fossil Fuel Forever DBF
3/18/2010 4:01 PM
RD, after you surfaced from sitting on the bottom, did you have any problem blowing your sea chests?
3/18/2010 4:03 PM
RD - FWIW, I notice you're not posting under your real name now. Just sayin'...
That being said, at least you are an identifiable poster. Spewing slanderous comments and made up "facts" without at least getting a handle - as a few of the folks here have done - is pretty lame.
3/18/2010 4:04 PM
I heard that SR-12 in CT used to be the border for SUBASE and was actually the road that borders the modern lower base. Can anyone confirm this?
3/18/2010 4:05 PM
Duck, you ever staioned at Newport,RI? There are some pretty scenic places on that island.
3/18/2010 4:06 PM
What I remember of the NARWAHL deal was they submerged at the pier when HUGO was approaching Charleston, if I remember right. They survived the ordeal just fine while boomer[s?] further upstream at the Weapons Station were breaking free of their moorings and floating every which way in the river, until it[they] ran aground. One mean freaking storm that.
3/18/2010 4:09 PM
These decisions are made by submariners, good ones who've had their commands and screened well for higher jobs. They're paid to make tough decisions and would guess this one was. Cut 'em some slack.
McAneny: Once an asskissing prick; always an asskissing prick
3/18/2010 4:58 PM
Unclear what protection 'anon' gives one, with traceability of internet addresses etc.
If anyone from Uncle Sam traced mine, they'd damn well better have subpoena, or I'll own their retirement check.
3/18/2010 5:02 PM
"RD, after you surfaced from sitting on the bottom, did you have any problem blowing your sea chests?"
No, no difficulties after surfacing. We were north side Pier Ten, NAUTILUS south side.
3/18/2010 5:18 PM
Navy Times has an updated story including some details of what happened to get him relieved. http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/03/navy_chicago_skipper_update_031810w/
3/18/2010 5:23 PM
Ducky,
You need to write a book on your exploits as a Bubblehead throughout the decades. I believe we'd learn a thing or two in this generation.
3/18/2010 5:36 PM
It appears that the modern force eats its own.
3/18/2010 5:36 PM
All the negative comments...for what?
Look on the bright side, there is a new opening for a CO. Sure someone had to fall, but so what? He will live and the world will still turn.
3/18/2010 5:40 PM
Wow. Just wow. Man I hope you aren't a submariner.
3/18/2010 5:46 PM
Current COMSUBPAC = NROTC
Current CSS-3 = OCS
Can we give the USNA conspiracy theory a rest please?
3/18/2010 5:47 PM
Ok, sounds excessive based on the Navy Times, but no one has posted a better version.
BT BT
For all of you who think USNA grads will somehow support women on subs and therefore we will see more non-USNA grads fired----YOU ARE IDIOTS. Pls STFU and get a clue. You are really quite stupid.
3/18/2010 5:47 PM
Sad how easy some will sacrifice a human on the alter of the PC god.
3/18/2010 5:47 PM
Narwhal was in the channel near the base during HUGO, not moored.
Up at the weapons station, the training barges broke free of the moorings, the 1 MTS that was there at the time, 635, just sat there and most definitely did not break free. The training barge, on the other hand, ended up in the Admiral's back yard.
3/18/2010 5:51 PM
"Unclear what protection 'anon' gives one, with traceability of internet addresses etc. And for what it's worth, I published about 50 articles under my real name in Proceedings - while on active duty - on subjects that made some admirals uneasy - with points of view often well outside the official line. Man up."
I'll tell you what protection it offers. My boss' boss reads this blog - clear enough? He probably wouldn't bother with an ip search & trace on an anon post - but if I signed "Joe Schmuckatelli - SSN Underway" & he easily put 2+2 together you can bet that an op/ed post I wrote here could cause me some trouble professionally.
That's why I just use the Name/URL to put a relatively generic (but easy to identify) handle (that doesn't trace to an e-mail) on my posts. Once I retire I'll have no problems using my full real name instead of something like a bath toy for a handle.
FWIW, Proceedings articles are hardly in the same category as comments on this blog. I respect alot of what you say, but this particular case we're commenting about is a shining example of how acts in public (whether comments on a public blog or beers at a pizza place) can ruin a professional career if perceived the wrong way.
This same event w/ CDR Cima if handled a different way would have been a non-issue. While most of the ~responsible~ comments here are to my vision a non-issue, I may not be using the same prescription as my boss' boss - so precaution is warranted.
3/18/2010 5:59 PM
USS NARWHAL sustains minor damage during Hurricane Hugo while submerged at the Charleston Naval Base. The submarine was moored with nine double wires and two three-inch ship's lines, all but one of which were ripped loose during the first half of the storm. During the eye of the storm, the captain discovered the submarine had drifted to the center of the Cooper River. Tugboats and the NARWHAL crew unsuccessfully tried to move the submarine back to the pier. As the storm began again, the captain submerged the submarine in the river and the NARWHAL rode out the remainder of the hurricane with only part of its conning tower exposed.
3/18/2010 6:01 PM
USS NARWHAL sustains minor damage during Hurricane Hugo while submerged at the Charleston Naval Base. The submarine was moored with nine double wires and two three-inch ship's lines, all but one of which were ripped loose during the first half of the storm. During the eye of the storm, the captain discovered the submarine had drifted to the center of the Cooper River. Tugboats and the NARWHAL crew unsuccessfully tried to move the submarine back to the pier. As the storm began again, the captain submerged the submarine in the river and the NARWHAL rode out the remainder of the hurricane with only part of its conning tower exposed.
3/18/2010 6:04 PM
For AD folks that is a safe approach.
3/18/2010 6:19 PM
Ducky,
You need to write a book on your exploits as a Bubblehead throughout the decades. I believe we'd learn a thing or two in this generation.
I agree. Although I probably disagree with RD about 70% of the time, I do enjoy his tales - and am always impressed with the level of detail in the recall.
3/18/2010 6:30 PM
RD does have some interesting background knowledge. He better write a book before the old timer bug gets him.
3/18/2010 6:55 PM
Up at the weapons station, the training barges broke free of the moorings, the 1 MTS that was there at the time, 635, just sat there and most definitely did not break free. The training barge, on the other hand, ended up in the Admiral's back yard.
Yep, the IX-516 broke the single line mooring it to the center of the river right after the eye of hurricane Hugo passed over....we got it back like a week later, somewhat worse for the wear. Good times!
3/18/2010 7:19 PM
How long did it take to clean up the base in Charleston after Hugo? Did the Air Force base sustain any physical damage?
3/18/2010 7:21 PM
Back in the day at USNA there was a catchall offense - "Good judgement, failure to exercise". That appears to be what happened in this case if the Navy Times update is correct. A CO visiting an NROTC unit is on display. A contemporary skipper of mine was relieved of his command in the early eighties when he was "drunk and disorderly" with his crew in a shipyard. I suspect there was more to it than that but,in any case, this former hot runner was shelved without anyone batting an eye. He retired quietly as a Commander. I suspect the same will occur with CDR CIMA. It is unfortunate that today is an era of 24/7/365 news cycle where everything is spread to the world by blogs, twitter, facebook, etc. In the eighties, when something like this happened, only the immediate command and a few ships in the squadron that happened to be in port at the time knew of the incident unless CSL or CSP put out a "Recently a ship of this force...." message. Times have certainly changed. I do know of COs and XOs who did worse in foreign ports in the sixties and seventies with no negative feedback because the crew said nothing and the culture was different. I, personally, think the clean and sober culture is much better than the culture that existed when I reported to my first sub and the wardroom and chiefs quarters would leave the ship at 1100 on Friday for "lunch" and not return until some time on Saturday, if then.
3/18/2010 7:25 PM
Cornhole University, good job with the school yard comment with the associated diatribe of profanity. Yes, Cornell is a liberal school and isn't it apparently obvious that our whole higher educational system is run by 1960's burnouts and their followers?
And I wonder how my classmates serving in Iraq and Afghanistan feel about being called SPINELESS; or shipmates who've been fired upon by pirates off of Africa; or those who have died in service to their country. Why don't you look up the military history of an institution who sent more officers to WWI than West Point and has had military training continously since 1865. Wake up.
The CO and JO got stupid drunk and he made a comment to a MIDN with a not so stellar rep and she told on him. Personally, yes we have all gotten too PC and sensitive and this is another example of a female ruining it for the women that actually can function just fine with men. And the CO was a 41 year old man getting wasted with college kids, I could see no problem ever occuring from that.
3/18/2010 8:02 PM
The CO and JO got stupid drunk and he made a comment to a MIDN with a not so stellar rep and she told on him. Personally, yes we have all gotten too PC and sensitive and this is another example of a female ruining it for the women that actually can function just fine with men.
You just lost the argument of attempting to rescue Cornell's rep.
CORNHOLE U, it is!!!
BTW, why was CORNHOLE U's NROTC gallery taken down?
3/18/2010 8:12 PM
Now Cornhole U. is a bastion of military tradition. Next some moron will list them as producing more superior leaders than the Citadel and VMI.
3/18/2010 8:17 PM
Cornhole U. took down their hit parade? Perhaps madame bimbo was shining her pearly whites for the camera.
Cornhole U. it is.
Oh yeah, the whiney Cornhole U fan should remember that NUBS have nothing important to add. Junior you do not get respect just because you attend Cornhole U. If someone told you that then they lied to you.
Maybe Capt. Bligh would be a good addition to Cornhole U. training staff? That would be too funny, the kiddies would be crying with her eloquent use of the King's English.
3/18/2010 8:24 PM
Cornhole U. Flash traffic. Cornhole U. Grads are leading running gun battles with pirates in zodiacs. Scuttle has it that the Cornhole U. grads are keeping up with the fine tradition of Cornhole U.and filing written complaints against the locals. The pirates report that the Cornhole U. Grads display the worst case of pussification seen since WWI. The pirates do like the designer diapers sported by the stellar Cornhole U. grads.
3/18/2010 8:31 PM
And these are the times that I lose interest in this blog... sorry, Joel.
Why can't we all just get along?
3/18/2010 8:45 PM
And these are the times that I lose interest in this blog... sorry, Joel.
Why can't we all just get along?
Quite possibly because approximately half of the population was stupid enough to vote in the loser poseur sitting in the White House. I would guess some of those same idiots are reading and posting here.
3/18/2010 9:00 PM
As a former 721 sailor who worked with him, I'd say he was one of the better COs to have served.
If USNA is the scapegoat for some of these decisions, let's not discount any current poor decision that hasn't been caught yet by: prior-enlisteds, ROTC grads, NUPOCs, NECPs, OCSers, etc... I guarantee there's a piece of shit in every category, but I guarantee there are plenty of excellent officers that came from there as well.
And you armchair warriors who sit in the dugout and never did anything good with your career can shut it. At least he made it to CO.
3/18/2010 9:12 PM
Reminds me of a CO I had on a boat in Pearl. He had 4 DUI's and couldn't drive so much as a moped in Pearl Harbor. Funny thing; after leaving our fast boat, and going to shore duty for 3 years as Commodore, they gave him the keys to a Trident for his last tour.
Times have certainly changed...
3/18/2010 9:20 PM
Times certainly have changed. Now the top notch Cornhole U. gang with their diapers, gameboys, bed wetting and baby bottles have moved the example of POS to a new level. They have set the bar for POS so high that reaching it will take a lot of effort. Stress cards were cancelled long ago but the Cornholers have their own, “anal stress cards” to be used anytime they fail to think on their own feet and get scared of the big bad unknown.
3/18/2010 9:46 PM
This thread is getting out of hand. It has gotten into a Cornell smashing, poke each other in the eye fest. I came here to read some constructive thought on what happened with CDR Cima. In any case, Joel I think you need to close comments on this one.
@ducky: I agree. Get a tag or don't comment. I'm AD and I say what I feel is necessary within reason of what it appropriate. For those AD out there hiding behind anon so they can say what pleases them... learn your role and get some professionalism. If you shouldn't say it if we know who you are, you shouldn't say it as anon either.
Also... comments without facts or solid information are useless.
---
MM1/SS
3/19/2010 2:35 AM
Rudder Amidships, maybe you should change your name to Loss of Steerageway? You deserve this fine crop of soon to be grads from Cornhole U. The modern PC environment is obviously producing the low quality of Cornhole U.’s babies and babysitters. I just hope that you never have to deal with real challenges because the PC BS will not withstand any real stress and challenges. By challenges I mean when bold immediate actions and battleshort are required. Stay safe and if you are looking for factual information maybe you should check the inboard stall for the latest scuttle.
3/19/2010 5:49 AM
To and more confusion to the debate....Cornell 77-Temple 68 NCAA first round:)
3/19/2010 6:00 AM
Rudder Adrift,
Actually you do not deserve the weak assed leadership evidenced by Cornhole U’s kiddies and babysitters but the modern political military culture has apparently deemed that PC is more important than taking good care of each other. You actually deserve the best leadership available but you likely will only experience the PC brand of modern micro-management. Remember, follow the PC script, sell out your shipmates at every opportunity and be as self-serving as you can because you really do not need other people. It is all about you and not your teammates. When the crap hits the fan, just grab your PC pony and ride it away from danger and everything will be ok.
3/19/2010 6:47 AM
"18. MEDIA INTEREST: NOT ANTICIPATED"
Woops. They misjudged that one.
3/19/2010 7:18 AM
Why would they have sent a SITREP if they didn't anticipate media interest?
3/19/2010 7:21 AM
7:21 Anon: For the very same reason that this C.O. appears to have been sacrificed.
It's spelled: C Y A
3/19/2010 7:27 AM
The PC crowd is all about CYA. Self-serving, narcissistic and selfish little bastards. “How will this make me look?” As compared to. “How can I take good care of someone?” “Lets’ screw anyone who makes us look bad.” As long as when the dust settles the PC cronies are intact and marching upward then the debris along the way are just inconsequential, collateral damage and unintended consequences. CYA means use everyone as stepping stone for personal and selfish gain.
3/19/2010 7:35 AM
Question was rhetorical. The only reason they should have sent a sitrep was because they anticipated media interest. Otherwise, take care of the situation in house.
3/19/2010 7:37 AM
"[T]he 1 MTS that was there [Weapon's Station] at the time [of hurricane Hugo], 635, just sat there and most definitely did not break free."
I forgot the MTS was there that long ago. I was in MGV when Hugo hit. We had gotten underway from St. Mary's just in case Hugo took an unexpected left turn, but the real surprise was when we were returning to KB and the OOD spotted an unexpected bouy. QMC took the scope and verified we had found 2C. It has apparently been ripped from its moorings and drifted all that way south.
It was also surreal when we pulled into Chas. in December after patrol, as it was just after a freak snowstorm. I'll never forget seeing sailboats covered with snow sitting in peoples' backyards on Sullivan's Island.
3/19/2010 7:54 AM
Notice the stark comparison of William Shakespeare’s St. Crispin's Day Speech and today’s PC coward culture.
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by, From this day to the ending of the world, But we in it shall be remembered-We few, we happy few, WE BAND OF BROTHERS; For he to-day that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother.
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, WE BAND OF PC COWARD BACKSTABBERS; For he to-day that makes me look bad shall be expeditiously sacrificed so that I may look good and remain eligible for promotions and BZs.
3/19/2010 8:05 AM
I have a contact at SUBFOR and one thing not being reported (at least not in any press releases that I have seen) is that the former CO "groped" a female midshipman. This would certainly help explain the apparent disparity between the offense and the punishment.
3/19/2010 8:29 AM
@anon 8:29- You are correct. As someone "in the know" there is much more to this story than has been reported. Perhaps some of the idiots writing in on this blog do not realize that the "PC" patrol are actually trying to protect CDR Cima and his family from undue embarrassment rather than trying to stab a slightly inebriated CO in the back.
3/19/2010 8:53 AM
Well who knows? If there was a “grope” then certainly the boot is very congruent. However, this sounds like a very convenient cover story for the typical status quo asinine CYA piss-poor judgment by the babysitters and adult supervision. This brings up a question about why was Capt. Bligh allowed to put her hands on real Sailors for two tours? Where was Bligh’s adult supervision?
3/19/2010 8:54 AM
Looking through all this vitriol is too tough. Is there actual hard evidence to was said/done to get CDR. Cima fired?
Or, are people tying it to women on subs, because that is what happens to have everyone's panties in a bunch? Has women submariners been a big deal for Australia?
3/19/2010 8:58 AM
And you armchair warriors who sit in the dugout and never did anything good with your career can shut it. At least he made it to CO.
Well, I guess I should shut it since I ended my career at six and out. I did parlay my enlisted nuke training into a BS and a nice six figure salary, but I guess that ain't jack. Oh well, I'll keep cashing those bonus checks.
3/19/2010 9:03 AM
This is yet another example of an outdated mode of trying to control information. The age of controlling information is past us. It did not work with Abu Grahib, Walter Reed, the death of Pat Gilman, and so on.
There needs to a major shift in the way people think about communicating. Much of the diatribe on here would not exist if the Navy, and parties involved, just came out with all of the facts up front.
3/19/2010 9:13 AM
Or, are people tying it to women on subs, because that is what happens to have everyone's panties in a bunch? Has women submariners been a big deal for Australia?
Considering that they go to sea almost never and stay at sea for a day at a time, no it hasn't been a problem except that they can't recruit enough personnel to keep any of their boats at sea. But no, no problems there.
3/19/2010 9:14 AM
The Aussies, there is a tough sea going bunch. The Brits and Aussies are wet Navy's and maybe the U.S. Navy will consider allowing alcohol along with the pole smokers and any other social engineering BS that comes along. A beer and a pole, its sounds like an Aussie meal.
3/19/2010 9:26 AM
Anon at 3/18/2010 9:20 PM
I think I know who you are tlaking about. Was he CO of 682 in mid to late 80s?
Who I am thinking about is the time I met him after he left the boat complaining he could drive a nuclear powered sub, but couldn't drive his car, because of his DUIs.
STSCS(SS/SW) USN RET
3/19/2010 9:57 AM
The Tunny fish. Dive Dive.
3/19/2010 10:20 AM
Thanks for the attacks. My point was not that we need to embrace a PC Navy. It was that the thread was getting out of hand with mostly speculation.
The other thing I was trying to say is that if you want to say something non pc, that's cool... just be willing to back it up and say "Hey! I said that!"
In any case...I should have expected that it would get read into differently than I meant it.
On topic, if he actually did "grope" a middie... I see why they went where they did on the firing.
---
MM1/SS
3/19/2010 10:22 AM
Typical thread evolution unfortunately. This CO was fired because:
-Obama is president
-those who voted for Obama are all gutless liberals
-a secret Naval Academy cabal to take over the Navy
The need to stereotype anyone who disagrees with an opinion, the need to label entire colleges based on an action for which it would seem most people writing do not have all the facts reflects what "discussion" has devolved to these days. it is no wonder that there is precious little governing being done because everything reflects what almost every thread on this blog eventually becomes.
Rational and civil discourse is hard to find these days.
3/19/2010 10:27 AM
Anon at 9:13 AM:
I know it can be frustrating when we don't get the whole story and we feel we should. However, please keep in mind that there are specific rules governing the release of personal information by the government. I've served on a few major staffs in my career, and I can tell you that they can't just ditch people's privacy rights out of convenience. Public figures, such as CDR Cima in his former position as CO, have less privacy than private figures. Hence why we know virtually nothing about the LTJG that was with him, or anyone else connected with this story. Having seen some cases similar to this, I have to believe that 1: there is a back story involving other people, and 2: it is their privacy rights that are limiting what the Navy is saying. We may never know the full story, but "conduct unbecoming" covers a lot of ground. Have a little faith in your leadership men. I don't think they'd have relieved him if they didn't absolutely have to.
3/19/2010 1:00 PM
This comment has been removed by the author.
3/19/2010 1:03 PM
friendly persuasion:
You forgot:
- it's the gays' fault.
- women on submarines will end life as we know it
3/19/2010 1:04 PM
Rubber Ducky,
You forget the drama of the young gays competeing with the females for others affections? This could be a type of drama. Also, the jealousy of clothing styles might be an issue.
If it gets to difficult to keep the drama under wraps maybe the Navy will just have to order a Unisex orientation, lol.
Just kidding of course but I am sure that like Murphy's Law, if it can get convoluted then it will.
Kirk
3/19/2010 1:34 PM
RD, you also forgot:
-and old-timers chime in with "how it used to be"
:)
3/19/2010 1:36 PM
As a wise sailor once said, 'it wasn't like this in the good old days ... and it never was.'
3/19/2010 1:56 PM
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