I'm Buying In...
I've decided to buy into the political philosophy frequently expressed by Tea Party types that the Federal Government shouldn't Constitutionally be allowed to do anything not expressly specified in the Constitution. To that end, I'm calling for all previous acts of the Federal Government that were not specifically allowed by the Constitution to be reversed. Noting that there's nothing in the Constitution that allows the Federal Government to pay another government for land to add to the United States, I'm calling on all strict Constitutionalists to join me in demanding the immediate return of the Louisiana Purchase to France, Florida and Puerto Rico to Spain, Alaska to Russia, and the Mexican Cession and Gadsden Purchase to Mexico.
Next, I note that there's no mention of the word "veterans" in the Constitution...
posted by Bubblehead at 4:34 PM
155 Comments:
Reductio ad absurdum with these bozos is like shooting fish in a barrel.
And they don't seem to have much fun. Might I suggest instead the Flat Earth Society. Equally inane, but with a scientific flair absent from the great masses of unwashed in the Tea Party movement. And you don't need to buy a tinfoil hat.
Or you could become a Teabagger in the traditional sense - find a gay bar nearby.
I assume you also want the federal government to stay out of your Medicare and Tricare and not mess with your Navy pension. And perhaps the movement you join could do something about those pesky laws - always drive on the right side, don't shoot your neighbors, don't rob the bank, no plural marriage, etc. Oh, there seems no end to the goodness you can create by doing away with the big bad guvment.
Go get 'em, Joel. I'll be right along to help you ... once my pot crop comes in and I switch over from moonshining. Who thought up this government idea anyway - bet they were communists.
3/17/2010 5:04 PM
Once in a while I'm reminded why I read your blog, this is one of those moments. You rock.
3/17/2010 5:08 PM
Noting that there's nothing in the Constitution that allows the Federal Government to pay another government for land to add to the United States
I think the article that covers treaties with other governments probably covers this...so it probably is strictly constitutional.
I think you are smarter than this Joel. Don't fall for the whole Red vs Blue, Us vs Them, Tea Party Vs Democrat bullshit. Once you pick a side you become one of the idiots.
I happen to think the Feds should stick to their constitutional authority. I enjoy a lot of the things the feds do and I'm not against the idea of them doing those things...I just think that we should amend the constitution if we want to expand the federal authority.
They need to follow the procedure.
But I don't care enough to actually do anything about it...I'm just going to cover my own ass, get some popcorn, and watch the fireworks.
3/17/2010 5:26 PM
Dear American liberals, leftists, social progressives, socialists, Marxists, Obama supporters, et al:
We have stuck together since the late 1950's, but the whole of this latest election process has made me realize that I want a divorce. I know we tolerated each other for many years for the sake of future generations, but sadly, this relationship has run its course. Our two ideological sides of America cannot and will not ever agree on what is right, so let's just end it on friendly terms. We can smile, slate it up to irreconcilable differences, and go on our own ways.
Here is a model dissolution agreement:
Our two groups can equitably divide up the country by landmass each taking a portion. That will be the difficult part, but I am sure our two sides can come to a friendly agreement. After that it should be relatively easy! Our respective representatives can effortlessly divide other assets since both sides have such distinct and disparate tastes. We don't like redistributive taxes so you can keep them. You are welcome to the liberal judges and the ACLU. Since you hate guns and war, we'll take our firearms, the cops, the NRA and the military. You can keep Oprah, Michael Moore, and Rosie O'Donnell. We'll keep the capitalism, greedy corporations, pharmaceutical companies, Wal-Mart, and Wall Street. You can have your beloved homeless, homeboys, hippies, and illegal aliens. We'll keep the hot Alaskan hockey moms, greedy CEO's, and rednecks. We'll keep the Bibles and give you NBC and Hollywood. You can make nice with Iran , Palestine , and France and we'll retain the right t o invade and hammer places that threaten us. You can have the peaceniks and war protestors. When our allies or way of life are under assault, we'll provide them job security. We'll keep our Judeo-Christian Values. You are welcome to Islam, Scientology, Humanism, and Shirley McClain. You can have the U.N. But we will no longer be paying the bill. We'll keep the SUV's, pickup trucks, and oversized luxury cars. You can take every Subaru station wagon you can find. You can give everyone healthcare, if you can find any practicing doctors (that is practicing, Howard Dean) who will follow to your turf (sic). We'll continue to believe healthcare is a luxury and not a right. We'll keep The Battle Hymn of the Republic and The National Anthem. I'm sure you'll be happy to substitute Imagine, I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing, Kum Ba Ya or We Are the World. We'll practice trickle down economics and you can give trickle up poverty its best shot. Since it often so offends you we'll keep our History, our Name, and our Flag. Would you agree to this? If so please pass it along to other likeminded patriots and if you do not agree just hit delete and hang on. In the spirit of friendly parting, I'll bet you ANWAR on who will need whose help in 15 years.
Sincerely,
John J. Wall
Law Student and an American
3/17/2010 5:27 PM
But I don't care enough to actually do anything about it...I'm just going to cover my own ass, get some popcorn, and watch the fireworks.
Yeah, fuck 'em all. I'm with you. I don't plan on getting off of my ass for people who are too lazy or stupid to take care of themselves. Americans don't hold their politicians accountable, don't understand the issues, and don't even try to learn. Americans treat politics like a giant WWF match. Which is probably accurate since it's pretty much rigged. So, fuck it...I'm voting for The Ultimate Warrior in 2012.
Derogatory terms for people with different ideas is a part of the problem...using terms like teabagger, repuke, liberal pansies, etc just makes things worse. And it make the person using the phrase sound like a total moron.
3/17/2010 5:41 PM
I think this is a little too clever by half.
First, if the federal government is not limited in scope and reach by the enumerated powers in the Constitution, what exactly is it limited by?
Now, it's a constitution, not a step by step, all encompassing instruction manual. Still, it seems federal acts must be connected to some grant of power, no?
It's pretty clear the founders envisioned limits on federal power. If we are going to say we aren't going to be bound by the rules from over 200 years ago, fine but let's say it and be clear and not do make stuff up as we go along and pretend to still be living under the constitution as we know it.
As for some of your examples, I'm pretty sure Puerto Rico and the Mexican Cession were spoils of war and the price of peace. And as was said earlier, the other land purchases were part of treaties, a power the government clearly has.
As for vets, I'm pretty sure that that is part of the whole 'raising armies' thing. The founding generation dealt with veteran's issues after the American Revolution. Sadly, they also set the precedent of scewing vets as well.
I think it's possible to support traditional limited government without being a crank about it or abandoning the ideals of the Constitutino.
3/17/2010 5:48 PM
Anon 5:26 - Yes, the government can make treaties, but authorizing the funds to carry out the actions of the treaty are the question. The Senate ratifies treaties, but the House has to initiate the funding bill. There's nothing in the Constitution that says the House can allot money for this purpose. Unless, of course, you think that if we were to have a trade treaty with, say, Luxembourg that requires both parties to provide single-payer health care (in the "worker protections" section) would make HCR Constitutional.
(Re: the Louisiana Purchase, Jefferson actually sat on the treaty for several weeks wondering whether the House actually had the Constitutional authority. He ended up going with the "necessary and proper" clause, which can basically be used to cover anything.)
3/17/2010 5:50 PM
Drew,
The case could also be made that providing health care and education for young people so they can grow up to become better soldiers could also be part of the "raising armies" clause...
3/17/2010 5:51 PM
The case could also be made that providing health care and education for young people so they can grow up to become better soldiers could also be part of the "raising armies" clause...
I would support that idea if every child given health care and an education had to serve in the military. You shouldn't get something for nothing.
3/17/2010 5:59 PM
"Unless, of course, you think that if we were to have a trade treaty with, say, Luxembourg that requires both parties to provide single-payer health care (in the "worker protections" section) would make HCR Constitutional."
--It might make HCR more constitutional but it wouldn't make the current bill any less stupid.
Geez...Dems really do love them some HCR. It seems like they frame every discussion for passing HCR. Keep following your party line sweet hearts...do it for the children. Don't use logic.
BTW I think the Republicans are idiots too.
3/17/2010 6:04 PM
The case could also be made that providing health care and education for young people so they can grow up to become better soldiers could also be part of the "raising armies" clause...
Any case can be made, the question is, is the definition and power what was meant by those words when they were included in the Constitution?
I don’t think playing word games to try game the system does anyone any good. Either the Constitution means something in and of itself or it’s simply a matter of who can wedge and distort clear meaning and intent to suit their personal preferences.
Look at the case law around the Commerce Clause, it’s become a catchall to allow the federal government to do just about anything.
I try to remember that not everything I like is automatically constitutional nor is everything I don’t like by definition unconstitutional.
3/17/2010 6:24 PM
John J Wall,
I am a pretty liberal guy, but then I read your post. WOW!!!! My eyes shot open and I changed my political ideology based on your post.
Then I thought about it for a second.
I decided that you are just a F@#$%ING MORON!!! and I wouldn't change my ideology after all.
In case you didn't notice, from time to time, military members and veterans post and comment on this blog.
Maybe you should realize that, while many of those posters are conservative, some of us who have actually spent time in the military, serving our nation are liberal.
Maybe that doesn't stack up to your "Law Student" experience, but don't lay claim to the military in your stupid little rant.
Jackass.
3/17/2010 8:34 PM
Drew,
When the U.S.Constitution was ratified it was understood clearly by educated and literate voters. Supreme Court justices were not required to be lawyers, and politicians were certainly never careerists.
Now, only lawyers are deemed capable of interpreting complex constitutional law. BH cannot, and neither can you nor I.
Lawyers currently comprise some 60%of the entire U.S. Senate, a highly disproprtionate number of the House of Reps., and the entire judiciary. They have pensions and medical care surpassing private palns. So much for any system of checks and balances once envisioned.
See anything wrong with this picture so far? Like Brittain's parliament better? Good, because that is what we are headed.
The current wealthy and privileged will be America's nobility. How will your kids and grandkids get ahead? By excelling on high school exit scores or inheriting your vast wealth. - So much for the former land of opportunity that elevated the entire world's living standard.
When and if American exceptionalism dies, socialist countries and totalitarian regimes will rejoice at the stupidity of a peeople who once had almost infinite hope, but threw it away.
Who will prosper then? As customary, only the rich and powerful elite. Who is ready to relinquish the prized legacy of America? Not I.
Runner
3/17/2010 8:50 PM
Back to Joel's bait-with-disrespect points:
Funny that you, too, should be mentioning the Louisiana Purchase today, Joel. So did Barack Obama.
He says that 'the Louisiana Purchase will help with the earthquake in Hawaii.'
See link here.
A statement with makes just about as much sense as trying to sandbag fellow citizens who think that the U.S. government has run amock.
3/17/2010 9:22 PM
Drew St.____? Is that you?
3/17/2010 9:45 PM
Two words: Term Limits
Of course via proper Constitutional Amendment.
3/17/2010 10:17 PM
Please speak v e r y s l o w when dealing with progressive liberal Demtards. They are suffering from years of indoctrination by Statist ideology. These folks have several forms of mental illness and they seek help from a Nanny known as Big Brother. They feel best when they are enslaved and tightly controlled by their Nanny. Most of these liberal weetards were edukated in government schools by teachers who are also progressive Demturds. So from a young age they have been fed the liberal lies and they have a tough time dealing with life without their Nanny slavemasters. Most of these progressives have a disdain for the U.S. Constitution because it does not facilitate and tolerate their slavemaster’s heavyhanded Nannyism.
3/18/2010 4:34 AM
Will the last American leaving D.C. take down the flag before the Marxists put their new one up.
3/18/2010 4:41 AM
SOme tea partiers have also bought into being truthers, blogger. Just be careful....truthers are into the tea party as well.
3/18/2010 7:23 AM
What is it with you people calling for term limits? We gave you term limits - it's right there in the Constitution in black and white. Maybe we should have included a glossary. We called them "elections."
If you people spent more time watching over your elected representatives and less time screaming epithets at each other, you wouldn't have pissed away all the rights we Flaming Liberals wrestled from George III.
Sign me
Thomas Jefferson, disgusted.
3/18/2010 10:52 AM
“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” Thomas Paine
3/18/2010 11:37 AM
“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” Thomas Paine
3/18/2010 11:37 AM
I think there's only snippet of this rant that I actually buy into--that the State of Texas should be returned to Mexico...
3/18/2010 12:25 PM
C'mon down, Yankee boy. Maybe you can -- Jimmuh Carter-like -- work out a deal with Mexico.
Maybe not.
3/18/2010 1:14 PM
It is revealing to look at states run by democrat leadership and their present day financial conditions. Some states that seem to be near bankruptcy that have reaped the negatives of heavy democrat policy include but are not limited to California, Ohio, Michigan, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania etc… Those states are in very bad financial condition and have democrat leadership to thank. Liberal (progressive) democrats seem to be like a type of cancer and ruin most things that they infect.
3/18/2010 2:14 PM
Yeah but, who will wind up staying in/getting in when we go to the polls to vote the rascals out?
3/18/2010 2:36 PM
Yes, sometimes it seems like the lesser of two evils. The last democrat president was impeached and this one is well on his way to join that dishonorable tradition except they will not let him finish his term like the last progressive liberal.
This anti-health bill is something. They just found another obvious bribe in the bill for ND. The Chicago and DC way just keeps rolling
3/18/2010 2:57 PM
Rubber Ducky,
"Reductio ad absurdum with these bozos is like shooting fish in a barrel."
A rather boastful claim from a guy using the image of a ducky with a condom on its bill. Those of us familiar with the principle of reductio ad absurdum don't know why it is so easy for someone of your great intellectual prowess for one reason: you fail to explain what argument you easily reduce to absurdity, and you have bothered to offer nary a single salient fact.
Nice name-calling, however!
I am sure a ducky like you can pull the condom off his bill and talk to us as intelligent equals instead of talking down to us as the challenged minions you once commanded.
How about it sport?
Randy
3/18/2010 3:01 PM
Sorry, Randy...but the Duck is a Democrat through-and-through. If he were to not call someone names, he'd be speaking out of school.
And it doesn't matter how many times you tell him that name-calling points only toward the name call-er...he just can't process that truth.
3/18/2010 4:12 PM
You said it, brother! Limitless power for the government, because they know best. Except when people who disagree with me are in power; those guys are a bunch of incompetent assholes.
3/18/2010 6:00 PM
Wow, BH. You've certainly opened up a can of pissed-off worms with this post.
I'm no "Constitutional Scholar", however, I do consider myself to be a fervennt student of it. My reading of the power of the government to purchase land are contained in the second to last paragraph of Article I, Section 8, where it discusses the buying of land. It lists some things, but I can't see how that list would be all inclusive.
Maybe I'm stretching...
3/18/2010 6:46 PM
Idaho steps up to the plate with 30plus states ready to sue Big Brother over the anti-healthcare bill. It is about time states assert themselves as they are the source of authority over most matters of government..
3/18/2010 7:18 PM
I've decided to buy into the political philosophy frequently expressed by Tea Party types that the Federal Government shouldn't Constitutionally be allowed to do anything not expressly specified in the Constitution. To that end, I'm calling for all previous acts of the Federal Government that were not specifically allowed by the Constitution to be reversed. "Noting that there's nothing in the Constitution that allows the Federal Government to pay another government for land to add to the United States, I'm calling on all strict Constitutionalists to join me in demanding the immediate return of the Louisiana Purchase to France, Florida and Puerto Rico to Spain, Alaska to Russia, and the Mexican Cession and Gadsden Purchase to Mexico".........
Top notch liberal diatribe, with a truly disgusting elitist tone. Go fuck yourself.......
3/18/2010 9:21 PM
Sarcasm is the lowest form of humor, Joel. Suggest you surface and surrender on this one.
3/18/2010 10:02 PM
The progressive liberals (Statists) are scared to death of the U.S. Constitution. The Constitution was created by founders many times more intelligent than any Statist. Statists want a totalitarian overload to change their diapers and control their lives and to control every aspect of their lives. Statists are about Nannyism and not about freedom or liberty from tyranny. A statists willingly accepts a tyrant to wire guide them. The problem with statism is that it always works out poorly for the enslaved people at the hands of the tyrants. Statists are intolerant and while they claim tolerance, it is only used as a tool until they can figure out how to remove any opposition and enslave everyone. Statists want total control and coexistence is only a means to an end for them. Statists use the word democrat to paint a picture of being fair but tyranny is anything but fair. Statist have existed throughout history and while there are many different degrees of statism, all have the same goal, tyranny. Statists have functioned under names such as Nazis, Communists, Socialists, Fascists and now they appear repackaged as progressive liberal democrats. Saul Alinsky’s community organizing and rules for radicals ideology is a standard playbook for many statists. They label their opposition in an attempt to discredit the messenger to invalidate the message. Statists often seek to rewrite history in an effort to paint a different paradigm than really existed. Statist usually hate any mention of President Ronald Reagan because his genuine style of leadership with substance scares them to death. Thankfully, the progressive liberal democrats lack the mind control, manipulation, and propaganda to make all people as deluded and ignorant as the fantasy utopia that they float around in.
3/19/2010 7:26 AM
This is the preamble to OUR Constitution:
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Note the words "general welfare". This is what our founding fathers invisioned when they decided to "cecede" from England. Most of us "socialist/communist/marxist" believe that health care is a right, not a priviledge, even for those that I don't agree with (most of you on this site). It is easy to blame others, point fingers, call names, and repeat Fox News talking points when you are privilegded enough to have health care under a socialist model (the VA), I wonder who pays for that care???
I serve my country because I believe in protecting the rights of everyone in this country under the constitution, to read how others interpret this document because they live in fear as a result years of listening to Rush Limbaugh/Fox News/ GOP leadership is dissappointing. I have served for 14 years, 8 years longer than I planned because my son has a "pre-existing" condition. If I were to leave the military, I would be expected to pay $1200/month in health care premiums to cover my family. These premiums would go up every year and may not cover each expense. Also, that insurance may not be there when I need it, does that sound American? How would your thoughts on HCR change if you were unexpectedly hospitalized and your "Insurance" provider dropped your coverage? Food for thought....
MMC USN
3/19/2010 8:44 AM
You think that the VA is quality health care? How about health care on Indian reservations? You know that MA has govt. run health care and it is a failure that requires the federal government (the taxpayers) to subsidize it from it going under. If MA's health care was such a wonderful success then why haven’t they been using that as there poster child? After all when you can prove something that says more than anything else about prospective future success. You might want to research the track record of government provided health care. The issue is not does the health care industry need a fix. It needs many fixes but it needs genuine leadership and not typical political mismanagement. Big government has a history or running everything that they manage into the ground. Post Office, broke. Education, broke and a failure. They make nice promises, wonderful projections and lofty goals but their inability to operate programs successfully, effectively and efficiently is well documented. A few days ago in Ohio Obama made a statement that under his plan businesses would save 3,000% per person on health care expenses. Does that sound odd to you? Does’nt such a ridiculous number make you question the validity and truth to that? When has the government ever saved any money on any program? There is a term in business called TANSTAAFL, it stands for “There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch” and when someone is telling you that more people will be insured for less money then how does that math really work out? There needs to be real fixes. Why are insurance company’s prevented from operating without borders? Why are ambulance chasing lawyers allowed to bilk people? Free market competition is a wonderful thing. Strong companies survive and those who lose the competition take their place in line. I wish that your child would be guaranteed the best medical care available but this fiasco will not result in the best care, except for the rule makers and authority figures. Real problems like health care and education do not get fixed because big government rolls in and leads the pack. Thinking human beings allowed to operate in the free market can fix any problems if the onerous governmental restraints are taken off. Politicians are elected by the people of their respective states and they are supposed to serve their constituents best interests. They are public servants but it seems like some have turned public service into their personal industry and they operate for their selfish motivations and career opportunism. They are the people’s servants and not the other way around. Your child needs health care but what these folks are cooking up behind the scenes is a sham and a farce.
3/19/2010 9:20 AM
MMC, are you going to do 6 more years or is 14 the limit for you?
3/19/2010 10:02 AM
Wow...love the comments! I also served and continue to serve. I consider myself a patriotic American and I also consider myself on the liberal side, at least compared to the commenters on here. I agree with Navy Blue Cougar - nobody has any right to make claim to the military. It always seems like right wing, conservative republicans try to pretend that the military is on their side. BS.
I love the free market economy. It works great for most everything. However, health care isn't a free market. It isn't a free market when large insurance corporations have so much power they can set prices. What do I mean? - have a large health insurance company paying the bills and you get cheaper, negotiated prices. Who bothers shopping around when the insurance company pays? You'd be lucky if you can even determine what the costs are. But try having your own health savings account and being responsible for your own health care expenses and see how far you get?
Besides some things shouldn't be left up to the free market economy. Do we really want survival of the fittest in education and health care? I guess from some of the comments - the answer is yes! Health care and education only for those who can afford it, right? I think someone said that health care was a luxury. I love this country, but if basic health care and education become a luxury that only some citizens can afford - I will move to another country because the US will be a miserable place to live.
The fact is we pay for other people's health care already. The costs are just higher because that health care happens in a emergency room when the health issues are so severe that those without insurance are forces to seek care there instead of getting cheaper preventative care.
Society also pays for poor education, poor parenting and lack of intensive early childhood education for at risk children (read those born into poverty) in welfare, loss of productivity, crime and justice system costs. But I guess we should just let that problem fester and continue the cycle of dependence and poverty. Guess what, those in poverty tend to have more children that those that are better off. The well off will will end up being outnumbered!
In the end though, we all lose if that is the society we create.
3/19/2010 10:14 AM
Interesting insight. Thank you for your service.
3/19/2010 10:24 AM
BTW - I'm not saying this health care bill is great or that the education system is great. There are lots of problems with each, but lets fix the problems. I have a beef with folks that think the government should just get out of everything but the strictest of literal constitutional interpretations and let it be a free for all for everyone. I think we as a society and thru government mandate have some basic responsibilities to each other with respect to ensuring the 'general welfare'. I get tired of the "I got a job, I work hard, I got mine, screw you...you want some...you had better work for it" when it applies to such basics as education and health care - things that are essential for our society, regardless if you are a fat lazy slob who doesn't work. And no, I don't think most folks will just become welfare queens and live off the dole. Most folks (with a few exceptions) want to make an honest living and earn money so they can achieve the 'good things' in life.
3/19/2010 10:28 AM
I do not think that anyone is suggesting a free for all. Maybe the meanings of the words and intentions are sort of crossing the wires so to speak.
Here is a more descriptive term, Responsible, Honest and Accountable Leadership in Government.
Maybe some people could at least agree on that description?
3/19/2010 10:33 AM
This certainly didn't take long to break down in to the usual crap...though the use of "statist" as a new way to quickly stereotype people is sort of new.
It is amazing how certain so many here are that they absolutely know all the answers. That they know what the founders wanted when even many of the founders understood that they couldn't possibly know what this country would need in even a hundred years.
The anger, vitriol and the need to have such nice little labels so that anyone who disagrees is put into a category is disheartening but a good reflection of the overall state of discourse in the country right now.
3/19/2010 10:54 AM
"Taxation without represenation is tyranny."
And...50%+ (and growing) of the people in the country these days do not feel that their best interests are being represented.
3/19/2010 11:29 AM
@11:29;
That's okay, about that many pay no net income tax.
3/19/2010 12:59 PM
A thinking person to make a statement like this is very revealing, “That they know what the founders wanted when even many of the founders understood that they couldn't possibly know what this country would need in even a hundred years”.
If you really don’t know much about the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights then maybe you could go to the library and do some reading.
This type of a statement is from a very ignorant and foolish person. The founding fathers knew exactly what could and would happen if leaders deviated from what they established. It is not complicated. The only logical reason to really be this ignorant is simple complacency and laziness. Someone this ignorant should not vote because they have no idea what the issues and facts are. Just stumble down the road and the rulers will take care of me. Man, get a clue and then make decisions. You want to be ruled by a Statist instead of governed by a leader then that is your choice but I can recommend millions of people who would question that approach.
The founding fathers just kicked the tyrants out and had lived under tyranny so they knew exactly what the options were. Thomas Paine even went to France and saw democracy in action with the guillotines and heads rolling. We are a republic and the word “democracy” is not in any founding documents.
It is people with a lazy and complacent attitude that allows tyrants like those in many areas of government rule their lives.
Lets say you have a business and you hire a person to perform a task and the next day they come up to you and tell you that they are going to reverse the rolls and you will now work for them. Would you allow and tolerate that crap one second? Your government representatives work for you, they are your servants and not the other way around.
If you want to put your head in the sand then that is your choice but others choose to keep these peoples feet to the fire through voting and communicating issues with them.
Thomas Paine
3/19/2010 4:36 PM
I'm sick of the tea party 'taxation without representation' BS! The majority of voters put these folks in office in a free and fair election regardless of whether you voted for them or not - there was an election and our electeds represent the will of the majority of the people who voted! Sorry you didn't get your way. Now, if you don't like it, change it, make your voice heard, convince other people and vote for someone else, but STOP crying about taxation without representation!
3/19/2010 4:40 PM
Just because they are elected and regardless if they are your candididate does not mkean that they have free reign to rule as crooks and tyrants.
You dont mind taxation, ok, your taxes just went up 300%, STFU and pay it! Dont complain, just pay it, after all you dont care.
Responsibility and accountability. These crooks do not have a blank check. If you dont care about society now, what about your grandkids? Do you care about their future?
3/19/2010 4:52 PM
Re veterans benefits, I just remembered that retirees are technically reservists, so one could stretch funding of the military to their benefits.
3/19/2010 5:38 PM
Oz, are you talking about COLA aspect?
3/19/2010 5:58 PM
There is a solution to health care that is run by the free market, and will save Americans money and make health care affordable to all. There are better solutions to the current bill, but the media/congress/president don't want to hear any solutions except their own gov't solution.
Here's what we need to do:
1. Amend the McCarran-Ferguson Act to allow interstate competition in health insurance.
We can't have a free market in health insurance until Congress eliminates the antitrust exemption protecting health insurance companies from competition.
2. The exclusive regulator of insurance companies will be the state where the company's home office is located.
Every insurance company in the country would then move to incorporate in the state with the fewest government mandates.
3. Prohibit the federal government from regulating insurance companies, except for normal laws and regulations that apply to all companies.
Freed from burdensome state and federal mandates, insurers would be allowed to offer a wide variety of insurance plans, finally giving consumers a real choice.
Health care is not a right, and is indeed a privilege. People who say it's a right do not understand the definition of either term. I wrote about this here.
Last year, while in Perth on business, I presented myself to the Royal Perth Hospital emergency room with a 102.3 F fever, on a mid-Saturday afternoon. Australia has a public health care system. This is what I observed while there. The ER was dirty, and there were drops of what appeared to be dried blood on the BP machine. They had about 2 dozen of us there that afternoon in a room with 5 beds. There were supposed to be 8. We were stacked like cordwood, sitting on plastic folding chairs. They started my IV while I was sitting in the chair. The doctors and nurses would just go down the line of chairs and do their triage there. There was no privacy whatsoever. I had a fever, they didn't know from what, yet I was still sitting there shoulder to shoulder with everyone else. Not a thought to putting me in quarantine. I finally got on a bed for all of about 10 minutes, just long enough for the doctor to examine me, then it was back in a chair in the corner where a bed was supposed to be. The staff was nice and seemed to be competent, but they didn’t have all the tools they needed. They had to frequently wait for something they needed before they could treat someone. Eventually, I got what I needed, but I didn’t make it back to my hotel room until after 11PM. So, there’s a 1st hand look at socialized medicine for you.
Australians are allowed to buy separate private insurance, but at exorbitant costs. Even still, they say that they would rather pay it then go to a public “death trap” – their words, not mine. One afternoon, while eating lunch, my counterpart there had a piece of food lodged in his throat. He wasn’t choking, but it was definitely obstructing his airway. I offered to drive him to the ER. He looked at me squarely in the eye and said “I’d rather die first, than go to one of those shit holes.” Eventually, he dislodged it and was fine. I asked him why he didn’t want to go to the ER, and he told me of a friend that died in the ER over something very similar.
My friends, this is what we have to look forward to if our government has its way. But unlike the Aussie’s, we won’t get an option to buy separate insurance. If you really think government run health care is the way to go, then get in line. You won’t have a choice but to.
3/19/2010 5:59 PM
My aunt and uncle were visiting England and she had a stroke. Their experience with socialized medicine is all I need to know that America's health care is not perfect and needs some fixing but it makes most of teh world look like a bandaid station. Talk to some Canadians who have had to actually use their med system, the stories are frightening. If you never need a doctor then maybe it does not matter but when you need them and older people do use them a lot more the performance and capabilities does make a difference.
3/19/2010 6:12 PM
5:58
Just pensions in general. You could interpret them as pay for reserve service, I guess.
3/19/2010 6:22 PM
Oz, you might be onto something.
3/19/2010 6:27 PM
Oz
But for USN at 30 years its straight to retired list and not Fleet Reserve. Also other branches might have different time windows. Might be worth researching.
3/19/2010 6:31 PM
I withdraw it then. I'll admit I never really looked at it that closely.
3/19/2010 7:09 PM
To answer one question...yes I'm in for 20, I can't afford not to.
Sonarman:
I appreciate your personal story of your experience in Autralia, it does open many eyes to how things can become if there is no regulation within the health care system; however, for every one story of poor health care in another country there are 200 more frightening stories of Americans in this country. Here is an example:
"Keith Blessington had just been told that he was eligible for private health insurance to replace his government-funded COBRA coverage when it ran out.
Then, the 55-year-old New Hampshire resident was diagnosed with late-stage stomach cancer, and everything changed.
Although the COBRA coverage paid for most of the cost of his initial surgery, by the time he got out of the hospital having had half his stomach and eight cancerous lymph nodes removed, Blessington found himself ineligible for virtually any private health insurance, because his cancer was now a daunting preexisting condition.
Blessington is still one of the lucky ones, because he managed to secure insurance through New Hampshire's high-risk insurance pool. However, the coverage is costly, $1,120 a month to be exact.
Just to survive while he was unable to work, Blessington borrowed $40,000 on his credit card and cashed out his 401K retirement plan.
'I have enough money for another month or so to live on. My savings are gone.'"- US NEWS Feb 5, 2009
This happens everyday, everyday.
Do I believe this version of HCR is the best? Not in a long shot. I do believe that it is vital to our national security (security of our citizenry) to prevent the Insurance Companies (IC), not doctors, from deciding who lives and who dies. Preventing IC's from dropping a persons coverage when they need it, preventing IC's from denying a person due to pre-exiting conditions, and preventing IC's from raising rates w/o due cause (like Aetna in CA) is an important first start to reform.
A Harvard study just concluded that the mortality rate for the uninsured in this country is 40% higher than those with insurance and increases 1%/year. This means that by 2023, the mortality rate for those uninsured will be 53%, the same as it was in 1844. This is 11% higher than the rate for those that quit smoking! Have we declined as a society that much?
Unfortunately, I have reached the conclusion that no real reform can occur in this country until we have campaign finance reform. When corporations can buy our politicians, the PEOPLE our left out in the cold.
It is a sad state of affairs when we allow our own citizens to DIE because they can't afford to LIVE!
MMC USN
3/19/2010 7:32 PM
WOW!!! There's way too much tension in this thread. As I've done many times before, let me start by saying, "I've taken the time to read all of the comments, and absorb the opinions of the many."
But, now it's time for my 2 cents. I believe the fundamental problem with our system of government is that the majority of voters are misinformed (that's a polite way of saying they don't take the time to inform themselves on the issues/candidates). As a result of this, voters find themselves voting for the incumbent because they recognize the name. A couple examples: Ted Kennedy, Strom Thurmond come to mind.
It is this lack of knowledge that is the basis for the electoral college, and why the majority vote has little to do with the actual election of the POTUS.
So, voters are ignorant (sorry, misinformed), and this causes a breakdown in the system developed by our founding fathers. The intent of our congress was to rotate 1/3 of the congress out of office every 2 years to maintain a fresh perspective that is representative of the people (hence the title "representative").
Originally, serving a term in congress was considered a burden that took away from the responsibilities of being a businessman or some other member of society. It's when people turned representing your neighborhood or region from a side duty into a profession, that we began to go off the deep end.
I don't take issue with lobbyists as long as they lobby in an ethical manner. I don't take issue with members of congress trying to gain federal funding for projects within their congressional district. I don't even take issue with trying to help out the less fortunate by using my tax dollars.
However, I do take issue with helping people who won't help themselves (why get a job when I can make just as much from welfare). I do take issue with the masses who don't take responsibility for their own actions/decisions and expect the government to "rescue" them. (i.e. "the housing crisis"). I do take issue with people who complain about our education system but think it's ok to pay the person who teaches children to read and right a pittance while a college drop-out makes millions because he can catch a football.
I could go on for days on end about the hypocracy of our great nation, but in the end, I wouldn't trade the nation I live in and once defended for any other nation on this earth. But, I do wish our culture would take a step back and stop blaming "the government" for all of the problems, and start taking responsibility for what goes on. And maybe, just maybe, start asking "what can I do to make my community and country a better place?"
3/19/2010 8:55 PM
I can't believe people buy into the Free Market fairy tale! If the market is so damn efficient, why do Americans pay more for health care than any other country and only get mediocre care? Maybe instead of basing the debate on feelings and ideology, we could try looking at actual, verifiable facts.
1) The US spends about 17% of its GDP on healthcare. Most countries with universal coverage pay between 8 - 10%; none pay more than 12%. And that's percentage -- actual per capita costs are even more disparate.
2) Despite the enormous amount spent, our quality of care ranks pretty much dead average for industrialized countries.
3) Other countries have found a lot of different ways to implement universal coverage. The one thing they all agree on: for-profit insurance providers wreck the whole system. While a system could absorb the <2% profits the insurers keep, they produce huge (and deliberate)inefficiencies. Admin costs in most countries is around 5-6%; Medicare is about 4%. The free-market insurers of the US? 15%!
4) There's no shortage of dire warnings about how unbearable the costs will be. My pay is well above the national average; I pay about 7.2% of my gross for health insurance premiums, and still have to pay deductibles, co-pays, etc. My employer kicks in 2-3 times what I pay. Compare that to the 7.2% I pay to Medicare and Social Security combined. If they tripled the Medicare tax to 3%, but I don't have to pay a big premium, I'd still be about 5% ahead.
I'm not really a liberal; I don't want healthcare reform because I think everyone should love one another and take care of our brothers. But the free market has had 50 years to get its shit together, and it has produced a non-system that costs more, covers fewer people, and generally drives me insane every time I have to deal with it. This bill isn't the best solution possible, but we have to start somewhere. Leaving the system like it is is just unworkable.
3/20/2010 1:05 AM
That explains why people come here for care... like the Canadian PM. Honestly, if your own head of government feels the need to get a vital procedure done outside the country, just how much confidence should we have in that system?
Also, if you think health care is anything approaching a free market, you're nuts. "Primarily private-sector" and "free market" are not equivalent.
3/20/2010 5:43 AM
If you're wealthy enough, you will always be able to afford better care than others. Even if we go entirely single payer, somewhere there will be boutique hospitals and doctors that those who can afford it will pony up for. Just because one rich man in Canada sought the best physician he could find in the USA, because he could afford it, does not make our system the envy of the world.
In fact, I would say that anyone that can spend a moment looking at the statistics would argue that many countries SHOULD be the envy of the US. We spend the most money per capita for a mediocre outcome for a small majority of our citizens. Some great system we have here!
The idea that we can cut the insurance companies free to do whatever they want, and then somehow, someway they'll do the right thing is pure fantasy. Their financial incentives will push them to do the exact opposite of "the right thing". It's intuitively obvious that to make the most money possible as an insurance company, you would drop as many sick patients as possible while charging healthy people as much as possible. I can't see how that would possibly make for a good health care outcome.
Further the current system is completely untenable. If we don't pass HCR now, than we'll pass some other form of it in 5 or 10 years anyway, out of necessity. The idea that we can just continue on as we have been indefinitely is pure fantasy. Eventually, we'll hit a crisis point, as more and more people are uninsured and premiums and costs go up and up. I too have reservations about the current bill, but like TARP, doing nothing is simply not a plausible option.
3/21/2010 12:04 AM
It is nuts to want a health care system patterned after Canada, the UK, Sweden or any of the other health care utopias that so many here seem to crave. There is no "right" to health care, and health care is already provided to everybody, including illegal aliens - largely the reason California is on the brink of bankruptcy. The truth is, and the left is bending over backwards to try to obfuscate it, is that the debate is over health insurance, not health care. The needed reform is to efficiently control costs - something the legislation likely to be rammed through tomorrow will do nothing towards, except possibly the subsidizing of it with our tax dollars. If meaningful tort reform were enacted and insurers allowed to compete across state lines, subject only to the regulations (other than the state laws that apply to all companies) of the state their corporate offices were located in, costs could be effectively controlled. The market could than support a vast number of service tiers, with insurers freed from state mandates to cover things like substance abuse, mental health counseling, sexual health stuff (like Viagra, for crying out loud). There would be markets for higher level tiers for those willing to pay for stuff the rest of us don't want. Those types of things, and also the way defensive medicine has to be practiced, is the reason costs are escalating the way they are, and will continue to be. We have the best health care in the world, for the most part - Congress and the fraud in the White House are intent on screwing that up, despite the clear wishes of the electorate.
3/21/2010 12:38 AM
In what way do we have the "Best Health Care System in the world"? Name one factual piece of evidence that materially supports this claim? We rank about fortieth (and dropping!) in infant mortality, about 15th (and dropping!) in preventable deaths, 24th in life expectancy, and so on. And we achieve that by paying more than anyone else in the world, per capita. In fact about the only place where we seem to fare well compared to other nations of the world is in the health of our senior citizens on Medicare, a socialized health-care for all system.
Also, while I'll agree that tort reform is probably a part of health care cost reductions, to single it out as the end all be all shows that you have not been following this issue very closely. Estimates put the cost of medical lawsuits, as adding about 50-75 billion per year to the cost of health care. That's a mere drop in the bucket of a system that costs about 2.5 trillion dollars annually.
I don't really see how opening up the markets is going to lower prices. It sure as shit didn't happen with my cable bill...
3/21/2010 1:21 AM
"I'm not really a liberal; I don't want healthcare reform because I think everyone should love one another and take care of our brothers."
This statement made my head spin but I am sure is also a view held by many. To love one another and take care of others is now "liberal"? I thought those a central tenants of Christianity and almost every other major religion. Since Conservatism (as defined by todays standards) and religion are joined at the hip in this country that statement is really jaw dropping...but honest.
3/21/2010 8:47 AM
To the gentlemen who believes the Founders knew what the demands of the 21st century would be I suggest you actually read the words of people like Madison, Jefferson, Hamilton and others and not cherry pick what makes you feel good about yourself and supports what you want to believe. Doubt you will, you'll just call me ignorant and make up more things that distort the real writings and intent of the Framers
3/21/2010 8:51 AM
Medicare is not the main reason that senior citizens are doing better statistically. The health care provided by doctors and the technology is the reason.
If the govt had its way the old folks would be taken to a ditch and treated like the Japanese and Germans treated their captives.
Do not ever think that the govt unrestrained is a safe thing. Power has a funny way of skewing some peoples motivation.
Dems are not all bad but some of them have motivations that are Anti-American.
California is a living example of democratic utopia but it is a total and dismal failure.
Now it is being unleashed on all of America. How the mighty have fallen.
An old Russian prime minister beat his shoe on a desk and noted that his country would take us without firing a shot and now it seems they have occupied the WH and places of Congress and the Senate.
Delusion is a funny thing.
3/21/2010 8:59 AM
"Medicare is not the main reason that senior citizens are doing better statistically. The health care provided by doctors and the technology is the reason."
This is a meaningless statement. I could just as well argue that doctors and technology don't improve health care for the elderly, it's the treatments they give. And then argue that it's not the treatments that improve the medical outlook for senior citizens, but the effect they have on the body.
Medicare is the means that pays the doctors and pays for the equipment (in part) that provides the treatments that cause the effects on the body.
Don't believe me, call some insurance companies and tell them you'd like to buy a comprehensive plan for your 75 year old mother and see what it costs.... if they'll even offer to sell you one
3/21/2010 9:57 AM
Dont worry the Politboro and Health czars will take real good care of granny and grandpa.
These politicans can not effectively lead a starving dog to a bowl of gravy amd you trust them to keep their promises to fix health care, lol.
Maybe you have enough of that crack that you are smoking to go around.
3/21/2010 11:03 AM
@ anonymous 0121:
So, what country do doctors world-wide want to come to in order to practice medicine? What country to people world-wide tend to want to come for medical procedures if they have the means? The stats you cite, especially the ones regarding infant mortality and life expectancy are a crock. There are no accepted standards for measuring infant mortality, for instance. If you investigate, you will find that most of the countries ahead in those statistics don't count a birth as a "live birth" until the baby is a day old. Also, many countries will not count premature babies in their infant mortality statistics, especially before about the 28th week - not so in the US, though.
3/21/2010 11:11 AM
Doctors and patients are racing to and standing in line to get into England, Canada, Australia, Cuba all the really top quality medical systems.
Under Obama care you will get a Do-it-yourself heart surgery book with a classy audio tape to walk yourself through it. Or if you want the delux surgery you get the new best selling book, "Surgery for Dummies" with a coupon for Home Depot to buy your surgical instrumnets from.
3/21/2010 2:06 PM
@ anon 8:47 AM:
I don't think you can read the New Testament without realizing that Jesus was a flaming liberal and Leftist. Just the Sermon on the Mount alone would put him well into that camp. If he was preaching that hippie-commie philosophy today, Fox News would be leading the push to crucify! Glenn Beck just recently made a statement urging people to leave churches (specifically Catholic churches, those liberal breeding pits) that push "social justice" as part of their philosophy.
Fortunately, not being a Christian, I don't feel compelled to care for my brothers. But as a rational person, I have come to the conclusion (based on evidence and hard numbers, not ideology and emotional appeals) that not having a system and allowing the "free market" to drive health care is wrecking the economy. How can a country possibly justify spending 1 out of every 6 dollars keeping its citizens moderately healthy? Left to itself, this market-driven healthcare will eventually collapse under its own weight, much like any other under-regulated market has.
3/21/2010 5:08 PM
Jesus was anything but a liberal and He was in no way shape or form a leftist. You would have to leave out 99.9% of the Bible and take a lot out of context to imply any of that nonsense.
3/21/2010 5:34 PM
The primary reason behind the failure of most governmnet created programs is the over regulation and mismanagement by government controls. The thought that overregulation is the problem is laughable. It seesm that lack of accountability, personal responsibility and managerial leadership is the source of most program failures. Regulation or lack of should not be confused with mismanagement. The governmensts fix for many things is to keep pumpiong mopney into it and change the rules but they seldom actually address root cause and cause and effect to correct failures.
3/21/2010 5:49 PM
Mark:
Yes, we do have the best doctors in the world... if you can afford them. Which a lot of people can't, and a whole lot more people won't be able to in the future, unless we change things. That's the whole point.
The birth rate data is skewed in that poorer people with less access to health care have third world rates, and everybody else has rates comparable to other top tier nations. Even if you don't believe the CDC data saying that we are dropping in the infant mortality rankings (note that the CDC has some motivation to paint us in the best possible light), it's notable that our infant mortality rate now is higher now than it was 20 years ago. That's sad.
As a side note, I find it tragically ironic that bible thumping republicans will sit here on one hand and trumpet right to life for the unborn fetus, and yet argue against providing proper and affordable pre-natal and post-delivery care to that same child. The nuns are onto something because they realize that you have to be both anti-abortion and pro-health care reform because they're two different sides to the same coin
3/21/2010 6:34 PM
Obama favors late term abortion. He does not mind killing babies up until before delivery. Progressive liberals are so compassionate. Their favorite sham and fraud buzz line is "Do it for the children." Wonder what children they are alluding to, the dead ones in the dumspter or the ones they use to secure emotional appeal?
3/21/2010 6:56 PM
I would point out that all countries with socialized medicine have a lower abortion rate than the US, even with a much greater ease of access and lower costs for abortion. Considering that the poor get abortions at higher rates than others, I submit that this might be due to greater ease of access to birth control that then prevents the pregnancy in the first place.
3/21/2010 8:55 PM
Final score: Good Guys 219, Selfish Bastards 212.
Three YouTube clips...
What happened: http://www.dailykos.com/tv/w/002621/
Why it matters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhYtMmw9OVk&feature=player_embedded
And my favorite, dedicated to Senator Jim DeMint: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85yMOPKR94M&feature=player_embedded#
3/22/2010 4:38 AM
RD,
Score clarifcation, Marxists win the vote and continue to wipe their asses with the U.S. Constitution. The progressive democrats continue their march and takeover to remake America in their red image and to bring their perverted brand of utopia. Will the last American leaving the USA lower the flag?
3/22/2010 5:20 AM
Tango Sierra
3/22/2010 5:37 AM
RD,
Echo Sierra Alpha Delta
3/22/2010 5:43 AM
Sierra Tango Foxtrot Uniform
3/22/2010 5:45 AM
The U.S. Constitution has been laminated and changes can be made via grease pencil.
3/22/2010 11:10 AM
Get the hell out of my way!
John Galt
3/22/2010 12:13 PM
Atlas Shrugged is insightful. Some fine folks would not read it because it would hurt their inner child.
RD, do you want an autographed copy from Rand?
3/22/2010 12:21 PM
Animal Farm.Too much reality. Just buy more whisky and it will all be easier to swallow.
3/22/2010 12:26 PM
Obamacare is codeword for "Soylent Green"
3/22/2010 12:36 PM
"RD, do you want an autographed copy from Rand?"
Darn right. Get her to sign one.
Oh wait. She's as dead as the Republicans' attempt to kill health care reform. And her whacko ideas: dead as well.
Never mind...
3/22/2010 12:55 PM
RD,
You better stay on your bran muffins and prune juice. The Obamacare will not have much to offer you when your power chair goes out and your hook falls off. Also RD,I know that you have been buying that U.S. Constitution toilet paper but with your roids falling out at your age you might want to consider a softer toilet paper like Obamapaper or the special red 2 ply from China.
I am sure that your Marx statue is all lit up and your holiday hammer and sickle flag is flying at full staff.
3/22/2010 1:11 PM
Dont worry duck,
You can watch your favorite movie "Reds" and sip more kool-aid.
3/22/2010 1:13 PM
RD,
When your doctor said "Nuts" that was more than just you have none but that you are NUTS.
3/22/2010 1:16 PM
Ducky,
Maybe a book more suited for your library would be "Rules for Radicals" signed by any current progressive liberal Marxist.
I got confused, I thought that you were actually an American but I realize that you went red somewhere along the line.
3/22/2010 1:23 PM
The health care bill, once signed, will trigger a good number of lawsuits by various states. Rightly so. If it can stand up to the judicial challenge, so be it. If not, it'll certainly be an interesting part of history.
I'd encourage folks here to keep a clear head about them during times like these. We're current & former submariners, after all, and should project the image of 'cool under pressure' rather than lapse into name calling, such as some have engaged in here.
People who buy into a particular political party are buying into a mass psycology and thus literally incapable of thinking for themselves...so don't take it personally when a hard-core Democrat or Republican engages in non-thinking "Teabagger" or "red" (etc.) namecalling, because that's exactly what it is: brainless.
Focus on the solutions, not the problems.
3/22/2010 2:08 PM
Very astute.
Impeach Obama, that is a solution gaining steam.
3/22/2010 2:11 PM
Since when have any real bubbleheads taken anything seriously?
SOP is to find what gets under someone's skin then ping active until the weak ones cave.
It does weed out the lunatics.
But Duck is a tough bird to overheat.
He did seem to lose it with the women on subs topic, lol.
3/22/2010 2:16 PM
I do not know any bubbleheads that would get offended by the banter on here but the new breed might be a little thin skinned and the soon to be female undersea warriors might find less humor in getting pinged on.
Traditionally, men could duke it out on the beach and be all business back onboard but if someone can not handle that or does not understand that then I am sure that some new policy will make beach humor into a taboo topic.
3/22/2010 2:21 PM
One time we borrowed the XOs door for maintenance and it was a very organized evolution. That same XO is a 2 star today but we got some very good mileage out of that door. Like the Sailor posted as the simulated door during the recovery operation.
That same XO hated butt kits and blinkers so when he was on travel his SR was modified with about 5 butt kits (older days) and all lights were blinkers. He really appreciated the renovation. Not to mention extra zarfs for his visistors cup holders.
Of course today that would probably violate some assholes mental threshold.
3/22/2010 2:27 PM
You astute gentlemen misread me. On matters like women in submarines and health care reform ... I just like to be on the winning side. Those who aren't have a name. Starts with 'L."
3/22/2010 2:54 PM
Come now Ducky, the winning side is a very relative navigation aid. It appears that your power chair might need some new wheels and a extra capacity battery.
And you will get much more success out those suppositories work better when you remove the foil.
Lighten up Duck, you will live a fuller life.
3/22/2010 3:04 PM
Duck, what is the "L" side, are you talking about Lesbians? Duck, not even you would go down that rabbit hole.
3/22/2010 3:10 PM
RD,
If you want to be a "Yellow Dog" that is cool. Rock on and keep it real. Just grab your personal copy of the Communist Manifesto and march on down to the Politboro. The "L" that you are talking about must be more self revealing for you as in "Leftist."
3/22/2010 3:17 PM
C'mon guys, get in a line. I'm trying to save ammunition...
3/22/2010 3:42 PM
Ducky, on a more serious note. Have you ever pulled liberty with gooney birds everywhere?
3/22/2010 3:46 PM
Duck, dont save it, let it rip, both barrels. You can reload later. But once you expend your warshots you will need to submit a req in triplicate.
3/22/2010 3:48 PM
RD,
Have you ever had the pleasure to see the WWII sub skipper's request and very funny comments about toilet paper and its shortage? I think that it was at Mare Island. It is very classy.
3/22/2010 3:50 PM
LCDR Coes toilet paper letter is at:
http://www.submarinesailor.com/history/toiletpaper.asp
3/22/2010 3:52 PM
Wow, that letter is way cool.
If that was sent today then some CO would get relieved.
Different back-stabbers I guess than those identified in the letter.
3/22/2010 4:00 PM
What a bunch of nutz. Must be bubbleheads!
3/22/2010 4:09 PM
Why did'nt Regulus boats get their own pin?
3/22/2010 4:18 PM
Do SSGN's get the "Boomer Tough" pocket rocket or do they have their own home grown Tomahawk pin?
3/22/2010 4:21 PM
Keep smiling, Duck. It's not often that rational logic wins out in politics, you need to celebrate the wins!
And since when has thinking for yourself been "unAmerican?"
I wonder how many will still have the hubris to bitch when their health insurance premiums go down and the %GDP spent on healthcare drops 50%?
3/22/2010 4:50 PM
Wait, are the greedy ones the people who want to keep what they earn or the people who insist on free stuff?
3/22/2010 5:19 PM
gobama,
You are nuts if you think that anything will decrease. Costs will go up once its in place and the quality of health care will be the only thing that GOES DOWN from this fiasco.
UnAmerican is any Obama Marxist supporter or otherwise called progressive liberal democrat.
Thinking for yourself, ha, you have to have at least one functioning brain cell to think for yourself.
3/22/2010 5:33 PM
What would Dex Armstrong say about this conflagration?
3/22/2010 5:59 PM
Oz, the problem is that there is no such thing as free stuff. Either it gets stolen from someone or given willfully, either way, it is NEVER FREE except for the leeches, mooches and users. The progressive liberals call it wealth transfer but people educated beyond government school level recognize it as theft and deception. Or rather plunder and pillage.
3/22/2010 6:03 PM
That was exactly the point.
3/22/2010 6:48 PM
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." Frederic Bastiat
That quote describes the progressive liberal democrat’s current mode of operation and SOP.
3/22/2010 8:17 PM
You might note that those communists and socialists on Wall Street rather liked the historic health care reform that passed into law Sunday night. Health care stocks went up 1% Monday and show no hint of the apocalyptic ruin predicted by the more loopy posters in this thread.
I have to assume these bizarros aren't submariners. Submariners look out for others, their shipmates in the crew and the people of the nation they defend through through their service and sacrifice. That's just about impossible to square with the meanness, smallness, and selfishness expressed by a few here. Odd.
3/23/2010 6:32 AM
RD,
The overall impact of the HC bill will not be felt for awhile. They made sure that all the nasty realitys would not become fact until after key elections in 2010 and 2012. How crafty and sly to delude and deceive until after elections.
Duck, on the boats its all pride, profressionalism and attention to detail submarine business (or at least it used to be). But in the current political environment and outside the boat its all personal. You assume that those who strongly oppose perceived anti-American idealogy as being poor or weak shipmates. You are in error.
Some of the Democrat leadership of today are not your father's democrats. The party has been hijacked by FAR LEFT progressive liberals who are not "old school" dems in any way shape or form.
The media is totally in the tank with the WH and state supported media is nothing more than a propaganda wing of left wing idealology. There is no objectivity with the state media (for the most part).
Duck, you want to be a "yellow dog" then have at but do some deep research and you will find that your dog is now a "red dog."
3/23/2010 11:02 AM
Hard-core partisans (e.g., the Duck) are incapable of thinking for themselves. That's why they buy into group-think in the first place...so they don't have to.
Were it up to me, all political parties would be prosecuted (successfully) under the RICO Act for violating racketeering laws. The first U.S. president warned against them for good reason.
3/23/2010 11:06 AM
From President George Washington's Farewell Address in 1796:
"They [political parties] serve to organize faction, to give it an artificial and extraordinary force; to put, in the place of the delegated will of the nation the will of a party, often a small but artful and enterprising minority of the community; and, according to the alternate triumphs of different parties, to make the public administration the mirror of the ill-concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans digested by common counsels and modified by mutual interests.
"However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion."
3/23/2010 11:15 AM
Pardon the right/left/socialist/marxist/red/blue/tea bagger name calling, but back to the debate. I had an interesting thought that I'm sure some posters can reduce to name calling but I'll share anyway. If you believe that there isn't a right to health care or food or water or shelter or any of the basic necessities of life. How is there a right to life? Surely not having the right to water will interfere with my right to life? Then take it a step futher...even if a fetus is a person - with the legal entitlements as such, how does that person have a right to life, if I, the woman, choose not to provide it with the food, nurishment and shelter it needs to grow? After all people don't have a contitutional right to nurishment or shelter because that would requirement someone provide that.
3/23/2010 1:14 PM
It appears that President Washington had more scruples, integrity, character, intelligence,foresight and wisdom than all of the DC crowd combined in 2010.
Thomas Paine
3/23/2010 1:18 PM
Love that last Washington quote! I think this two-party system (which has really been inherent in American politics since the Loyalists and Independents) is the root cause of most of what's wrong with our government. I have yet to find a party I agree with consistently. The Democrats and Republicans are both FUBAR. I like Libertarian ideas, but they just don't work in reality.
I support this reform effort because I have done a lot of research and have come to the conclusion that governments really do manage healthcare better than a free market. I support Obama because I believe he is dedicated to finding real-world solutions to problems without getting bogged down in abstract ideals. Most politicians are fine with throwing out easily-remembered slogans. The problem with slogans is that you can't use them to solve complex real-world problems.
I understand that many don't agree with me on this, but don't call me un-American, communist, or a mindless liberal. I've just accepted this bill as the least-bad option available, and sometimes that's the best you can do in reality.
3/23/2010 1:45 PM
@kr: You might want to drop the sarcasm if you want to have a rational discussion.
I don't think you'll find too many people on the left or the right who believe that health care doesn't need an overhaul. It does. There were probably 12-15 good points in the current legislation that could have been congenially agreed to by both sides, as they were in everyone's best interest.
But, for example, requiring all people to pay for health care insurance? IMHO, that's way outside the limits and purposes of the federal government.
My best guess is that how this will turn out eventually is that parts of it will be overturned by the courts, rather than the whole kit and kaboodle. And those parts that get overturned will regretably only fuel the idiotic (I mean that in the literal sense) us versus them political football that too many Americans buy into.
It didn't have to be like this in terms of divisiveness, and Social Security and Medicare certainly were not.
3/23/2010 1:57 PM
RD:
To bring this post full circle, we also swore to support and defend the Constitution. That's as written, not just the bits you like, and not the one you want to exist but doesn't.
3/23/2010 4:06 PM
Thanks dealer, but no cards. i like this hand...
3/23/2010 4:26 PM
I have to assume these bizarros aren't submariners. Submariners look out for others, their shipmates in the crew and the people of the nation they defend through through their service and sacrifice. That's just about impossible to square with the meanness, smallness, and selfishness expressed by a few here. Odd."
RD: While I agree with you mostly politically, you're really dating yourself here. This certainly is not the submarine fleet as it exists today.
3/23/2010 4:58 PM
RD,
Keep your best poker face but the deck is stacked so do not put all your hopes in one game. A red dog has lady luck on the run.
3/23/2010 5:05 PM
"This certainly is not the submarine fleet as it exists today."
Can some AD folks please enlighten an older wheel about the status of the modern boats. Please do not incriminate yourself or any AD folks or say anything unlawful against UCMJ. Just be PC to keep yourself safe. CYA.
3/23/2010 5:10 PM
My only sarcasm is in poking fun at the amount of personal and ad hominem attacks. I'm completely serious about the abortion example. Not meaning to go there, but folks argue that there is no right to the basic requirements for life in the Constitution, so I am at a loss as to how there is a right to life for anyone. Particularly when the argument I have heard about not having a right to health care or food or water is that someone else would have an obligation to provide it - and that would be taking away from someone else.
3/23/2010 5:40 PM
Modern boats do just fine. We pitch in and support each other. We even do it without a gun held to our heads, which is what this bill is.
3/23/2010 6:47 PM
KR,
IMHO. An answer to your question is really deep and complex yet simplistic. The U.S. Constitution invokes, implies and directs that man’s rights (Americans) come from the Creator God and not from government. The question is one of authority. America’s first Congress ordered and funded the printing of the first Bibles in the English language and directed that they would be read by citizens and used in all education. Looking at this from a standpoint where government is the sole authority, history reveals a level of savagery and barbarism that is unfathomable such as the Communists in China (Mao), Russia (Stalin), Cambodia (Pol Pot), the Nazis (Hitler and the NAZIs full name, The German National Democratic Party) have murdered/slaughtered millions of their own people and others. The list is not conclusive but the point is where there is the potential for a dictator/totalitarianism then given the perfect storm of an evil ruler and a willing followership then anything can occur. So it is about authority, whose authority is the controller? The issues today besides the interpretation of the U.S. Constitution really center around governments role and constraints and what is the obligation of man to each other?
A humble opinion.
3/23/2010 7:44 PM
I thought maybe my memory of the Constitution was wrong, so I reread it. Sure enough, it doesn't invoke, imply, direct, or even HINT that rights come from "Creator God." In fact, other than "year of our lord" at the end, there is absolutely NO Christian reference in the Constitution.
3/23/2010 8:15 PM
Correction,The Declaration of Independence states that,
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
The Constitution delineates the specifics of the establishment of the three branches and their authority within those parameters.
The Constitution does not permit wholesale authority for any branch of government to become a one stop authority and to support a statist paradigm as seen now by Obama and his band of thugs.
3/23/2010 8:30 PM
The Declaration of Independence carries the authority under certain circumstances to supersede the U.S. Constitution.
3/23/2010 8:51 PM
The aforementioned opinion is just an opinion and one of countless opinions based on the reading and context of the Declaration of Independence.
Any kooks, morons, imbeciles, nutjobs or moonbats should report to the nearest UFO boarding site for their frequent flyer milesge validation.
3/23/2010 9:06 PM
Dammit, read this: http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=2214
We are the most affluent and successful big nation on earth. That until now our people - especially those struggling with poverty, disease, and unearned back luck - could not claim basic health treatment as a privilege of being an American has been a shameful fact. We can afford to make staying alive and being treated for illness and injury an element of citizenship - and finally we have done so, in the process cutting the national debt.
Nearly all who post in this blog currently have access to government-provided health care, through active-duty status, Tricare and medicare, or the VA. The health care reform now law gives the rest of the population some help too.
It is good for our nation.
And mean people suck.
3/24/2010 5:19 AM
Rubber Ducky,
After all these years have;nt you learned how untrustworthy some politicians can be?
WHen anyone offers more for less there should be a large ripple through your brain that says, hey, that might be BS.
This bill will not save any money but rather will spend much more than projected. Government spending projections are fantasys and if you multiply the cost by 3-5times then you will be closer to the real cost.
Here is a question that a smart person like you should be able to articulate and absorb. If Medicare is a shambles (which it is) and it is a much smaller program than the new Anti-health care program, then what makes you think that those which failed a smaller program can manage a larger one?
No one is denying that fixes and changes are needed but making a bad change is not a good option.
It seems as if your "Red Dog" attitude is to do anything, even if it is foolish and completely wrong.
Your wonderful vice yesterday, Biden dropped the "F" bomb on microphone but I dont here your refined whining about that indiscretion. Come on Duck, have you no standards in your RED liberal progressive party?
Your right Duck, mean people suck and that must mean that you could suck a shotput through a tygone tube.
3/24/2010 6:05 AM
Biden said a naughty word? Oh God! The end of life on earth!
Thank you for alerting us to yet another horror perpetrated by these diabolical fiends elected by popular vote and serving with honor. It puts your whole argument in context: nothing there, move on.
3/24/2010 6:21 AM
Duck,
A CO gets fired because some immature kiddies at Cornhole University can not think on their feet and are coddled by their babysitters. The representative of the U.S. in the office of Vice Pres. shows blatant indiscretion and you could care less about that?. You don’t care about the image presented by the VP and this is the “H” word, hypocrisy and makes you look biased to left wing liberal progressives to the exclusion of common sense.
3/24/2010 6:46 AM
Duck,
Debating with a foolish person might be like "Mush" Morton surfacing to have a discussion with a Japanese Destroyer CO to discuss a possible surrender rather than a down the throat shot.
You are a dyed in the wool "red dog" and at least you are up front about it. Perhaps for you it is better to be honest, foolish and wrong, rather than be on the winning team?
3/24/2010 7:21 AM
Deleted a comment. Let's try to avoid getting personal...
3/24/2010 7:46 AM
What is the ping pong world coming to? Duck is so thick skinned that he will not even blow his gasket over anything but women on subs topic. Duck is one tough bird. Cool under stress but a soft spot for the female bubbleheads.
Duck, all jokes, jibs, jabs and general friction aside, what is the significance to the handle "Rubber Ducky"? It seems to have a boat related tie in?
3/24/2010 9:34 AM
Le Canard en Caoutchouc commanded GUDGEON when she was covered with anechoic coating as part of CNO-Project 699. These were large sheets of thick rubberized material encased in harder rubber window panes attached to the hull. Glued on also - giant goat rope to replace one of these big tiles. Rubber Ducky was nickname of the boat on the waterfront. Following the the practice of traditional Navy boat hails, the boat's name attaches to the CO. Thus Rubber Ducky.
Plus nobody else was using it...
3/24/2010 10:27 AM
Duck that is pretty cool.
I could tell you some funny and frustrating stories about having to research that huge condom's material in order to comply with proper hazmat and security requirements. Reading the authorative docuemnts on the giant condom is like reading the IRS tax code unless you have the "Dummies Text."
Jolly good show. I bet that the test-bed boat had some intersting findings on buoyancy characteristics and other cool technical aspects. In the "old days" was'nt there a lot of testing going on with many different features on boats?
I remember one rather strange boat that seemed to have a lot of SNAFUS, the G.P. Lipscomb (spelling?). They were supposed to relieve us in the Med one year and we were having a swap-out pool that was much funner than any anchor-pool that the Glenard would never break away from the pier, lol, let alone cross the Atlantic to the Med.
Those were the days when boats were informally awarded "Most days away from homeport awards". I remember some boats in the 330 + days away category.
Then they started this quality of life stuff (QOL) and I think it is much less sea intensive.
3/24/2010 10:48 AM
Did diesel boats pull into Bangor before it was a boomer base?
Did diesel boats pull into Adak Alaska back in the day?
3/24/2010 11:14 AM
Was there a sub tender in Bangor before the land based repair facilitys were built to support the T-hulls like in Kings Bay? I think that Charleston boomers were refitting with the Canopus out of KB and Big Al was CSS-16. They used to have different beverage machines on the pier in those days.
3/24/2010 5:47 PM
I'm actually with the Duck on the latest Biden gaffe. The thing is though, is that it's another example of the unprofessional clown he is, not to mention the clown-in chief. The White House competence has been a little like this season's American Idol. The truly sobering thing about Biden, is that he's the one who recently visited Israel at this time, with Ahmedinejad telling the world to "fuck yourself, we're building nukes", and the inevitable PR fiasco that ensued in Jerusalem.
3/24/2010 7:59 PM
The Duck has some good ideas but dont tell him because he will think that he really is ALWAYS right.
3/24/2010 8:14 PM
Well this gang lets the Black Panthers go after the intimidation by the Black Panthers in Philly and the intimidation is documented as evidence on video but they walk.
The one black man was beaten by SEIU thugs in Missouri I think and that is documented as evidence on tape but no action and just forgotten. The man was selling Donttread on me flags" and the union SEIU scum assaulted him.
Acorn, well, it is obvious that they have defrauded the United States and perpetrated voter fraud but that seems to be a nonevent except for some states kicking it around.
But they are harping on Israel building apartments in their own country.
There seems to be a disconnect with this gang.
Oh yeah, the retired 3 star admiral turned Congressman alledgedly was bribed by teh WH which is usually against some kind of law but both the Admiral/Congressman and the WH are mum on that one.
The Army Maj. Yabba Dadda Doo commits a terrorist act on U.S. soil on a military base and when it was announced by the Pres it was like an afterthought.
There is a history of solid leadership by example with this bunch.
But Ducky, they are your heros so you hang with them no matter what.
3/24/2010 8:28 PM
Maybe before every major speech in all military functions the POC/Master of Ceremonies/Head Honcho should by procedure and for continuity follow the VP's leadership by example and say, "This is a really big F@%$#*&^ Deal". This would seem appropriate for the following occasions just to name a few:
Christenings
Commissionings
Decoms
Retirements
COCs
Funerals
VIP tours
Academy Graduations
ROTC Graduations
Award Ceremonys
Warfare Pinnings
Advancements
All training sessions
Before all drill sets
Weddings
Critiques
CO masts
Court Martials
Admin Boards
School graduations
Relief by Cause
Memorial Service
Veterans Day
Memorial Day
Midwatch entry on logs
Christmas Deck Log Entry
New Year Deck Log Entry
Anytime the press is present and it can be taped for posterity and for future reflections to foster pride and honor.
3/24/2010 8:45 PM
Here's some interesting info about other countries' systems:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/view/
I read his book, "Healing America," which gives a lot more in-depth figures and info.
3/25/2010 2:01 AM
Great Britain: A Leader in Preventive Medicine, LOL, LOL, LOL.
Are you serious...
PBS, NPR etc... Propaganda wing of progressive liberals state run media, just like, CBS, NBC, ABC, etc...
3/25/2010 6:00 AM
You don't hear much about state constitution issues. Maybe those only occur on state legislative floors and statehouses?
Has anyone ever heard where a state governor or government was accused of violating a state constitution?
3/25/2010 1:31 PM
Great post Bubblehead. I really think the Tea Party is causing a lot of trouble. I hear many of them are California Bankruptcy Attorney, and those are the scariest of them all :)
4/22/2010 2:58 PM
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