SSBN 730 (Blue) COB Masted, Relieved
From the Navy website:
The Blue Crew chief of the boat (COB) of the Trident ballistic missile submarine USS Henry M. Jackson (SSBN 730) was relieved of his duties Aug. 15 after being found guilty of violating Article 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice in a Captain's Mast proceeding at Naval Base Kitsap-Bangor.I'll be honest... I'm glad they at least did the investigation and mast before he was relieved -- let the system play out before taking action.
Senior Chief Fire Control Technician (SS) Jason B. Vega-Cruz was awarded non-judicial punishment and was removed from his position by Cmdr. Jon Moretty, Blue Crew commanding officer, after a formal investigation substantiated allegations of involvement in an inappropriate relationship. Mbr /> Vega-Cruz, who had served as Blue Crew COB since July 2012, has been administratively reassigned to Naval Submarine Support Center Bangor.
Chiefs of the Boat are the senior enlisted leaders of Navy submarine commands and have a great deal of responsibility for their unit's assigned Sailors and their mission. They strengthen the chain of command by keeping the Commanding Officer aware of existing or potential issues of concern as well as procedures and practices which affect the mission, readiness, welfare and morale of the Sailors in the command.
posted by Bubblehead at 9:21 PM
95 Comments:
That's what you get for sticking the khaki pen in the blue ink!!
8/15/2013 9:27 PM
Not blue ink shipmate, more like the wife of another khaki......
8/15/2013 10:22 PM
Only a matter of time before karma catches up with his mentor at CSS-11
8/15/2013 10:50 PM
Not sure what's worse punishment. The masting -or- the posting of his name and reason for it on the world wide web.
Even 10 years from now anyone who Googles his name will get the details.
Basically as bad a stain as a criminal record IMO.
Cops do this kind of stuff all the time and yet their information is considered a "personnel" issue and the specific details are protected.
By no means am I defending the guy, simply pointing out the inequities that exist on how these these get handled.
I think we've all seen it first hand how careers have been trashed over this kind of stuff. Every deployment you came back from you knew there was going to be fireworks for some guys at home....
8/15/2013 10:51 PM
If you're low enough to pork another man's wife, your name should go on the internet. It speaks volumes about the type of man you are.
I'm glad his name will show up in google searches for every new employer, if he even chooses to work after he retires.
8/15/2013 11:19 PM
Maybe her name should go on the Internet too... Takes two to tango.
8/16/2013 12:15 AM
Wow. That escalated quickly...
8/16/2013 3:46 AM
Please, oh please, let it be with the female chop.
8/16/2013 3:47 AM
*If you're low enough to pork another man's wife, your name should go on the internet. It speaks volumes about the type of man you are.*
Funny...some of the best leaders in history did what you're condemning.
8/16/2013 5:16 AM
I just wonder, the guy has 2 years left before he hits 20! Seems they should say in spanish!
ADIOS AMIGO! gracias por su servicio!!
8/16/2013 6:09 AM
His name should not be made public. It should not even be possible to go to mast for this. It is an issue between him, the woman and her husband. Period. The fact he can even be masted for this shows just what a bunch of backward thinking morons the .mil really is. Here's a clue idiots: You can't legislate morality. Quit trying.
8/16/2013 6:17 AM
@ 1:14am...way to go, drag someone else, by name, into the thread about a specific person being relieved following NJP. WTF does he have to do with Vega Cruz violating the UCMJ? If the COB in question had lived up to the CPO Creed and Navy Core Values, he wouldn't be in this position. It is natural that many of those who served with him before have come to his defense, but the fact remains, his CO took him to mast, not anyone else.
8/16/2013 6:19 AM
Deleted a comment. Slanderous comments mentioning a name of a Submariner not in the news aren't welcome.
8/16/2013 8:40 AM
This post is useless without photos of the wife in question!
8/16/2013 8:55 AM
When you come down to it, this is society today. Common stuff. When we start looking at service in the military as a paying job with benefits and those who follow that career path as employees who sign a blank check, then we can get away from the backward thinking nonsense of centuries ago. Morality and ethics are constantly challenged no matter where you go but the UCMJ needs to reflect todays society and not those of the past. I don't have to name the people who were charged with much higher authority when found out about their transgressions got the same treatment. This is not a case of rape or mistreatment. Knowing the consequences, he just might have had an emotional stake in the issue.
8/16/2013 8:56 AM
It's only "common stuff" if you have your head stuffed in the toilet. Porn has consequences. Kiddin' yourself if you think otherwise.
Just sayin'.
8/16/2013 9:06 AM
This is not just an issue " between him, the woman and her husband". Those in senior leadership positions, and especially the COB, have to be held to a higher standard. His actions off the boat still affect crew moral. It is the COB's job to lead by example. Breaking that kind of trust with the crew undermines his entire mission as Chief of the Boat.
8/16/2013 9:07 AM
Guess the submarine force's sexual assault prevention training sessions effectivness can now be officially questioned.
8/16/2013 9:19 AM
"Funny...some of the best leaders in history did what you're condemning."
Some of the best leaders also owned slaves at some point. Different times, different standards of conduct.
8/16/2013 9:23 AM
Funny thing here. A Senior Chief went to mast last week.... He was found guilty for showing his junk! He is being forced to retire! Yes he did 20+ years and has that right to retire. This cat should not be able to retire! He did not do his 20+ years. But we all know that they will put him in some cheesy billet to get his 20 years. That is wrong!!!
8/16/2013 9:54 AM
"Here's a clue idiots: You can't legislate morality. Quit trying." - anon @ 6:17
True, but the military is obligated to regulate "good order and discipline", especially on SSBNs, and that apparently is what has taken place. As a civilian non-submariner you would not have known that, so don't feel as stupid as your comment sounds.
8/16/2013 10:08 AM
Please feel free to preach "morality" in the same breath you preach equality for the gay agenda.
Whatch'all gonna do when the COB shows up with his husband. Moreover, how will you receive the message when the COB, (or XO, or CO, for that matter) has to hold quarters to inform you another shipmate went to mast for bangin' a married woman.
Even better, will the same COB (or XO or CO) be required to retire, or outright ousted from the Navy, for bangin' another man's husband. I doubt the Navy will find that a gay guy, who shows little respect for the sanctity of marriage between a man and a man, is all that offensive.
And, before you start screamin' and hollerin' about "That will never be allowed to take place" or "We have our own ways of making sure that doesn't happen", y'all better check yourselves. It not only can happen, it will happen. Not today, or tomorrow, but soon enough.
Get off your moral high horses. You can't have it all. Showing a man's junk is not a terminal offense, unless he did it in the Vatican. Even then . . .
8/16/2013 11:04 AM
It's already happened...
GROTON, Conn. - A Navy sailor returning from a six-month deployment emerged from his submarine, dropped to one knee and proposed to his boyfriend during the homecoming celebration in Connecticut for USS New Mexico.
About 200 people were gathered at the dock of the Naval Submarine Base New London where Machinist's Mate Jerrel Revels proposed to Dylan Kirchner. Kirchner said he had thought about getting married but the proposal Monday came as a surprise.
"I didn't really care everybody was around. It felt just like the two of us," Kirchner told The Day of New London.
8/16/2013 11:24 AM
Here's a clue idiots: You can't legislate morality. Quit trying.
I love it when I see comments like this. Exactly WHAT does EVERY law do? It legislates what is right and wrong - MORALITY.
Here's your sign . . .
8/16/2013 11:39 AM
If this was a big deal it would have been a courts martial.
The point is, it was handled at NJP, which is for minor offenses.
In the words of our future woman president (who has first hand experience with this type of thing) "what difference does it make?"
And yes, he will finish his 20 (already put his retirement papers in at 18 month mark) just like any other NJP awardee could.
8/16/2013 12:01 PM
It's truly a sad day. I went onto Navy Times this morning and there was the first thing I saw. There are people who actually have issue with the press release and feel bad for him. Some commented he was an awesome CPO.
People get a gripe he may have been the #1 CPO or he made Master Chief because of his hard work however that doesn't change what happened. What kind of message do you want to send right in middle of CPO 365 Phase II and post "he will bounce back" The man should not allowed to be back into any mess. Incidents make the jobs of other CPO's and CMC/COB's more difficult.
8/16/2013 12:36 PM
"And yes, he will finish his 20 (already put his retirement papers in at 18 month mark) just like any other NJP awardee could."
You wouldn't know this because you're not actually in the military, but NJP could lead to adsep even for CPOs.
8/16/2013 12:40 PM
If he's allowed to finish out the last two years, stashed away somewhere doing nothing of value to anybody, just so he can qualify for his pension, then there is a long list of people who are dropping the ball. Kick this fuckstain out of my Navy. If the Navy wants senior enlisted leaders and senior officers to start playing by the rules, those rules need to have some teeth. A COB banging a fellow CPO's wife?? Make an example out of him, maybe some of these other dipshits will notice and have a second thought. Getting tired of reading about people who are supposed to be leading Sailors doing dumb shit like this.
8/16/2013 12:41 PM
If he's allowed to finish out the last two years, stashed away somewhere doing nothing of value to anybody, just so he can qualify for his pension, then there is a long list of people who are dropping the ball. Kick this fuckstain out of my Navy. If the Navy wants senior enlisted leaders and senior officers to start playing by the rules, those rules need to have some teeth. A COB banging a fellow CPO's wife?? Make an example out of him, maybe some of these other dipshits will notice and have a second thought. Getting tired of reading about people who are supposed to be leading Sailors doing dumb shit like this.
Amen couldnt agree more.
8/16/2013 1:07 PM
" Here's a clue idiots: You can't legislate morality. Quit trying.
I love it when I see comments like this. Exactly WHAT does EVERY law do? It legislates what is right and wrong - MORALITY.
Here's your sign . . "
Not that you're capable of it but a deeper dive into the law v. morality topic might give you some clue to the relationship between the two. Don't try, it's way too complicated a topic for you.
I'd give you a sign but you'd probably eat it or put it on backwards.
Please explain to the group how to legislate adultery. Please give examples of successful attempts to do so.
You're dismissed.
8/16/2013 1:13 PM
Don't know the details of what happened, but I served with him on the Philly (he was the FTC)- and he was a terrific FT, a terrific CPO, and a terrific shipmate. One of the best guys I served with- hard-working, conscientious, he cared about the men under him, etc. This doesn't excuse his behavior, but I hope it may mitigate some of his punishment. Good men do bad things sometimes.
8/16/2013 2:25 PM
I hope it doesn't mitigate jack shit. One of the cardinal rules of submarining is "Never fuck a shipmate's wife". Those dolphins on his chest (and I'm assuming they're on yours, as well) are meant to signify that he has earned his shipmates' trust. How can someone trust him to make the right decision as a Submariner or as a COB if they can't trust him to keep his dick out of their wife?
8/16/2013 2:30 PM
Well I do think he should be punished- and perhaps he should not serve on another sub. But I hope he gets a chance to finish his 20- even if they reduce his rate.
8/16/2013 2:43 PM
This type of stuff goes on here more than you think. He was one of those guys that could not stop when told to do so and he paid the price.
8/16/2013 5:10 PM
Bangor COB bangs his chief’s wife and gets fired. Kings Bay XO bangs his JO’s wife and gets command of a brand new shiny Virginia Class. Go figure.
8/16/2013 6:22 PM
^^^^^^
If that was true and the XO called out on it, he would be fired. Guarantee it.
8/16/2013 9:05 PM
For any CO/XO/COB/CMC that gets fired while in a leadership position, the Navy has established an Overt public affairs posture. They will share the story, accurately and on their terms before it "leaks" through venues like this and then they are accused of "covering it up". Sucks for the person when the offense is on the lower spectrum of issues...but that's the policy.
8/16/2013 9:19 PM
Enough of this, lets talk about the real news:
CSG2 O-7 billet getting deleted (not converted to O-6) by 2016. SO I assume that means CSG2 command will be deleted too.
Joel: lets discuss that one. I am sure there are many readers who were in the yards or NEWCON that have been "helped" by CSG2 over the years...
I fondly remember the help that I received by the post JO "material officer" when I was NEWCON ENG....
8/17/2013 8:26 AM
I agree with the post above. What are the implications of eliminating CSG2. Does that mean the local squadrons will report directly to Commander Submarine Forces or that they will report to the Flag at Kings Bay who will be responsible for all Atlantic Fleet subs. Right now, CSG2 has responsibility for the attack submarines in the Atlantic. Will New England lose the last operational flag billet? The only other Navy flag in New England is the President of the Naval War College. What does this say about the future of SUBASE NLON if it no longer hosts its own flag officer? Lots to discuss on this topic. What are the rumors and actual words in the active community?
8/17/2013 9:25 AM
He's not the only COB doing shady business. There is at least one other COB in Bangor that cheated on his wife and hasn't been dealt with. Maybe with this latest incident they will look at it now.
8/17/2013 9:30 AM
"Bangor COB bangs his chief’s wife and gets fired. Kings Bay XO bangs his JO’s wife and gets command of a brand new shiny Virginia Class. Go figure."
Pearl Harbor CO bangs his JO's wife, JO complains to Squadron Commander, JO transferred in mid-tour back to the mainland, CO completes command tour, CO then gets command of a Pearl Harbor Squadron. Go figure.
8/17/2013 12:14 PM
You posting anonymously tell the world who the O hangers are or stop saying unsubstantiated BS.
IRT the COB in Bangor there are more of that type of BS going on in every port every base. I live here and I will tell you no one was cheating it was mutual.
8/17/2013 4:30 PM
Concerning CSG 2, not a big deal. CSG 5 went away in the mid 90's and the impact was minimal. It's not like the Groups are doing SUBOPAUTH duties anymore (except of forward deployed 7 & 8) and that's really the main reason to have a flag.
As for the COB, at least he likes pussy...there aren't to many hetro males anymore according to the liberal media.
8/17/2013 5:13 PM
I'm sure it was mutual but that is not leading by example nor does he exemplify the principles of good order and discipline as a command leader. They were right to take action.
8/17/2013 5:37 PM
CSG 2 will be no loss to anyone, except the no loads chilling out there on shore duty. All the glory of Flag Duty with none of the actual responsibility! A glorified CSS is all it is today and I am excited to see it fade away. Maybe now we can finally do what every BRAC has wanted to do and shut down that entire hell hole Groton. Too bad we can't shut down the Groton sailors as well!
8/17/2013 5:50 PM
Anon said:Too bad we can't shut down the Groton sailors as well!
Who are you to say who gets shut down, without even using all my guesses I can say you are from Bangor! Watch out, you'll be calling Groton for another COB here soon. Thats where the leaders are molded! Bet your retired paycheck the next COB that fills a billet in Bangor will be from here in Groton! No one wants to be a COB there, no one to emulate.
8/17/2013 8:05 PM
Lets check the recent posts:
1. COB goes to mast.
2. Some one brings up the proposal on the pier.
3. That spawns the negativity about the Group position going away.
4. Some one brings up the B word(BRAC).
5. One sober guy in Groton gets mad!
By the way BRAC won't shut down Groton the Master Chief Mafia at Groton would not have anywhere to drink!
I love this post! Keep them coming.
8/17/2013 8:09 PM
Anon at 8:09PM: What makes you think the pro-Groton poster was sober?
8/17/2013 9:23 PM
@ 05:13PM
--
CSG-8 is not involved in SUBOPAUTH duties at all. CTF-69 has that resposibility (O-6).
8/17/2013 9:59 PM
If you cant make moral and ethical decisions in your personal life, what makes the Navy think that you can make good moral and ethical decisions in your professional life?
If you cant make responsible decisions about the things in life that really matter the most, why should everyone else think that you can make responsible decisions that affect the people that you are leading?
Just because some of the greatest leaders in history did this same thing, doesn't make it right nor does it make them the ideal leader. Take the good that they did and leave the bad. Leaders with character flaws...
LT M
8/18/2013 7:48 AM
And what, exactly, is the standard for "moral and ethical" conduct, LT M...? If it's legal, it's moral? Sodomy is still on the books in the military and in some states, so our knowing of your support of that activity means that the law isn't what's "moral and ethical."
If it isn't the law that sets moral and ethical conduct, then what does?
I suggest to you that you have no moral or ethical standards. You just think you do. No offense intended, just sayin'. The same could be said of any number of people, and without judgement. Again...just sayin'.
8/18/2013 7:59 AM
Porking another mans wife is not morale or ethical. If you can not grasp that simple (I would argue common sense) concept, then I would say that you have a serious character flaw that could potentially lead to catastrophic consequences in your personal life and the other partner's.
I would argue that your moral compass is significantly jacked up if you even have to respond to my post with an accusation that i dont know what morality and ethics are because i frown upon adultery. My dad cheated on my mom. Ruined our entire family for the rest of our lives.
Your post is ignorant, naive, and I would never want to surround myself with someone such as yourself.
As far as sodomy is concerned. It is still unethical and immoral according to some cultures and religions. You could make an argument if it is or isnt unethical and immoral, BUT you can NOT make an argument if adultery is moral or ethical. Going behind a "loved one's" back to have sex with someone else does not exercise honor, courage, or commitment. NO good could ever come from adultery and one party is always hurt (usually beyond repair), therefore it is immoral and unethical.
The more I respond to this, the more I think your an idiot. I really hope that you are not in a position of leadership to not make the argument to lead ethical and moral lives. If so, God help us.
LT M
8/18/2013 8:39 AM
What consenting adults do in private -
only unethical when it affects Good Order & Discipline.
1. Not with Shipmates.
2. Not with Shipmate’s family.
Pretty Simple...
8/18/2013 11:22 AM
Lt, you are what is wrong with the Navy. Please stick to engineering as your personnel assessment skills suck.
You won't realize it until you leave the Navy but your words are that of a lemming. I'll gladly point them out if you wish. Dismissed.
8/18/2013 11:24 AM
So promoting a life style that doesn't involve fooling around with other peoples' wives is whats wrong with the Navy? Are you serious? (I suppose I've heard people say dumber things but I cant recall...)
You sir, are an idiot. I suppose you miss the god ole' days where drinking and driving wasn't a huge deal? Would you want your son/daughter sleeping around on their spouses? As a responsible parent (if you are one), I am going to assume that you wouldn't want your children sleeping around with married individuals. If you wouldn't want your children doing something, then you shouldn't want your sailors doing it.
This is a very simple issue and I strongly believe that you are on the losing side of this ethical/moral issue.
LT
8/18/2013 12:14 PM
@LT M: Nice try at changing the subject as regards what's "moral and ethical"...but I think it's pretty apparent that you aren't capable of answering the question, because you have no moral compass.
Don't come on here stroking homosexual behavior, and then turn right around and pretend that you have a moral compass because you had a butt-hurt childhood.
I think it's sad that you had that experience, but sadder still that even with that experience you seem to be incapable of answering the question: "What defines moral and ethical?"
Is it whatever you happen to be thinking it is on any particular day? Or is it a little more profound than that? We've already established that "moral = legal, legal = moral" doesn't hold any water. So...what does?
8/18/2013 12:16 PM
I am amazed that someone could post on here that they support sleeping with someone else's wife, then have the gall to question anyone's morality. Really???
Anon 8/18/2013 7:59 AM, you meet the "stupid", just a matter of time before you will be "punished".
MMCM
8/18/2013 1:06 PM
Sit down, slow down and read, MMCM.
LT M is being questioned & challenged for his lack of being able to cite a moral authority. Nothing more...nothing less.
He claims being a homosexual in the Navy is fine, then gets all appalled when body fluids get swapped between consenting parties that are married to other people. I'd admonish anyone for either behavior.
Am (slowly) raising LT M's awareness to the fact that he has no moral compass. Being offended alone doesn't suffice as a moral compass. The law isn't a moral compass. So...what is his moral compass? Today's "feeewings?"
What is the *source* of what's moral and ethical in this broke ass society of ours these days?
8/18/2013 1:12 PM
P.S. The 11:24 AM anon got the message just fine...so this isn't impossible stuff to understand.
Moreover, if the government isn't a valid source of morality and ethics, what is? Anyone who doesn't quickly have a good answer for that question doesn't have a framework for morality & ethics.
And the "consenting adults"..."in private" philosophy of an earlier anon clearly fails the 'good answer' criteria.
8/18/2013 1:18 PM
Anon 8/18/2013 1:12 PM, I must have no moral compass.... I can separate the two.
"If you cant make moral and ethical decisions in your personal life, what makes the Navy think that you can make good moral and ethical decisions in your professional life?" Also, he never stated that HE believed in morality of homosexuality..."It is still unethical and immoral according to some cultures and religions. You could make an argument if it is or isnt unethical and immoral, BUT you can NOT make an argument if adultery is moral or ethical."
What he said makes sense. We expect our leaders to make decisions and take actions based on Honor, Courage, Commitment. Adultery is none of these. No need to site "Moral Authority".
Adultery IS morally wrong. You are making a decision, a choice, to engage in sexual activity that is outside of your vows to your wife or husband. These decisions/ choices speak volumes of your ability and do carry over to your professional life. You broke a promise to your wife, which involves lying at some point- you violated your integrity.
Homosexuality is a fact of life. Not a choice. If you are disgusted with that activity of others, that does not impact you or your life, that is your problem, not theirs. I may be disgusted with skinny men sleeping with obese women but that is MY issue, not theirs, no morality involved.
To finish with a section of OUR Sailors creed.... "and the fair treatment of ALL."
MMCM
8/18/2013 1:48 PM
The GOV'T as a good source of morality and ethics, than what is?
REALLY???? Who would ever claim that????? I would say look at the church for morality and ethics WAY before I would look to the government.... but we know you can't do that either.
REALLY????? - Shaking my head in disbelief.
8/18/2013 1:58 PM
You're shaking your head because you haven't read the thread. Try that next time.
LT M's morality & ethics and the MMCM's are identical with what the government tells them is right & wrong. No discernible difference. Gay is OK in the government's eyes, and LT M's and the MMCM's.
And the source for their morality and ethics? The lemmings can't state one. So the government provides one.
8/18/2013 4:06 PM
I received my moral values from multiple sources: parents, friends, teachers, professors, and, as I got older, independent reading. My family was the strongest source in my early life and laid the foundation of my beliefs, my friends and teachers in my teenage years helped broaden my horizons, and independent reading and life experience has refined it in college and beyond. "The government" did not instill morality in me, unless you want to call the Declaration of Independence and U.S. Constitution, two documents where the founding fathers laid the framework of morality in this country, as "the government" (I don't). I consider "the government" as the politicans, and if I were to draw my morality from them I wouldn't be a very good person, to say the least.
Life isn't nuclear power -- there's no single reference to point to for finding one's moral compass.
Having said that, some moral values I have learned are: respecting personal freedoms and rights, acceptance of differing opinions, faithfulness in romantic relationships, and honesty.
Within that, romantic relationships among same-sex individuals are not morally wrong to me. I couldn't care less, and I want them to have the same financial benefits I do via marriage for being in a committed relationship. To deny them those benefits is to deny another American and human being the same rights that you enjoy.
Adultery, on the other hand, is wrong and is a violation of the vows one takes when getting married. It is extremely hurtful to the spouse and can rip a family apart. If one is not prepared to make that commitment, then don't get married.
8/18/2013 8:02 PM
Integrity
8/18/2013 9:13 PM
Seems to me that the discussion should be focused on how to maintain professional standards, as opposed to finding excuses for serious deviations from the standards a service community supposedly subscribes to. You are either a team or you are not. If every sailor has to worry that his shipmate might be "Jody," then how can you ever forge an effective force? Then too, there's that old timey, quaint thing they used to call "honor." Seems to have gone out of style.
8/19/2013 12:00 AM
To Anonymous ... the ethics advisor/troll ...
A couple of thoughts:
1) If you came to a blog (especially this blog) to educate someone on moral reasoning and ethical thinking, you are seriously in error. (ref 8/18/2013 1:12 PM)
2) If you think a statement of "you have no moral compass" won't be offensive because you state "no offense intended". Then, "with all due respect" you are naive. (ref 8/18/2013 7:59 AM)
3) If you think that you can concisely identify and justify a non-religious source for morality (which is required for a secular community/society)... then you are way better than the 3+ millenia of philosophers that have struggled to do just that. As a teaser, I provide you the following link.
http://www.jesp.org/PDF/could_morality_have_a_source.pdf
(ref 8/18/2013 12:16 PM)
So how about we just keep with the social contract/community value realm of normative ethics, leave the moral theory to the classrooms/pubs, and agree that what that COB did was wrong ethically.
With all due respect, K
8/19/2013 12:40 PM
The most important question of this issue has not been addressed. Is she hot?
STSC
8/19/2013 3:24 PM
She's a reasonably attractive gal. Not supermodel-hot, and certainly not so stunningly gorgeous that I'd be willing to flush my career away, but she's far from ugly.
8/19/2013 4:34 PM
"Here's a clue idiots: You can't legislate morality. Quit trying.
I love it when I see comments like this. Exactly WHAT does EVERY law do? It legislates what is right and wrong - MORALITY."
In a way. But...
What's moral isn't always legal.
What's legal isn't always moral.
What's illegal isn't always immoral.
I remember a story from I think it was the mid 80's. A young Marine in California was being court martialed for the same offense- adultery. He hired a civilian lawyer for a defense attorney. The civilian's opening statment was something along the lines, "Your honor, this is California. It's impossible to be prosecuted for adultery in California." And motioned to have the case dropped. The judges reply, "This is not California, this is the United States Marine Corps. And if there's one person a Marine should be able to trust with his wife while he is on deployment overseas, it's another Marine." The lawyer didn't have any other defense...
You can legislate against adultery. It's been done throughout history, and is done now. Don't commit it and get caught In flagrante delicto anywhere in Sharialand. The punsihment there even today is pretty severe...
Is it moral or immoral to use, let's say, marijuana? Definately unlawful. The Navy tests for it and bounces people out and punishes them in other ways besides. How about other drugs? Cocaine? Or prescription drugs? Or jusr plain old alcohol. Behaving badly and doing something stupid while drunk, when I first enlisted in 1973, being drunk was an excuse. By the time I transferred to fleet reserve in 1994, it was an aggravating circumstance. That's legislating morality. Now, just being drunk appears to be a crime unto itself. Even if you're doing nothing but being drunk.
You can say we're legislating morality, or you can say we're legislating behaviour, but it's the same thing when you come right down to it.
8/19/2013 8:27 PM
Every single time a COB here gets a little out of hand everyone over reacts.Get over it. For the nimrod who made the statement we have no one to emulate take a look around. There are superstars everywhere!Groton you can keep your drunkards, Kings Bay keep your Boomer pins on and Pearl, HAHAHA not worth the effort!Worst comes to worst if the going gets tough our Group CMC can lead us on a Bike ride. Until the next COB debacle, Dive Dive...
8/19/2013 10:09 PM
"Only a matter of time before karma catches up with his mentor at CSS-11
8/15/2013 10:50 PM"
I knew exactly what you meant my brother as soon as I googled that Bi-Polar Sociopath. That idiot has created a hostile environment for anyone that unfortunatly has had to come in contact with that backstabbing selfish prick who will sell any CPO down the river for his own gain.
8/20/2013 10:12 AM
Note for the "secular society" guy and his fellow kind: we do not live in a secular society. Thank God.
From the Declaration of Independence:
"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
On the back of the green paper in your wallet:
In God We Trust
8/20/2013 11:13 AM
Google trends:
God: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=God&cmpt=q
Allah: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=Allah&cmpt=q
God and Allah: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=Allah%2C%20God&cmpt=q
And lest someone think I'm trying to stir up Christian vs. Islamic attitudes -- do you know how Jesus pronounced "God" in Aramaic? (Left as an exercise to the student.)
8/20/2013 12:37 PM
^^^^^^^
Ok, the above point and superfluous facts are mute. The demographics are Canada VS the Middle east...duh. Try to Google that in the USA.
Did you also notice tons of METAL bands have the word GOD in them? Lamb of God, God Smack, etc...you are dismissed.
8/20/2013 1:59 PM
For anon at 8/20/2013 11:13 AM
Note for the "secular society" guy and his fellow kind: we do not live in a secular society. Thank God.
I will certainly accept a minor correction to my post, I should have stated "which is required for a secular community/state". Because clearly, the community (military/submariners) and state (USA) under discussion are secular, i.e. not theocratic or religious.
Whether you choose to define our society (culture, local community, etc) as secular, anti-religious, multi-faith, or religious is up to you and is based on your perceptions.
You will get no argument from me that our culture/society/ethics were/are based on the Judeo-Christian heritage. But claiming that heritage as the sole reason that we are not a "secular" state is like claiming that you're going to heaven because your parents went to church.
However, we have now suffiently digressed from the subject at hand and I am dangerously close to violating my initial comment 1). So I'm out. -K
8/20/2013 2:05 PM
Nope...I really don't pay any attention to metal bands. Someone you know does?
8/20/2013 2:34 PM
"Because clearly, the community (military/submariners) and state (USA) under discussion are secular, i.e. not theocratic or religious..."
Suggest you re-read the Declaration of Independence, and/or look at the back of your money. Again. Repetition sometimes helps with learning disabilities. Again.
8/20/2013 2:36 PM
You guys are ridiculous... he shouldn't have been punished at all! We need to get him back in another COB billet so he can sleep with more CPO wives. And furthermore... we should encourage other COBs to sleep with their CPO's wives. Anybody in a position of power and influence who's making money from taxpayers should be able to use that power and influence to sleep with other people's wives without public knowledge. You guys are ridiculous!
8/20/2013 6:27 PM
^^^^^
Sleep with other Chief's wives??? WTF????? Most of them are dog ugly and fat and real bitches!!
COBs should take advantage of the senior situations they are in..hit a JO's or junior enlisted's hot wife!
8/20/2013 8:17 PM
Fire Marshall Bill!
8/21/2013 3:35 AM
Don't know why the XO was never charged...saw the investigation myself. Was allowed to go on an IA and everyone had a damn short memory that voted to give this prick a command much less a new com.
8/21/2013 4:43 AM
^^^^^
If the investigation did not result in a record entry or FITREP issue, no one would know. There is NO discussion other than what the "record" reflects at these boards. If not in the Service record or investigation didn't result in punishment, no one would know. It is meant to be fair to all and not let a rumor tube someone's career.
8/21/2013 6:11 AM
"Fire Marshall Bill!"
8/21/2013 3:35 AM
Yes, we would tell folks about him and they would either shake their heads in shame and disgust or laugh at the idea anyone can make rank at the right place and the right time. Sad.
8/21/2013 9:59 AM
I would like to get Dirty Dave Turley's opinion on this matter.
8/22/2013 7:46 PM
I'm seriously PO'd and the gal who betrayed her serving husband.
As for the CPO, reduction in rank (hence pension) post to counting penguins in Antarctica for 2 years.
OTOH I know of a situation involving 2 serving personnel and their partners where no betrayal was involved, just unusual domestic relationships.
Heck, one of the senior contractors who had spent more time on O-boats than I have had two husbands. It worked for her, and them.
But in a more traditional situation, it's betrayal.
8/26/2013 8:40 AM
This COB was just practicing the time honored tradition of "Droit du seigneur."
8/26/2013 11:00 AM
8/17/2013 12:14 PM
Yeah, I served under him. Could drive a boat like nobody else, but a horrible human being. Had a JO who said, "He needs to be kept behind glass with a sign that says, 'Break Only In Case of War.'"
True 'dat.
8/31/2013 5:06 PM
Just another piece of trash out of Bangor! That area is full of Trident Shits that squat there and play with each other!
9/08/2013 1:00 PM
You all sound like a bunch of idiots who probably miss The Navy like you miss High School. Because in many ways, both are one in the same. Nothing beats a retiree hanging out in front of the exchange just to give young sailors shit! You might as well put on your high school letterman jacket on with your dolphins and rank insignia pinned on it as well!
The quality of sailors is subject to the needs of the navy and who is willing to stick around and stay in. This COB incident is nothing new. We all know pieces of shit who are of very high rank that do slimy things to each other! To the point that they have a God Complex and are "legends in their own mind." So let this asshole fall and let the ones who have not yet be warned that their time is coming soon!
9/10/2013 7:12 PM
This thread is sadly humorous. Typical bubblehead stuff I guess...
First, the military has been and always will be the social experiment for our Nation like it or not... For historical support of this statement, the military was first to truly integrate were we not? Don’t ask don’t tell is gone yet UCMJ article 125 (Sodomy) remains in place (this point is to establish Irony).
Second, the morality police make me laugh... Good Order and discipline is important and unfortunately is used to "legislate" a modicum of morality, like it or not. Adultery is a crime punishable under Article 134, UCMJ. There are three elements that must be met to prove adultery existed. They are:
(1) That the accused wrongfully had sexual intercourse with a certain person;
(2) That, at the time, the accused or the other person was married to someone else; and
(3) That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.
Now for the argument about actions between consenting adults: by virtue of raising your right hand and taking the oath (remember this part? "According to regulation and the Uniform code of military justice") You kind of lose the argument of whether you agree or not aka “Fairness”
Are these articles and events all handled with consistency? Absolutely not! Just in the same manner that evaluations and FITREPs are not written consistently from CO to CO...
Is this "fair?" I laugh at the question because anyone that chooses to stay beyond first enlistment or beyond initial obligation as an O-ganger should know they consciously gave up the right to ask if something is Fair!!! The military isn’t Fair and never has been... You can get thrown out for just about anything... Don’t believe it? Ask someone that failed three PFA cycles (that’s Physical Fitness Assessment for non-military readers) yet are separated because they didn’t meet the height/weight template established by the service, yet scored an outstanding on the physical test. Not talking dirtbags but talking the sharp guys/gals that are just big people...
Whether those in uniform like it or not along with authority related to rank and position comes responsibility and accountability and the last two responsibility/accountability will always be measured by those senior to you... With political correctness going the way it is going, to maintain the privilege of wearing the uniform and having a position of responsibility whether a CO or Seaman leading a working party we are going to have to always evaluate anything we do against the possible “judgment” of others.
Final parting shot for those that think it’s not fair that some get the hammer and others get a pass… Do you bitch that others were speeding too and didn’t get caught when the cop pulls you over for speeding??? Or do you just accept that you are responsible for you, PERIOD.
LCDR LDO (ret)
9/17/2013 7:06 AM
Deleted a comment that revealed personal information by someone other than the person.
9/18/2013 6:39 AM
I out about my husband yesterday my husband has surely gone against everything mentioned in article 134... and today is my 32nd birthday!!! Cruz and anyone else who swears to uphold morality and lead by example should have their names POSTED!! They humiliate not only their spouses/family but the uniform in which they "loosely" WEAR!1
In my case I have stood by this man for the 9 years, two sons ages 6 and 8, the death of his mother, 3-failures in rank promotions to E-8 and NOW THIS mess. I laid in bed last night wanting to die by my own hand than face the humiliation. This man has robbed me of everything and I know that his family will try to take my children. I am currently serving as an AmeriCorps VISTA for a 2nd term after returning to Virginia via a military PCS move. I have not been able to find a career since returning so I accepted my current VISTA position to help ease his responsibilities as bread winner. I have always been "RIDE or DIE" for this man and he knows it and mentions it often...yet it seems like his living back here in the Hampton Roads area he can't keep it in his pants to save his life or our family.
I furious but more confused than anything. I have watched this man cry on his knees and have consoled him which is new to him (grew up in a loveless bitter single parent home). He promised me that our children would never experience what he did growing up and he would never put me through the pain of raising our children alone like his mother did with him.. YET HERE WE ARE!! Pissed that he's supposed to lead by example as a DECKPLATE LEADER I'm ready to call his ship and let them know exactly what and who he is... they more than likely don't care/ do it themselves. He's currently on his ship until Friday and we haven't spoken about this other than me fussing at him through emails. He only responded to me this morning @ 1:23am to tell me Happy Birthday...WTF. We never fuss or fight, so this whole thing has caught me off guard, but I couldn't help but lay him out. I asked the Lord to guide my tongue as I approached him via email and I tried so hard but flesh rose and I let go.
I have lived my life for GOD and my family. And there is nothing that I wouldn't do for my husband the pain is beyond anything I have ever felt. I'm so lost and embarrassed!!! I'm surely about to report my husband... I know he won't seek help so it's time for an intervention of sort VIA good ol' UNCLE SAM and his CHIEF MESS...
So imagine the pain that all spouses and other family members feel when these fools prance around like nothing is wrong and they aren't hurting anyone by sleeping around or any other acts that go against the military code of conduct!
9/26/2013 12:51 AM
This website helps me a whole bunch. God bless and good luck!! Legal and General.
10/20/2013 6:59 PM
This is not the first time he cheated on his wife...
12/15/2013 3:44 PM
I really dont think bashing people over the internet shows your morality either. Everyone makes mistakes and he just happened to be an important person. And karma really? come on now. youre all beyond ridiculous. I know him personally and he is not a bad person, he just had bad judgement. and it takes two to tango so i think the bitch should be blasted all over the internet just like he is. And as far as putting this shit on the internet for people to judge him is seriously ridiculous and immature. How about every one of you go take a look in the mirror and look back on all the mistakes youve made, im sure it all adds up and makes you feel like shit. He walks around everyday feeling like shit and im sure he doesnt need to see this shit promoting hatred towards him. Hate the bitch too, shes the one who let him in. And if you think your shit dont stink, youre about to hit reality. I hate when people talk shit about something they know not a god damn thing about, let alone a person they dont know either. and as far as the first comment made, know your facts before you go running your mouth. common sense kid. the article said "inappropriate relations", that doesnt mean hes banging a lower grade sailor. come the fuck on. you guys are all ignorant for trying to bash him and youre putting yourself low on the totem pole here. Im just glad your posts say "anonymous" cause i would hunt you down and slap some common sense into you because you obviously need it. oh and one more thing, hes doing WONDERFUL at his current command, so about the karma comment, look in the mirror idiot. karma will bite your ass too. (:
Put the picture of the slut that got his ass in trouble, she deserves the public acknowledgement as well.
3/11/2014 2:59 PM
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