Keeping the blogosphere posted on the goings on of the world of submarines since late 2004... and mocking and belittling general foolishness wherever it may be found. Idaho's first and foremost submarine blog. (If you don't like something on this blog, please E-mail me; don't call me at home.)

Tuesday, November 15, 2011

♪♫ "And Another One Gone..."♫♪

Well, another CO in another submarine-related command got the ax this month, and this one is quite a surprise. RDML (sel) Greg Thomas was temporarily relieved as CO of Newport News Norfolk Naval Shipyard back in May; the CO he replaced in 2010 was also fired. Navy Times reports that command climate was the reason for the firing:
In mid-May, Naval Sea Systems Command temporarily yanked Thomas, a rear admiral selectee, from his perch atop Norfolk Naval Shipyard in Portsmouth, Va. A naval inspector general investigation completed Aug. 31 found Thomas’ conduct “went beyond the limits of professional conduct expected of persons in authority.” The firing was made permanent Oct. 25 after Thomas was formally reprimanded for conduct unbecoming an officer.
The IG interviewed 45 witnesses who served in various leadership positions under Thomas during his nine months as commanding officer of the shipyard. Nine said they were subjected to “demeaning, insulting or profane language or intimidating behavior” privately as well as in public. All names other than Thomas’ were redacted from the report, which was obtained through the Freedom of Information Act.
An active-duty officer with more than 30 years in uniform told the IG that while some of his interactions with Thomas had been amiable, “There have been times when it rises to the worst experience of my naval career in terms of dealing with a superior who will not listen, who wants to be very vocal and loud, and who just wants to dress [me] down. I don’t know that I’m being treated differently in that case.”
What's surprising to me is that Thomas was selected for flag in the first place. I would be very surprised if all the people on the board (particularly in a community as small as EDOs) didn't know the guy had an "unpleasant personality", and given the risk-averse nature of most Navy senior personnel decisions nowadays, I figure that would have been disqualifying.

Reading Thomas' biography, I was surprised to see he went EDO right after finishing initial training, but still got assigned to a submarine later on. Normally guys who go ED before getting their dolphins are the ones who develop some disqualifying medical condition during training. However, given that he was probably "assigned" to USS San Juan (SSN 751) in 1988, when I think the boat was in PSA, I could see them giving a medical waiver for a guy to get his ED Dolphins in that situation. However, the fish Thomas is wearing in this photo look real.

Did you ever work for an asshole? I did. And do you think that assholism may be required in some situations? (Maybe like when you're taking over for a CO who was relieved because the command wasn't getting the job done?)

Bell-ringer 1620 16 Nov: Off-topic but still of interest, here's a story by the Michael Melia reporter about the ongoing investigation into cheating on nuclear qual exams.

57 Comments:

Anonymous Alexei said...

I met Thomas when I was in PNSY during my Dept Head tour. He was the Operations Officer for the shipyard then. Talk about a pompous, micro-managing prick! Doesn't surprise me at all to learn he fostered a horrid command climate after watching him at work up there. Smart guy, though. He's got a PHd from MIT. His dolphins are real, too, not just EDO-fish. I was thinking about going EDO for a bit, so we had a sit-down and he told me about it. If I recall correctly, he managed to finagle some kind of sweetheart deal to ride that boat and get the regular quals done, since he made it through the nuclear pipeline before getting med disqual'd.

11/15/2011 8:25 PM

 
Anonymous Mark/MM1(SS) said...

Definitely worked for a few assholes - LELT on first boat most egregiously. I think it may occasionally be necessary, but not by the one in command. Can't say I have any particular insight though. Now, just because I'm a nit-pickin' nuc; BH - there has never been a "Newport News Naval Shipyard". There is definitely a "Norfolk Naval Shipyard", as the article cites, and there once was a "Newport News Shipbuilding", but that one has been through so many name changes in the last fifteen years, I can't keep up. I think Ingalls owns it now. Doesn't seem like you to make a mistake like this, so I'll try not to be more of a dick...

11/15/2011 8:34 PM

 
Anonymous Mark/MM1(SS) said...

Oh - meant to mention that previous skipper at NNSY was fired fairly recently for a lot of issues, many in the safety area, so apparently someone in the decision-making loop figured they yard needed a hard-ass. Must be fun times in the Tidewater...

11/15/2011 8:37 PM

 
Blogger Bubblehead said...

@Mark/MM1(SS) - Thanks for catching that. Corrected. It was a long day at work.

11/15/2011 8:37 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Knew Thomas when he was RO on the
AS-40. To this day, I have not found
1 person at any of his last 5 commands that like that POS. Thankfully, finally, a command he reached that finally toppled his arrogance. Sadly, he'll just retire as an O-6 year old.


hagar
FOaD

11/15/2011 10:09 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“There have been times when it rises to the worst experience of my naval career in terms of dealing with a superior who will not listen, who wants to be very vocal and loud, and who just wants to dress [me] down. I don’t know that I’m being treated differently in that case.”

Sounds like a women scorned. Look for more candy ass complaints like this in the future.

Oh...he's very vocal and load.

Oh...he just wants to dress [me] down.

Count on this type of whining from our new lady riders.

11/15/2011 11:04 PM

 
Anonymous sbancroft said...

what brought women into this blog?

11/15/2011 11:30 PM

 
Anonymous Dardar the Submarian said...

Who isn't an asshole in the Navy. I was an asshole in the Navy, and was told that very fact many a time.

I also cared about my people. Being an asshole and protecting the ones you are charged with makes for - in the right situation - a good pair.

Being an asshole for personal benefit, on the other hand, is what apparently makes a CO nowadays.

Asshole and protective - good
Asshole and self serving - bad

11/16/2011 4:53 AM

 
Blogger Erica R. said...

I think the previous poster hit the nail on the head. It is fine to be an asshole as long as you are a consistent and fair asshole.

I was pretty fortunate to have a great filter between the irrational, pompous assholes, and deck plate level, if you will. I cannot remember being "fortunate" enough to deal with one of those types. I probably would have been written up and/or masted for insubordination.

I wonder who is going to be next on the chopping block? What a wonderful Christmas gift.

11/16/2011 5:39 AM

 
Blogger Erica R. said...

Anon@1104

There are men who talk like that too. There was a guy in my power school class who told another guy to "Get out of my bubble. You are invading my space."

No joke, it was a completely serious conversation that was going to result in a fight. Big brawny dude vs slight skinny dude. Both extremely arrogant.

11/16/2011 5:45 AM

 
Anonymous Dardar the Submarian said...

Erica R - Trust me, being the asshole filter does not get you brownie points from the assholes, and the added drinking to get the asshole's voices out of your head isn't good for the ol' liver, but "I just didn't know no better" - as they say.

Wouldn't change the way I did things, because being an asshole is as much fun as messin' with 'em.

11/16/2011 7:00 AM

 
Blogger Bubblehead said...

Deleted a couple of spamments.

11/16/2011 8:16 AM

 
Anonymous YNC(SS), USN, Retired said...

Never worked for one. On my last shore duty I found myself between the CO who was my immediate supervisor and a CDR Department Head who was one. CO advised me to try not to find myself between them. It would work better for him, and be more comfortable for me. I had to agree.

11/16/2011 9:09 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My asshole story is about an XO. Checked onbd while in the shipyard and was promptly told that the working hrs were 6am-6pm. When I asked what asshole decided that, the spineless COB said it was the XO. Approached the XO citing morale & the like and later that day during the afternoon muster, the asshole XO dressed me down in front of the crew. He didn’t get the right training while coming up through the ranks because there are some people in the crew you just don’t screw with. The next day I set him up for an psych eval ensuring that all of his asshole mannerisms were properly documented. I heard that following his med board, he went EDO.

11/16/2011 9:24 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Worked at COMNAVBASE PH for an O-6 who on the surface was a decent guy. Until the O-7 above him nailed him unfairly to the wall over not having a driver for some function in Honolulu since his driver broke a leg body surfing. That O-6 then went looking for me to drive the O-7 around and I couldn't be found since I was on my own time. reported for duty when I should and got reamed for not being available on my own time. Was told if I went to another island to be in leave status. I looked up the instruction and found I didn't have to be in leave status, filed for Adm mast, won, the O-6 got tore into again and I decided to go back to sea. Life was definitely interesting.

11/16/2011 1:05 PM

 
Blogger Jon said...

The surface nuke fleet lost a CO as well, though not due to being relieved. The skipper of the USS Harry S. Truman died as he was departing the ship in the shipyard last week... :(

http://www.stripes.com/news/uss-harry-s-truman-commanding-officer-dies-1.160445

11/16/2011 2:16 PM

 
Blogger Vigilis said...

"Did you ever work for an asshole?"

Yes, but he moved upward and onward, was fired, moved up even higher and further away and was eventually again fired. (They usually have a friend in a high place).

In the Navy, particularly subs, the government gets rid of some good guys with the a'holes because it has to in order to make room for the newbies and preserve efficiency and morale.

This is also done fairly routinely in industry and commerce (up to a certain level).

I suggest all federal employees be subject to termination for cause like the COs and others mentioned. This could inject at least a modicum of accountability, the concept of productivity and it might even improve taxpayer morale.

Who would have a problem with equally accountable treatment? If you are one of the a'holes you are not expected to answer, but your illegitimate opinion will cheer up thousands of masochists, so have at it.

11/16/2011 2:26 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sub force IG investigating claims of cheating - newest Navy Crimes Article. But the sad fact it is the sign of the times with Nuclear Power.


"My asshole story is about an XO. Checked onbd while in the shipyard and was promptly told that the working hrs were 6am-6pm. When I asked what asshole decided that, the spineless COB said it was the XO. Approached the XO citing morale & the like and later that day during the afternoon muster, the asshole XO dressed me down in front of the crew. He didn’t get the right training while coming up through the ranks because there are some people in the crew you just don’t screw with. The next day I set him up for an psych eval ensuring that all of his asshole mannerisms were properly documented. I heard that following his med board, he went EDO."

See this is a good Corpsman.

11/16/2011 3:07 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Regarding the on-going nuclear power cheating 'scandal': there's very interesting reading here regarding Admiral Rickover's hatred of -- you might want to sit down first -- Navy training programs that overemphasized rote memorization.

There are also several books on Rickover that mention his dislike for (Navy) training by memorizing.

Things that make you go "hmmmm."

11/16/2011 4:51 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The only bad thing about nukes getting caught cheating is that it makes people start looking at forward training. And we cheat a lot better than the nukes.

I was in the Navy 14 years and a SCPO before I realized divisional tests were supposed to be something more than a joke.

11/16/2011 7:42 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Regarding the on-going nuclear power cheating 'scandal': there's very interesting reading here regarding Admiral Rickover's hatred of -- you might want to sit down first -- Navy training programs that overemphasized rote memorization.

There are also several books on Rickover that mention his dislike for (Navy) training by memorizing.

Things that make you go "hmmmm."

I read Rickovers article and it is so true. The question is how as a Force go past common sense.

The submarine force is like Einstein says about insanity.

doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

11/16/2011 7:55 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Regarding the on-going nuclear power cheating 'scandal': there's very interesting reading here regarding Admiral Rickover's hatred of -- you might want to sit down first -- Navy training programs that overemphasized rote memorization.

There are also several books on Rickover that mention his dislike for (Navy) training by memorizing.

Things that make you go "hmmmm."

I read Rickovers article and it is so true. The question is how as a Force go past common sense.

The submarine force is like Einstein says about insanity.

doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

11/16/2011 7:55 PM

 
Anonymous T said...

"Regarding the on-going nuclear power cheating 'scandal': there's very interesting reading here regarding Admiral Rickover's hatred of -- you might want to sit down first -- Navy training programs that overemphasized rote memorization.

There are also several books on Rickover that mention his dislike for (Navy) training by memorizing.

Things that make you go "hmmmm."

Reading this literally completely reforms Rickover in my eyes. For all those year, I thought that he was the source of all of the stupidity in the submarine force, particularly with regards to the excessive amount of (mostly useless) rote memorization. It turns out I was very very wrong.

11/16/2011 11:41 PM

 
Anonymous T said...

RE: The IG investigation... Did you notice that the Navy Times reached out to none other than Christopher Brownfield, aka the My Nuclear Life author aka the dip shit that wanted to use nuclear weapons to stop the oil leak in the gulf?

I know he is hated here (and I also think he's an idiot) but even a broken clock is right twice a day. And he is right about submarine "integrity"/

11/16/2011 11:44 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was in a meeting with him, a CDR, and a GS-14 He did not like the way that the paperwork he was asked to sign looked so he started berating the CDR like he was a nub FN that left the CO's shitter sign off while blowing sans (i am a retired A-ganger) he tore him down....then he looked at us and said would you 2 gentlemen please leave....before we could close the door he was back in his knickers....i was embarrassed for the man---the CDR was a great guy and really had his shit in one sock but the CAPT had no regard for who he broke down, where it was, or who was there. i understand he was sent there to fix the yard...but there is certainly a way to do it.

11/17/2011 3:46 AM

 
Anonymous Dardar the Submarian said...

I think it is quirky that this post is about working for assholes and yet all of these latest posts are promoting Rickover's ideals.

He was the biggest asshole of them all.

11/17/2011 5:10 AM

 
Anonymous Uncle Murphy said...

"Worked at COMNAVBASE PH for an O-6 who on the surface was a decent guy. Until the O-7 above him nailed him unfairly to the wall over not having a driver for some function in Honolulu since his driver broke a leg body surfing. That O-6 then went looking for me to drive the O-7 around and I couldn't be found since I was on my own time. reported for duty when I should and got reamed for not being available on my own time. Was told if I went to another island to be in leave status. I looked up the instruction and found I didn't have to be in leave status, filed for Adm mast, won, the O-6 got tore into again and I decided to go back to sea. Life was definitely interesting"......
11/16/2011 1:05 PM

Was this Capt. Stone (LDO) by any chance?

11/17/2011 7:36 AM

 
Anonymous Pizza Night said...

Not sure if I should name names, but here goes....Anyone had the (dis)pleasure of working for (now) CDR Ed Harrison (LDO). He was the self-proclaimed master of the Flame-Spray email. He would randomly rip someone to shreds, and cc every Chief and Officer.

I distinctly remember hearing a group of khakis saying how they literally dreaded coming to work every day.

11/17/2011 7:45 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@Darder: one person's asshole is another person's hero who gets things done. Disparage Rickover all you want...but consider doing so only once you've accomplished what he has.

You clearly didn't even read the article. Is someone an 'asshole' if they demand that people simply do a quality job? Maybe we need more 'assholes' in government and the Navy.

11/17/2011 9:35 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For those who missed the link:

http://bebekim.wordpress.com/2010/08/27/doing-a-job-by-admiral-hyman-g-rickover-u-s-navy-retired/

11/17/2011 9:43 AM

 
Blogger Erica R. said...

Excellent article. Do you think that Rickover is rolling over in his grave? Some of the points that he listed and disagreed with are some of the practices that the Navy has adapted.

11/17/2011 10:23 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Straight-up Rickover. Glad to see that it's word-for-word what he actually said, not some shit-for-brains, high school physics-failing journalist's ideas and interpretations of what the man stood for.

11/17/2011 10:56 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Navy's problem with training is that they're all caught up in appearances (thus the overfocus on rote memorization) rather than developing people's thinking abilities.

Going against that flow: One day when I was the Eng on a 688 that we'd just gotten out of overhaul, the CO kicked off a wardroom discussion by somewhat picking on me (I was just fine with it) as to how deep I'd be willing to go with the boat if the situation demanded it.

Would I go to test depth? (Of course.)
Would I go to hundreds of feet below test depth? (Yes.)
Would I go somewhat below crush depth?

This led to an answer that showed a weakness in the wardroom's level of knowledge, but not surprisingly so.

I said: "Yes...but first you'd have to gag the main seawater reliefs."

Can still recall the looks of shock around the table. Not so much that I'd be willing to test EB's over-built designs a bit (as they did quite successfully in WWII), but because there was 'just no way' that there were reliefs in the MSW system as far as everyone else was concerned.

A quick review of the S&EPM showed that I was factually correct...but I made it a point to not to tell they why they were there, though it was tempting to say that they were there "to relieve pressure outside the hull in case we went too deep" as a joke.

Why they're there was left as an exercise to 'the student'...which I'd like to imagine caused them to think in a way that's much more consistent with the surprises that we all eventually face and have to overcome "out there."

Later, the CO cornered me in the ER for the right answer. He got it right away when I was shortly into the explanation, but was confounded as to why I hadn't told the others the reason.

As I said then, I wanted the guys to think about it first. Sometimes not knowing the answer is more valuable, actual learning-wise, than simply being told it.

11/17/2011 11:47 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

...so any valve inside the hull valves can shut while the hull valves are shut

11/17/2011 2:35 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

^^Nope. You don't need a relief valve for that.

Reload.

11/17/2011 3:01 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Left the Navy in early 1980 but could not resist the challenge...

If MSW gets isolated, cold water can be get warmed up - what happens with an increase in water temp in a closed system?

...or it could be to just keep MSW intact if you go too deep (-;

Old Chief from the dark ages
Jerry

11/17/2011 5:03 PM

 
Blogger Mike Mulligan said...

A screw up with a hydrotest pressurizing seawater pipes too much?

11/17/2011 5:16 PM

 
Anonymous Mark/MM1(SS) said...

Hydro rigs have a relief valve installed for that purpose, dumbass. Go back to your Occupy (name your shithole) shithole.

11/17/2011 5:32 PM

 
Anonymous Bucket and Sponge said...

Get a room people......

Ok, back on topic. I once had a Captain kick open his stateroom door and screamed to the XO "You're a fucking dumb ass."

11/17/2011 8:19 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't think you have your EDO facts straight. The normal career path for a Submarine EDO starts with a normal division officer JO tour, then they go to post-graduate school to be a Engineering Duty Officer.

I suppose it's possible to skip the sea tour if you are medically disqualified, but that's obviously not the normal sequence.

11/17/2011 9:21 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jerry is closest...close enough for me to give him credit for the right answer. Most importantly, he's thinking about the answer from a systems perspective, not just 'memorizing' the so-called right answer.

As you might imagine, the MSW reliefs exist on each side of the ER. They're there in the event that you have isolated either MSW system at deep submergence (i.e., you're already pushing the pressure envelope in the system) and steam is still entering the same side's condenser from either the ME or SSTG.

So Jerry basically nailed it...they're for protecting the system from overpressurization due to thermal expansion.

11/17/2011 9:26 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When I was XO, the CO used to open my stateroom door and say "XO, we're all fucked up again" and leave. It was left to me to find out what had upset him...again. I would check with the OOD and EOOW first and then go to the Nav. Usually it ended there.

Had to go to OOD and EOOW turnovers with the CO after he nearly physically assaulted an EOOW.

Fun times...

11/18/2011 5:52 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

RE: "So Jerry basically nailed it...they're for protecting the system from overpressurization due to thermal expansion."

I hurt my shoulder trying to pat myself on the back (-;

Old (RO) Chief from the dark ages
Jerry

11/18/2011 4:22 PM

 
Blogger Mike Mulligan said...

Hydro rigs have a relief valve installed for that purpose, dumbass. Go back to your Occupy (name your shithole) shithole.

So how many hydro relief valves you got on board for all the difference pressures...

You going to depend on one small relief valve and a so call attentive operator, with a result to possible damage to the seawater water system and millions of dollar of damage and ops time...

Every see how fast pressure comes up in a completely solid seawater system and no valves leaking?

11/18/2011 8:04 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey mulliganitis? Ever hear the story of a connected hydro pump that was left unattended over night on an el tridente that over pressurized the system so bad it destroyed the MSW pump?
STFU me says.

11/19/2011 12:38 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I hurt my shoulder trying to pat myself on the back (-;

See? It really is just like the t-shirt says: Old Guys Rule.

11/19/2011 8:36 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Was this Capt. Stone (LDO) by any chance?"

No. Capt. Martin, ACOS to Adm. "Burner" Earner.

11/19/2011 9:16 AM

 
Blogger Mike Mulligan said...

Honest to god, don't you feel sorry for some these CO's at times?

11/21/2011 10:14 AM

 
Anonymous Split Testing said...

Hello admin,I love the Information... Great Blog Post...

11/21/2011 6:11 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No Mulligan we don't. No go away if you please.

11/23/2011 8:03 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I saw Captain Stone mentioned. Some people had a hard time with him but usually it was because they didn't meet his standards. If you knew his standards and measured up, there was no greater mentor than Jim Stone.

Captain Greg Thomas was a horrible naval officer with no redeeming qualities. He ruined many a career, I can't believe he got as far as he did.

Joel,
Watched the 22 pull in yesterday.

11/24/2011 10:39 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've posted before about the same.. Had a screamer CO, shipyard pirate all the way through his Officer Career.. Was COSS but given command when someone else got moved.. Back to the shipyard he went.. Liked to see how he could make you nervous or sweat by yelling at you, telling you how FUBAR'd anything was, change the crayon color and tell everyone he fixed your problem.. Anyway, ruined a couple peoples Sub careers by withholding XO recommendations leaving the command.. 30 sumn unplanned losses due to mast etc while in the shipyard shows a command climate that was horrible.. But, our EVAL/FITREP problem is another mess.
Cheating, always has happened! Enlisted 10.5 years, Officer 13 yrs.. No way an average nuke can pass an EOOW/EWS qual exam, or BEQ exam with the "required answer key knowledge" without some help.. Much less take it in 4 hrs.

11/29/2011 11:30 AM

 
Anonymous NHSparky said...

Pretty much anyone and everyone in the CRF community I encountered was an asshole, whom I wouldn't follow into a whorehouse if they had a fist full of $100 dollar bills. I never saw such a dysfunctional CPO community as I did in my recruiting tour.

As far as the boats go, I had one LPO who I wouldn't have minded seeing catch on fire just so I could piss on his corpse to put it out, but aside from that I pretty much ignored everyone else, or there were enough layers between me and them I didn't give a shit.

12/05/2011 10:52 AM

 
Anonymous dissertations said...

It's cool post! Thanks for it.

12/07/2011 8:35 AM

 
Anonymous Local Boy said...

I worked for Thomas. He was an arrogant, egotistical bully. He routinely would disrespect anyone and dress down personnel for the slightest thing. He would stand up in your face and yell at you in a threatening manner. Everyone knew he was unstable.
One of the biggest things he didn't understand was that people work to live not live to work. He micromanaged every little thing and would call you incessantly. He would routinely call subordinates any time day or night regarding things that could wait until the next work day. It got so bad that many managers would not answer his phone calls. This lead to a breakdown in communications.
The lack of respect for people's time extended into more activities. He would routinely be late for meeting he called, and would hold you late because he was late. Meetings would run late due to his 'stump the dummy' routine. This showed how much he knew. This caused a major part of your work day to be wasted.

In my 25+ years of Navy/Government work, I have never worked for someone so abusive. There were many a times I would attempt to literally console a military or civilian person who was abused by Thomas. The Navy is a lot better without him.

12/11/2011 5:17 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I worked for many assholes....one was just SUBPAC and the other is the Commandant of the Naval Academy. Both were my CO's on different boats and both were flaming assholes. They say what doesn't kill ya just F*&%$ you up real bad.

12/20/2011 5:24 PM

 
Blogger waterman said...

worked for a FTC for a short time as an MM3. He gave me the benefit of 34 years exp. dealing with J.O.'s over several long lunches. Later as a senior MM1 and 3M Coord for the Bainbridge I was having a rather heated discussion with the DCO about something that needed fixing. At some point in the discussion he accused me of not knowing what my job was. I told him that I was very clear on what my job was, it was to keep him out of trouble with the Captain and some days he made it dammed difficult. After a few moments of silence he asked me what I thought we should do about the piece of equipment. We had a very different relationship from that point on and I like to think that I helped prevent him from becoming an asshole

1/05/2012 3:02 PM

 

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