Keeping the blogosphere posted on the goings on of the world of submarines since late 2004... and mocking and belittling general foolishness wherever it may be found. Idaho's first and foremost submarine blog. (If you don't like something on this blog, please E-mail me; don't call me at home.)

Saturday, July 10, 2010

Military Justice

I've been on a jury for the last 10 days, of which I ended up being the foreman. It was an instructive and sobering experience; quite a few tears were shed during deliberations. (I did learn that the urban legend is true -- ambulances can trip traffic lights in their direction. I also learned that there are still people who use MySpace.)

As I was sitting through hours of chain-of-custody evidence on the forensics, I started thinking about the differences between civilian and military justice. I've heard that military justice actually does a better job of finding the "truth" (whether a person actually did the thing they are accused of doing) at the expense of some rights for the defendant that have evolved over the years in civilian courts. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but I suspect it might be.

I was lucky enough never to have to face military justice during my time in the Navy, but I did attend several Masts as part of the chain of command of the accused, and served on a couple AdSep Boards. My most memorable story involved, as usual, the good ship Topeka during our '92-'93 deployment. While we were on a Mission Vital To National Security, we were allowed to grow beards. The caveat was that if you had to be in the Wardroom during a Captain's Mast, you had to appear clean-shaven (this applied to the defendant's whole chain of command). As a result, none of the Department Heads got all the way through the Mission with a full beard; I was lucky enough to miss out on that. Our XO, even though he went to every mast, still ended up with a full beard several times; he was one of those people who could grow a functional beard in about 5 days. (Off topic, we ended up shaving the letters "XO" into his back when we did our Shellback Ceremony that deployment.)

Anybody have any good stories about the military justice system?


Blogger Comrade Misfit said...

I've been to a Captain's Mast where the CO, XO, CMC and DH had just gotten back from a diplomatic luncheon ashore with the mayor of an Italian town during a port visit.

They were all noticeably intoxicated. It was pretty entertaining, except for the poor frocked MM2, which came away a MMFN (along with the traditional (50% of pay for 2 months, 45 days' restriction and extra duty).

7/10/2010 10:37 AM

Anonymous YNC(SS), USN, Retired said...

Twenty-seven years seven months experience speaking here. Skimmer 14 years, submarine 13-1/2 years. Legal Clerk and Closed Microphone Court Reporter, et al. Just an observation without supporting numbers, shows me that in most cases in military justice; NJP or Courts Martial is based on "smoking gun" evidence. That is, the offender did it, was seen doing it, or was not there when he/she was supposed to be.

7/10/2010 10:54 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Back in the day, I spent eight years on three different boats and can't remember a single mast. Hard to imagine how much has changed.

7/10/2010 11:24 AM

Blogger DDM said...

I had a student who was involved with the gang bang of a drunk, underage local girl. There were 3 Sailors involved, but this one guy stood out. Over a 2-3 hour period: First he did her in the club, then he did her in the car, then he did her in the shower, then he did her again after two others had her. At the XOI we were red-faced listening to this guy re-tell his story. After the XOI granted him NJP and the Sailor left the room, the XO said, "I didn't know whether to send this guy to mast or give him a trophy!"

This same XO later had to apologize to all the staff for making two students strip down during XOI. They had gotten arrested for streaking across Orlando International Airport Runway. The XO basically said, "Since you guys seem to like during things naked, let's see you do XOI naked".

7/10/2010 1:10 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting. I've been a registered voter since 1976, and have never been called for jury duty once. Where I live, middle-aged homeowners aren't favorites of lawyers taking their clients to jury trials (and am blessed to live in area without many felony cases that go to trials..)

Dodged many NJP (and possibly worse) bullets during my first enlistment. Good technician, but a classic ETOH-fueled liberty risk. To make a long story short, my luck ran out in the final months of my first enlistment. I had recently starting getting paid as a 2nd class. I was the first NJP of a new CO (O-6) after a change of command. All I could think of during the mast was "please don't bust me". After the statements of the participants (including the glowing reports on my technical competence from the DIVOFF and DIV CPO), the first words out of the skipper's mouth were these:
"I'm gonna bust ya..."
He was big enough to suspend it, I was smart enough to recognize the break I'd caught.
29 years ago this month. Haven't had anything to drink since either. Amazingly,no more NJP, no more hangovers either. Ran into that CO --who was selling high end nautical antiques after his retirement-- about 14 years after that, when I was a CWO. We had a good laugh once we connected the dots and figured out who each other was.

7/10/2010 3:02 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't recall a Captain's Mast on the boat(s) I was on in the four years at sea. I did participate in a Mast at Nuke School in Orlando as a witness. An officer wasn't cutting it in school (and sometimes cutting school). Since I was near the back and end of the row, I collected homework. Thus, on a particular day the officer was absent and was busted for it. I had to testify about picking up the homework, or lack thereof, from the officer. They busted him out of Nuke School.

The only other related item was a first class that ended up crashing into a gal going to work. He was heading home after a very late night bender. She was heading to work that morning. I sat in as a witness during another officer's interogation of him. The civilians had the first crack at him ... I think he spent time in prison.

7/10/2010 6:11 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

My 1st boat there were a few Masts, but nothing beyond the garden-variety sleeping-on-watch/UA/failure-to-obey-a-lawful-order/drug bust/tagout-screwups. One of those involved propulsion systems, resulting in a nuke getting denuked, busted to E-2 (he was already an MMFN from a previous UA bust), and a DD when we RTP'ed.

There was one especially memorable story where on of our NAVETs was playing house with the wife of a guy on another boat. The egreged husband found out, and complained to his command, who complained to my command (GROUP 2 was NOT happy). So, there had to be a Mast, no way around it.

The result? The Skipper gave the ET a 1-month suspended bust (it was all we had left of off-crew before fly away), a $50 fine, and a verbal order to stay away from the guys wife.

So, why was the Skipper so lenient, when it was such a "high profile" case you might ask? Well, it seems our skipper had just been through a divorce for a bit of dalliance himself. ;D

On the PA, our Skipper (a full bird and 3rd CO tour) would take you to Mast at the drop of a hat. One guy who kept bouncing checks was put in the brig on 3 days bread and water. One of our top PO1s, a shoe-in for Chief that year, was busted for sending his guys home after they finished a school on Friday, instead of telling them to come back to the offcrew for the rest of the afternoon. Yes, off-crew was in full operation on a FRIDAY with this guy.

The FTG1 stretched the truth a bit when he told the command they were in school, when he knew they had finished and went home so they wouldn't be tortured. FTG1 was busted to E-5, and sent to the other crew , who had the boat in Refit, for the rest of our off-crew cycle. At the mast, his chief sold him out because everybody in the Goat locker was afraid of the Skipper. FTG1 was also awarded to conduct training to the crew on the definition of "quibbling" (telling a half-truth or misrepresenting the truth - I still remember...), which included giving each of us a little card with the definition on it, and we each had to initial his training completion form. The skipper made sure this guy was as humiliated as possible.

Fortunately, FTG1 was reinstated to E6 6 months later, and in 5 years, he was SOY/IOY at TTF KB, and made Chief. We served together again on the RI, and he was one of the finest Chiefs I've ever served with.

7/10/2010 7:21 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

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7/10/2010 7:22 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

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7/10/2010 7:22 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

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7/10/2010 7:22 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I had to testify at a Court Martial for some dumb NPTU kids who got involved in some bad shit, resulting in one suicide, in '04. Five months of busting my ass to qualify EOOW early only to have to reschedule my board two weeks later.

7/11/2010 3:41 AM

Anonymous laughter_in_manslaughter said...

Had an EM2 who wrote a bad tag, and a week later wrote a second bad tag. So the Eng tells him, "Your disqualed pending upgrade." What does this dumbass say? "I didn't write that tag, someone signed into my SOMS and signed my name."
They go look in the history, and the LAN admin proves that he was signed into the E-div computer while he was on watch as AEA. He spent two months trying to fight it. They finally send him up, and he immediately goes, "I want court martial."
Our captain, normally a completely chill guy, proceeds to go apeshit on him, screaming, "You've wasted two f**kin months of people's times! Be a F**kin man and take some damn personaly responsibility. Request F**kin denied and let the record show I say not just no, but HELL NO!"

7/11/2010 7:58 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I remember this one time, on deployment, when my whole divsion went to mast. True story...

7/11/2010 8:02 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon.@ 8:02
Come on tell us !!!! This has got to be good.


7/11/2010 11:24 AM

Blogger Henson said...

Had a nuc on our 2002 westpac who got masted because he refused to crank any more. Just laid there in his damned torpedo room rack like a passenger.

CO de-nuced him, busted him to E-2, and confined him to the torpedo room valve station under "suicide watch" by the TMOW until we could drop his sorry ass off in Diego Garcia, never to be seen again.

Then there was the guy who got fined "$300 per lie." Same CO. My chief dragged me into the mast as a witness because I just happened to be in middle level at the time. CDR Dean Richter, loved that guy. The victim, an E-5 radioman, got masted twice in three months and went from E-5 to E-3. Had to change barracks and everything. He had a habit of blatantly gaffing tagouts and PMS, then lying about it once caught red-handed.

7/11/2010 10:15 PM

Blogger MT1(SS)WidgetHead said...

Someone is always watching rather you know it or not. If you inadvertently fuck up, just admit to it. That way, we can address the issue and we'll have no further difficulties (in most cases). If you try and bullshit your way out of the given situation, it will hurt that much worse in the long run.

Those are the simple thoughts I tell my guys WHEN it's their individual time to assume the position and possibly sustain a whippin'.

Just don't attempt to lie about shit when you know you fucked up in short order, and you'll live that much happier throughout life.

I call this the more common sense side of military justice. That's if there is such a concept in existence.

7/11/2010 11:26 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd like to note that not many people outside of the submarine service could spin a topif from "I've got jury duty" to "I shaved my XO's back."

Good Job.


7/12/2010 10:19 AM

Anonymous pc assclown said...

My only mast was an XO's mast when I was enlisted for getting a "speeding ticket" for needing a haircut. This was back in the day when chiefs would inspect the enlisted as they drove through the subbase gates. Cost me $25.00. The XO that gave me the mast and 25 dollar fine was a filthy stinking piece of trash. He would go weeks w/o a shower. I should have been able to fine him $25 for being such a pig.

The stupidest mast happened to a very short timer nuke MM1. We had completed turnover to the goldies and were ready to leave the boat in Holy Loch. The same filthy XO ordered a bag inspection as our flight bags were being loaded aboard the water taxi. The MM1's bag was found to contain a couple of small hose clamps. The MM1 was written up and the whole crew sat for several hours while he went to Captain's Mast. He got busted to MM2 and probably lost some pay, all over a couple of 29 cent hose clamps.

7/12/2010 1:54 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

{One guy who kept bouncing checks was put in the brig on 3 days bread and water. }

While the CO sounds like an ass-clown, if the bread and water worked for check bouncer, it probably kept him out of jail later. Did him a favor.

7/12/2010 3:25 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

My last CO'S Mast was in 1965 on SSBN 619B. We had a party in the barracks at Charleston NS. Morning we flew out the new Commodore of SubGru 6 walked through our barracks and went nuts. We had not dumped the shitcans and they were full of beer cans, whiskey bottles, etc. We hadn't trashed the place because the gold crew lived there also, just hadn't dumped the trash. Anyway turns out the Commodore is a teetotaler and a religious guy. Gets the SubGru photographer, takes photo's gets everyones names living in the cubicles and writes a personal to our skipper Al Whittle Jr. telling him he wants some heads to roll.

Ends up there were 28 of us went to mast. We were lined up in the passage way in dress blues and went in in groups of four. First four in and out in under three minutes, charges dismissed. and so it went. My cubicle mates and I were the senior guys. we were all first class. Two MM's, an EM and me a TM. We go into the wardroom when it was our turn and line up in front of the green table. Skipper says, "one of you guys is gonna have to take the hit." They look at me, I look at them, skipper says, "PO so and so it's you", and dismissed charges against the MM's and EM. I got my ass chewed and was awarded 10 days restriction. Next day XO says he wants to see me. go to his state room and he reads me all the stuff in the Manual of Court Martial about right of appeal then asks me what I want to do. I tell him, "a hell, I don't want to appeal, I'll just do my time." XO says, "Glad to hear you say that serve the rest of your restriction out on your duty nights." End of the story was, our skipper knew the deal about the new Commodore and told our XO upon arrival in Rota, "I don't care what you do, I don't want to know how you do it, just get the single guys out of Charleston during first month Stand down." My last four patrols on the 619B got 30 days leave after every patrol with orders to get out of Charleston. 30 days annual and 30 days basket from then on for single guys.

Keep a zero bubble..............


7/12/2010 4:16 PM

Anonymous 3383 said...

A topsider (cruiser non-nuc) picked a pair of olive green batteries that had failed their PMS check, tried them in his Walkman, and used them for a while. Busted for misappropriation of government property.

Although few get off with military justice, the biggest flaw is how the same actions are overlooked, glossed over, or covered up for preferred subordinates or certain positions. Once a sailor/ Marine/ soldier/ chair forcer is aboard the Military Justice train, they are very likely to et screwed.

7/12/2010 5:14 PM

Anonymous ret.cob said...


7/12/2010 7:15 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

A topsider (cruiser non-nuc) picked a pair of olive green batteries that had failed their PMS check, tried them in his Walkman, and used them for a while. Busted for misappropriation of government property.

Damn! And I STILL have an OD green canvas bag full of tools stenciled E Div in the back of my truck. I'm the only one in the division who didn't depart with the customary E Div FTN gift - a current model Fluke. Of course, I did walk away with my custom built wet suit that, for some asinine reason, the USN felt that they were entitled to upon my discharge. Good thing that page disappeared from my personnel file.

7/12/2010 9:42 PM

Anonymous Ex Anav/COB said...

I will set the stage; 1980, USS Spadefish, Norflok, VA, Oct 29 (few days before Halloween and a few days before a mission of vital importance a.k.a specop. CO, Cdr Mario P Fiori had the crew dress out in Salt and peppers, stuck the 669 hull numbers to the side of the sail and had a tender photographer on the o-god level of the tender take a crews picture. Just as the photographer was going to snap the pic, I slipped on a full head mask (green face with a bolt in the neck and a dagger sticking out of the other side) put my combo cap back on and stood there as proud as could be. BTW, my buddy replaced his had with a Long John Silver pirates hat. Fast forward a few days...maneuvering watch is set, the XO comes running back onboard with the pictures in hand. The plan was to distribute them while u/w. Just prior to testing the main engins inthe ahead and astern direstion putting no way on the ship, I hear a scream from the CO cabin "G** Damn it XO get in here". I new exactly what the issue was. Maneuvering watch secured, CO ordered a sailing list from the day of the picture. He and the XO sat there w/a magnifying glass trying to ID everyone inthe pic to figure who the two clowns were. Couldn't do it, next best thing, ID all the guys around who were laughing. One-by-one thy were called to the COSR and questioned. The question went like this; tell me who that is or you are going to mast. Short story, 14 witness statements by the end of the day. NJP Art 134; improper wearing of a uniform during an offical ships picture. Result $50/month x 2 months. My buddy, he xfered to Bangor. Repor tchit followed. Received by Bangor, laughed at it, tossed it and gave the pic to my buddy. On a side note I was a QM1 at the time and still made Chief in 8.5 years. How times have changed. Todays unforgiving Navy, that would have been a death sentence. Away the moral supression team!

7/13/2010 5:10 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was a singel E6 Army tanker 12 years in the Army Desert Storm Vet I was in the Advanced NCO course at Fort Knox and got pulled over by the MP's for a Hollywood stop. I refused a breathalyzer but told them to take me to the Hospital and draw my blood. I'd had a few beers and a little to eat but weighed in a 210lbs.

Eventually went to the Hospital where blood was drawn.

Next day told I was being busted and booted.

Next day told the blood sample had been dropped and destroyed.

Told I was gettin busted anyway.

Missed a formation and was dropped from the course.

Fired from my Instructor job.

Given a local Bar to Reenlistment.

My Mother sent a letter to Prez Clinton.

Next day the Bar got lifted.

Things were quiet for a while, I got married, adopted 2 girls 4 and 6, had my own daughter.

Went back to the advance course, graduated.

PCS to Korea.

3 weeks later got notified I was under QMP by DA for "Being apprehended my Military Police for Drunk Driving."

Sent up my appeal, pointed out the blood had been lost, my record since clean.

Waited 8 months to be informed my appeal had been denied.

CO(03) had recommended I be allowed to stay in.

BC (05)had recommended I be allowed to stay in.

BDE CO (0-6) Wanted me to be allowed to retire.

Butt... General Tommy Franks of OIF fame, held the paperwork for 30 days and recommended dissapproval

I was kicked out, involuntary Honorable Discharge.

15 years and 2 months Active duty.

2 years later I got a lawyers sent aappeal to the Board of Corrections Military Records.

Was told appeal denied, that the statement the MP's wrote clearly stated I was apprehended for Drunk Driving, also the Blood Sample being dropped was a "nonfactor" becuse it was "Command Directed" as soon as I refused the Breathalyzer.

Military Justice, I 've seen a lot of guys get away with a lot more than that and be allowed to retire.

Kicked out on the street after 15 years, a wife and 3 kids, the youngest 2 years old.

7/14/2010 4:15 PM

Anonymous Say what? said...

Suck it the fuck up, Army dude. Were you drunk driving, or not?

My read on this is that you were drunk driving, and are trying to beat it on a technicality.

Strike my first sentence and replace it with this one: GROW the fuck up, and take responsibility for your choices.

[P.S. Sorry, we don't get all teary-eyed here when someone violates the law and puts other people's lives at risk in the process. We thank you for your service...but seriously, dude, get over yourself, and get HONEST.]

7/14/2010 10:18 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

My sister recently got out after 10 years and is now in college. She took a Women's Studies course and the professor turned out to be the stereotypical anti-military liberal that jack-knobs like Rush Limbaugh love.

Anyway, one class was about sexual harassment, sexual assault, sexual discrimination in the military. The professor quoted a statistic that less than 10% (or some ridiculously low number) of sexual assault cases that go to court martial are convicted, which everyone in the class thought was appalling. My sister then informed the class about NJP, where rules of evidence are much less restrictive, and that the majority of cases do not go to court-martial. She cited the couple of cases she was familiar with, including a harassment case in which the E-8 was RIR'd, restricted, and then given an OTH discharge. Then she pointed out that the military's conviction rate for sexual assault is far higher than the civilian conviction rate for violent rape.

7/14/2010 11:10 PM

Blogger MT1(SS)WidgetHead said...

"Suck it the fuck up, Army dude. Were you drunk driving, or not?"

"Say what? said..." has a damn fine point. That's one of our biggest career killers on an on going basis. We're having EP guys getting fucked over on having one too many while trying to make it back to the rack.

Alot of us live off base while on shore duty. But Kitsap county sheriffs and Silverdale PD don't fuck around when popping someone for driving piss drunk.

That's the biggest submariner killer...popping hot for a DUI. That's why I hand out cards for a TAXI SERVICE from the owner of said business so my guys don't have to take a dry missile load up the ass because they actively FAILED to plan accordingly before going out for the night.

It's common sense really...TAKE A TAXI to and from said location when you KNOW you'll be DRINKING!!!

Why in all hell must such a simple concept of life be so damned hard to achieve?!

Just take a damned taxi, Nobody will think anything of it. Troll's Taxi (360) 478-8600. They know where everything is throughout Kitsap. They will also meet our drunken asses at the ferry station once we've finished our rounds of raping and pillaging on the other side of the Puget sound known as Seattle.

Think ahead Gents, if you pop hot on a DUI, life as you know it will suddenly cease.

7/15/2010 12:30 AM

Blogger Unknown said...

Ok, Suck it up..that was what I expected to hear.

Was I drunk..dont know..that's why we have a BAC level, now I admit I was at the club with 2 guys and 3 girls, socializing, dancing, and drinking out of a pitcher, so hard for me to quantify how many drinks in an hour, wasn't counting wasn't drinking to get drunk, just having fun.

I wanted an "ACCURATE BAC" as much as anyone because if I'm gonna throw 12 yrs away I want it because I'm over the legal limit.

I know that in Germany the Polizei draw blood at the scene, so I know that is the most accurate, my desire was to go straight to the hospital and give my blood sample.

I didn't have a bottle of cough syrup, didnt claim I was taking meds and I didn't have a "DEVIOUS" plan to give blood and get out of a DUI on a technicality.

In fact an ironic twist is that without a BAT I couldnt prove I was under the legal limit.

Back to the subject of this forum.

Experience with the Military Justice system.

It is so confusing because it is so different than the Costitution and perceived rights.

Guilty until proven innocent or Innocent until proven guilty?

The right to confront your accusers?

I didnt see a copy of the MP report for 2 years and to top it off they lied in their statements to make me look guilty.

"Legal Assistance" at Ft Knox wouldnt help me because I was never called up for an AR15 due to...Lack of Evidence.

Right to a speedy trial? No trial.

Double Jeopardy? After 3 years, We cant get you here at Knox so we will move to a venue where we can, 2ID Korea Tommy Franks.

Cruel and unusual Punishment. Think about this one, 8 months waiting for a decision.After 3 years since the "CRIME" was committed.

Busted to E-nothing, Fined $400,000-$500000 over a lifetime.

To sum it up, this happened a long time ago, the story is really too incredible to be believed.

Essentially I got a DUI without a BAC. I didn't even get a citation.

On retrospect I knew a guy who got QMP'd for screwing girls as a Recruiter.

I knew 2 NCO's who got DWI's and Letters of Reprimand, that never made it into their files, must be a lot more, I knew a couple of guys who smoked dope and and got away on technicalities.

7/15/2010 11:36 AM

Anonymous Say what? said...

Army dude,

As Cab Calloway said in The Blues Brothers: "You get get to church."

Wise up. It's your choices, and your life. Don't waste it pissing and moaning over your being a dickhead.

7/15/2010 12:17 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

So, that was my experience with Military Justice.

See why I dont tell anyone.

I still like squids. tanks got hatches too I play my Submarine game once in a while. Watch Crimson Tide, Hunt For Red October.

Anyway I still got my family.

Walked into a Government job right out of the Army. My 15 yrs goes to Retirement and ..this pisses a lot of my old Leaders off, my paycheck still comes from DFAS Columbus.

7/15/2010 12:45 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

to say what:Wise up. It's your choices, and your life. Don't waste it pissing and moaning over your being a dickhead.

I think you are being a bit harsh on him. He sounds like he was willing to take responiblilty for his actions, he just wanted an accurate BAC. We don't know if it would have come back over the limit or under the limit. If it had come back under the limt, then I myself would have taken that for a good lesson on not getting into the situation again.

7/15/2010 3:22 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Busted to E-nothing? Fined 400,000 - 500,000 over a lifetime?

Who are you talking about? Sounds like you just got booted but were able to walk away relatively clean. Yeah, you kinda got screwed without evidence, but do you really believe you would have come in under the limit? Nobody drinking out of a pitcher comes in under the limit. You should count this as a bullet dodged and get over it.

7/15/2010 5:01 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

I think I could have been under the limit because my drinking habits when out was always the 1 beer/hour rule. I tried to stick to that. Often I was known to leave my truck parked at the clubs, all within walking distance. By no means was I guzzling beer and acting stupid.

After I got stopped herd mentality took over and "Guilty Guilty Guilty" became the mantra.

Have you seen the book or seen the old movie "The Lottery." (My teenage daughter just asked me a couple a weeks ago if I'd seen it. I was proud of her.)

The guys at Knox were like a dog with bone they wouldn't let go of.

Couldn't give me an Article 15, ok lets get something on paper,

Ok got it,"Apprehended by Military Police for Drunk Driving."

Being only a E6 I could have been booted by normal means, but there was always that pesky crowd of nice NCO's and Officers getting in the way. "No blood no foul."

So, send him to Korea and put him on QMP.

Do they have QMP in the Navy, this is a special tool they use to get rid of E7 and above.

"During times of Reduction Congress authorizes the Involuntary Separation of Servicemembers."

So I send up my appeal, the JAG who helped me said, "This is the best cased for an appeal I have ever seen."

8 months I get my answr back, Appeal denied, see enclr #4

enclr#1 date 25Nov Recommend no QMP. Company Commander.
enclsr#2 date 26Nov recommend no QMP, battalion Commander.
enclr#3 27 Nov Recommend no QMP, Brigade Commander.

Ahh now to enclosure #4, Like to add that the Regulation for QMP states it has 15 days to the date of submission to arrive at Fort Ben Harrison or it is automatic dissapproval.

enclr#4 date 21 DECEMBER,

RECOMMEND QMP, Commanding General 2nd Infantry Division.

Hope you all can use some of these Regs for friends who may need them in the future.

I have survived this relatively intact, but I do have great respect for the Constitution and how our Founding Fathers tried to protect our Liberties. That and Faith in God. Oh a great woman by my side.

7/15/2010 7:11 PM

Anonymous NHSparky said...

My last command (NRD) before I got out, I saw more NJP than I did on BOTH my boats combined--and the vast majority was handed down to the E-7 and above crowd for, among other issues: Dipping DEPpers, DUI in a government vehicle WITH an applicant in the car, sending ringers down to MEPS to ASVAB for other kids, and infidelity/sexual misconduct (the same one that got Admiral Watson relieved and retired.) Suffice to say it was an interesting conversation I had with the Chief Recruiter and CMC when I got out and was "advised" on how I should conduct myself as a civilian.

7/16/2010 7:54 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

{sending ringers down to MEPS to ASVAB for other kids,}

How do they catch that? You would think a quick look at the kid's DL would be enough.

7/16/2010 7:55 PM

Blogger Old Salt said...

Not quite an NJP story, but I had the opportunity to take a breathalyzer home last weekend for a little "theory to practice". One of the things that surprised me was how high I blew right after drinking about 1/3 of a Bud-Light. 0.1% to be exact. That quickly went down to 0.02 after about 15min, but I'll definitely think of that at the next Khaki social. The book says to wait 20 min after eating or drinking anything.

7/16/2010 9:52 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I sat in a court martial as part of my collateral duty legal officer course where a AN was tried for sex with an under age minor:
Backstory--AN & friend (NAS Oceana) "meet" young ladies online (really NCIS cyber sting). and agree to meet in the mall in 'Liz City NC. Then the plan is to go back to VA Beach for "recreation". AN & pal agree to wear command ball caps to be ID'd at th food court.
So AN & pal head south from base with NCIS tail and are pulled over on federal property in NC. They never got to the mall.
At sumary court the Navy JAG prosecutor was a textbook poster boy LCDR and the defender was a fat, sloppy LT.
AN & pal both received 18mos confinement (hard labor I believe), reduction rate, and discharge.
My problem was a crime ws never committed and NCIS botched the case (IMHO). The sailors are indeed scum but until they walked into the food court with ball caps on to make the meet, there was not sufficient motive and evidence to nail them.
A good lawyer would have gotten them off on NCIS's failure to properly work the case.

OBTW -- I'm glad these two predators are gone but NCIS could have done this right. And Navy legal only got them because th two were too stupid or scared to get a real lawyer.

7/17/2010 6:03 AM

Blogger Gospace said...

Was stationed at SSC Great Lakes, and had a sailor do the 29 day AWOL and turn himself in. Wasn't in his COC, but for some reason, was at mast. The convesation at the end went something like this:

S: I shouldn't be in the Navy anyway, sir. I'm gay.

CO: You're gay?

S: Yes, sir, I am.

CO: You're telling me you suck c--- for fun?

S: Um.., uh.., Yes, Sir.

CO: Well, tell me.

S: Tell you?

CO: Tell me you suck c--- for fun.

S: Um, well, um,, uh, I suck c--- for fun, sir.

CO: Have you told your mother you suck c---?

S: Uh, um, no sir.

CO: XO, get a phone in here.

(Few minutes silence while XO gets a phone.)

CO: Call your mother and tell her you suck c---. She should know.

S: Uh, um, I can't do that, sir.

CO: Do it.

S: Uh, um, I can't, sir.

CO: Obviously, if you can't tell your mother, then you aren't really queer. I don't believe you, because you won't tell her. 30/30, reduction in rate, 1/2 months pay for two months.

I was at a few other masts with CAPT Psalopek (sp?) presiding, and they were all a bit interesting, but none so much as that.

7/21/2010 10:30 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

What decade did this occur in?

If an 06 presided over a mass this way as described today, he'd be standing an Admiral's mast. A phonecall like this in front of everyone to inform his mother saying "Hey Mom, I suck cock and I like it!"...could send the poor kid into suicidal mode. Anyone can tell this happened 1 or 2 decades back. If a sailor says he's gay then it's automatic discharge. It's a matter of non punitive paper work and then he goes home...end of story. That's assuming he didn't commit murder, robbery or try and sabotage the boat.

That 06 was a dumbshit for trying to get the kid to call mom and inform her of his favorite sexual positions and other activities in his life.

7/22/2010 1:00 PM

Blogger Old Salt said...

@Harold, I love it. It may have been an old story, but obviously the kid was just trying to work the system. When I was a staff instructor (mid 90's), some kid came up to me on break and told me he was gay. I told him that we were OK with that now (I think it was about the first time we tried to allow gays), and as long as he didn't "commit sodomy" he was fine. He mulled that over a bit, and then decided he was stressed out, and was going to harm himself. Magic words at the time, and off to medical he went.

7/22/2010 5:37 PM

Blogger Gospace said...

Another story- from my first ustafish in San Diego.

I reported aboard as an MM3 in A Gang, and was soon sent mess cooking. A few days after I reported aboard, there was a change of command. While mess cooking, a young MSSN went UA for a period of time, no more than a week or ten days if I remember correctly. Reported back in on a Monday morning just before we got underway for 2 weeks. Nobody wanted to miss movement; that's a much more serious offense. Got called as witness to mast, by the MSSN, held right after we reached the 100 fathom curve.

CO: Where were you, son?

S: In Maine, sir.

CO: What were you doing in Maine?

S: Getting a haircut, sir. (and he did have a brand new regulation haircut)

CO: (incredulously) Getting a haircut?

S: Yes, sir.

CO: Why were you in Maine getting a haircut?

S: Well, sir, I was halfway up the ladder when MS1 asked me where the hell did I think I was going, and I told him I was going to get a haircut. He said, "Good, I don't care where you get one, just make sure you come back with one." So I went to my favorite barber in Maine. (now I knew why I was there). My witnesses saw it.

The witnesses were me and two deck seamen. CO looks at me, "Petty Officer?"

me: Well, sir, it pretty much happened just the way he described it, MS1 did say go wherever you want. I remember that.

He only questioned me about that. Next to SUPPO. "How is his work?" SUPPO gave a good report.

CO: Guilty. 14 days restriction.

At that time, unlike now, restriction could be served underway. And, coincidently, we were underway for 14 days! MS1 was already on the CO's radar screen, not a good place to be. Running out of ketchup on weekly ops was not a good thing...

CO: Dismissed, MS1, stay. We need to talk.

Would have liked to be a fly on the wall for that talk.

7/23/2010 1:54 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I may or may have not written "FTN" on a piece of paper and placed it on a COMSUBPAC vehicle which had blocked me into a parking spot at PH in the mid-90s. A friend and I managed to escape the parking spot via 4x4, but they had taken note of our license plate.

Next day, full blown bitch-fest from the QMCM/ANAV (he was TAD for the QMC who managed to get himself an Admiral's mast); "I know you did it, just admit it...". My reply "I don't know what you're talking about master chief?".

This went on for a few days, then I was sent to the XO for questioning. XO (LCDR Al Camp, who was a complete toolbox who went on to CO a boomer, I think) bitched me out and took away my driving on base privileges. Minor, I know, but the fact that the XO would bypass all evidence and punish because he was told to, really hit home.

This incident proved to me that staying in wasn't worth it. I told myself that after I got out, I would do everything I could to ensure that kids who are thinking about enlisting get a fair and honest representation of what they are signing up for. I wish I had followed through with this, but I never did.

7/25/2010 1:25 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

My favorite mast story, circa 2005: MMFN(SU) A-Ganger presents me with the letter drawn up by base legal stating 'he intends to commit homosexual acts and therefore should be administratively separated.' Clever, this fella, because he was about to go to his 3rd mast for forging sigs on his qual card (one of his previous masts was for similar integrity problems). I called Squadron legal to confirm - as long as he's on my crew, I decide the order of events. If I allow the letter and it's administrative process, MMFN gets all his benefits and an Honorable Discharge. If I take him to mast #3 first, he gets his Admin sep but no bennies and no HD. After completing the mast, the XO calls home (he knew the parents on a first name basis by now) and lets them know about the letter, and that he would probably need someplace to stay and lots of support at home to cope with both his loss of job and his newfound preferences... and I had no more letters written by the base lawyer.

7/25/2010 3:52 PM

Blogger Gospace said...

On the second ustafish, my own case got as far as XOI. Now an MM2. Normally, underway masts occur within a day of the report chit. It had been over a week, and the FN and I were standing in front of the XO. I'm really not good at reading facial expressions, but you didn't have to be a genius to know he didn't want to be dealing with this. The charges were read off; he looks at me and says, "Well?" I started with, "FN A had nothing to do with this, He just told me where the cranberry sauce was. I took out the cans and opened them. Half the problem dealt with, the XO dismissed his charges. Next, for me.

XO: What happened?

me: We were having turkey, and I asked the cook where the cranberry sauce was, he said it wasn't on the menu. I said it's turkey, you have cranberry sauce with turkey, like pineapples with ham, and applesauce with pork. Where's the cranberry sauce? He said, "It's not on the menu." and walked away. The FN said he knew where the cranberry sauce was in dry stores, and showed me. I broke out 2 cans, opened them, and gave them to the crew."

XO turned to the cook, and asked what happened. Got pretty much exactly the same story, that I had, without authorization, broken food out of dry stores. XO rolled his eyes. Everyone knows that on a sub, wardroom and crew eat the same thing. XO turns his attention to CHENG. "Engineer, what did we have in the wardroom for dinner that night?" CHENG answered right up, "We had turkey, sir." XO asked again, "Did we have cranberry sauce in the wardroom?" CHENG looked at the overhead for a moment in thought, and replied, "Yes, sir, we did." XO looked at SUPPO, "Why didn't the crew have cranberry sauce?" "Um, I don't know, sir. I'll find out." End of XOI.

We did eat the same thing, except every other Sunday when the wardroom had the CO's favorite, lamb with mint jelly, which the crew had rebelled against. And the wardroom fought over who got to sample the enlisted mess that day.

7/25/2010 7:05 PM

Blogger Gospace said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

7/26/2010 1:20 AM

Blogger Gospace said...

One thing an officer should learn early on is never, never ever, say anything to sailors that sounds like a challenge. No matter what the challenge, someone will take him up on it. I got this third hand, in 1979 of so, in San Diego, right after it supposedly happened. Whether it did or not- it sounds real enough.

There was a skimmer doing weekly ops, and had been for too long. A sudden epidemic of Monday morning car failures started to occur. "My tire went flat, by the time we chenged it and got to the base, the ship was gone." "The radiator boiled over. By the time I found a pay phone and got change (remember those days?) it was too late." etc, and so on and soforth. And the sailors involved would turn themselves into squadron five minutes after the ship had left. The first few weeks, the CO went easy at mast. Then, too many people missed movement one Monday. He was not happy. Friday came, and liberty was held up until masts were complete. He gave one last benefit of the fdoubt, got on the 1MC and announced, "Come Monday, everyone better make movement. If you don't have a story I haven't heard before, you"ll be maxed out at mast."

Sure enough, Monday morning, one lone twidget third missed movement. Turned himself in shortly after the ship departed. The Co should have realized something amiss when the message from squadron didn't mention anything at all about why he had missed movement. Friday, the ship returne, the young PO3 walks up the brow, and as soon as sea and anchor is secured, mast commences. The young man had already seen his LPO, Chief, DivO and Dept Head. CO realized something was up when half the attendees were at he normal serious mode of attention, and half were fidgeety, rocking from foot to foot, and biting their lower lips to keep from smiling or laughing out loud. The mast went something like this according to the story I was told.

CO: Why did you miss movement?
S: My girlfriend didn't want to leave, sir.
CO: Did you tell her you had to go?
S: Yes, sir, I did, but she insisted I stay until the ship left.
CO: Well, why didn't you just walk out and leave.
S: I tried to, sir, but I couldn't.
CO: You couldn't?
S: No, sir.
CO: And why not?
S: She is pretty good at tieing knots sir, and I couldn't get loose. She took pictures.

And he proceeded to lay the polaroids of his naked body tied to the bed on the green table for the CO to view. The ones who hadn't seen them yet had their laughs cut off by an angry glare.

The CO was as good as his word, let off with warning. He didn't get back on the 1MC. Before liberty call, the word filtered down from all dept heads to every sailor, you WILL be present on Monday, no excuses, no anything, or else.

The next story I have, if anyone shows interest, is the time I got handcuffed in Guam. It's longish.

7/26/2010 1:21 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

That was funny as hell!

Yeah, lets have the next one Harold.

7/26/2010 10:15 AM

Blogger Gospace said...

Wrote it up in word, cut and pasted, and it was too long. Max is 4096 characters, I'm at over 9000. So, as soon as I edit it down so it holds together, I'll post my handcuff story.

In the meanwhile, at mast as a witness on my second ustafish, an MT3 was charged with assault by an MT2. Grabbed him by the shirt, pushed him against the bulkhead. "It wasn't assault, just a friendly little discussion." At the conclusion of mast, any last words. "Captain, I'd rather be a deck seaman stripping paint on a tender then a missle tech on a submarine." Captain's reply, "Son, you've got your wish. RIR to SN, (no such thing as an MTSN), 30 days restriction and extras duty, and transfer off the ship." We'd pass by him on the tender. He'd be up on the focsle chipping paint, and always have a smile when greeting his former shipmates. He did not like being on a sub, and really was genuinely happier where he was.

7/27/2010 1:02 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"and it was too long. Max is 4096 characters, I'm at over 9000."

Harold, how about posting the story in 3 separate parts? One post right after the other could work.

7/27/2010 9:34 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Captain, I'd rather be a deck seaman stripping paint on a tender..."

It's that easy to get off a sub? As a QM3(SS) in the mid-90s, I submitted at least one request chit per month requesting a transfer to the surface fleet. Answer I got back each time was that I was one of three in the Navigation dept. with an SCI clearance and I wasn't going anywhere. Makes sense to me now, but it sure did add to my bitterness then.

7/27/2010 12:23 PM

Blogger MT1(SS)WidgetHead said...

"It's that easy to get off a sub?"

Actually, yes it is. First off, we're generally able to screen out a malcontent like Harold described in his last. The MT3 who decided to become a No rate paint chipper for life is definitely in the bottom 10% who LPOs and Chiefs have to typically spend 90% of their time with counseling, watching, correcting and continuously reminding him to remember to wipe his ass after a dump.

How did he make it through PRT, BESS and A-school in the first place plus screen for a clearance necessary for our type of work in life? Watchbill permitting, you'll have time off, but I wouldn't recommend showing up to mast with a bullshit attitude. You best check it at the hatch before you stand before the green felt.

7/27/2010 4:21 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Widget, no snark intended, but I seriously tried to get out of the sub-service and was met with nothing but resistance. I had no idea that volunteering meant no chance for un-volunteering.

Obviously, I made it through all of the screening; TS-SCI, etc.

I think (hope) things have changed since I was in. Since my EAOS, I've done very well for myself, but I'd hate to see someone else in such a position, with such information and broken patriotism, seek other avenues to do well.

7/28/2010 12:02 AM

Anonymous Buck B said...

2 Army stories
I was a brand new O-1 in Germany in early October 1980. Arrived on a Thursday and was told I’d meet my platoon on Tuesday by my CO…unit was in the field. I was told I was 1 E-6 SSG short but a guy was being transferred in from another base over the weekend.
While driving to our base he got a DUI…busted to E-5 within 2 weeks. A month later he lied to me and my E-7 platoon sergeant about doing maintenance checks on his vehicle….resulting in a blown engine and transmission. Busted to E-4 and a month’s pay for the engine and transmission.
Gets another DUI a month later.
He was out of the Army by the end of JAN 81.
While a company commander (O-3) had one of soldiers up for GCM for stealing a jeep from another unit’s motor pool….while awaiting trial he got caught stealing a set of golf clubs out of the brigade commander’s car. Didn’t wait around for GCM…we just got him an Admin BCD and sent him on his way.
Not judicial but funny.
The one thing you don’t screw around with a serviceman on is their religion. Has a lot of really bright kids in my unit in 1987…guys with a year or two of college who enlisted for 2 years to help pay for school….and I had one E-7 who was one of the last of the McNamara’s 100,00 on active duty…good sergeant but not the brightest guy. So I had this one guy who would change his religion every month and request a new set of dogtags. He went from Catholic, to Greek Orthodox to Lutheran to Baptist to Buddhist in about a 6 month period. And we couldn’t say a thing. About 2 months later I hear that E-7 yelling in my First Sergeant’s office. I called in my First Sergeant and asked what’s up. He had me read the latest change of religion. I burst out laughing and told the First Sergeant to get the kid and his chain of command in my office right away.
They all file in the kid comes in and reports in front of my desk standing at attention. I look at him and then look down at the paper work on my desk….and I said: “Private 1st Class SO and So…You are not allowed to be a Druid! Knock this sh!t off and get out of my office!”
Made the kid my track driver to keep him out of trouble…besides I needed someone around with a sense of humor that matched my own!

7/28/2010 8:56 AM

Blogger MT1(SS)WidgetHead said...

"Widget, no snark intended, but I seriously tried to get out of the sub-service and was met with nothing but resistance."

No snark taken, Anon 7/28/2010 12:02 AM. From what I read, my first guess is that you aren't/weren't a useless malcontent when you returned to CIVLANT. When most guys finish up and go for a job working for GE, Northrop Grumman, Sony or Raytheon...they typically do quite well for themselves. Like yourself, these guys are not malcontents who act like a snotnose who shits on his fellow shipmates in order to get out of a detail or working party.

What Harold described in his 7/27/2010 1:02AM was what I was talking about. Those are the little bastards who show up on radar and need to be sent home to work at Radio shack for $8.00 an hour for the rest of their lives.

When it's time to go home, then it's time. That doesn't automatically make a guy a shithead or a useless malcontent. It all depends on each individual's situation at hand and (most of the time) entirely at his own making.

7/28/2010 2:30 PM

Blogger Gospace said...

Real condensed version-
Burger run for duty section in Guam-downtown Agana McD’d before fast food on base existed.
Left 2 drunks in vehicle who decided to wake up.
AFP’s interrupted ordering to ask me outside, told them to wait, finished, then stepped outside.
Slam danced me against vehicle, handcuffed me, crowd gathered. Grew bigger, quickly.
Why? “You committed a serious offense. You failed to lock your vehicle.”
Crowd laughed. (At first). Asked them, “You handcuffed me in the middle of the parking lot at McD’s in downtown Agana for not locking a van? Are you 2 high on something?” Turned to haul me into their van. Problem. Big Guamanians leaning on each door who weren’t planning on moving. (I realize big Guamanians is redundant.) Crowd getting ugly. One with radio moved off by himself, radioed for help/backup, advice. Was apparently told let me go. Released me with warning my CO would hear about in 4 days; told them he’d know in morning, and be as irritated as me.
Fetched order; got extra ¼ pounder meal from manager on the house. Returned to ship with full van. Had to tell duty officer 3X before he got that they handcuffed me for not locking the van.
Told CO at breakfast next morning, maneuvering watch set, and XO started calling people into his stateroom right after 100 fathom curve. Me last. Stories all matched. On return to port 3 weeks later, when report chit found in mail, XO took names of AFP’s, placed on another report chit, ripped mine in half, and sent everything back to Commander, Naval Forces Marianas.
Good to work for a command that backed its’ men.
When I tell it at sea story time, there’s a lot more detail. Illustrates what happens when you give natural born bullies too much power- it goes to their heads.

7/29/2010 12:17 AM

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