Whither The Smoking Lamp? And Other Links
1) Navy Times has a story on the CNO's plan to stop smoking on submarines. Excerpt:
The move is not yet official, so Lt. Cmdr. Mark Jones, a spokesman for Submarine Force, would say only that Vice Adm. John Donnelly “is examining the options of changing the policy of smoking in a submarine to improve the overall health of the entire crew.”Interestingly, submarines are one of the few indoor "public" places you can still smoke in Scotland, because they feel it would be too dangerous to go outside on the sub to light up. It makes sense strictly from an engineering sense to get rid of a load on the Burners, but I'm wondering how the submarine crews will take this proposed ban. During my JO tour from '90 - '93 is when they first started really restricting smoking on the boats; during that time, as I remember, they outlawed smoking on watch if you were in a closely-packed area (Maneuvering or the Ship's Control Party; I can't remember if you could light up in Sonar and Radio or not.) By the time I got to my next boat, I think it was a Force-wide policy that you could only smoke off-watch, in Shaft Alley, and only a couple guys at a time. Lots of guys took up smokeless tobacco. What do you think of the proposed ban?
Jones would not speculate on when a decision will be made, but a final order likely will come soon. The catalyst for change is the effect of second-hand smoke on crew members who remain submerged for months at a time.
2) Wired magazine has a story on the Submarine Escape trainer in Groton, with a video:
3) Here's a really nice summary of the five WWII U.S. submarines whose Eternal Patrol locations have been found since 2005. Toll the Bell.
posted by Bubblehead at 8:06 AM
62 Comments:
The second-hand smoke argument is BS. The atomized 2190 from the hydraulics, insulation and lagging, two-part paint fumes, primary and secondary chemicals, and Mk-48 fuels are a much bigger concern.
Why is the force so concerned with changing things that aren't broken?
3/29/2010 8:34 AM
There may be one now, but as of my last sea tour, I don't think there was a force-wide policy of only shaft alley (of course that was almost 8 years ago, so maybe one of the newbies can say for sure). My boat had smoking areas in AMR and ERUL and no restriction on numbers (unless EDMC was pissed). And watchstanders could smoke as long as they didn't have to leave their watchstations to get to a smoking area (so I guess that limited it to ERUL, ERS, EWS, EA, AMR, AOW, EOOW during his tour, and maybe RT if he was sneaky). Our COB did try to ban dip a couple times because spit bottles blew up in the compactor. That only lasted about a week, because he was a chain dipper.
3/29/2010 8:45 AM
Escape suit? more like a personal SUBROC.
3/29/2010 9:34 AM
First women, now no smoking. Recruiting and retention are going to get easier and easier!
Next they are going to ban personal laptops/dvd players because of power consumption concerns.
What kind of ass clowns are running the show in DC these days? Do they even remember the last time they were underway?
3/29/2010 10:38 AM
There will probably be a lot of angry sailors when this ban gets official. And after looking at the study done by UMI it probably will be official really soon. It also shows why smoking cessation is being pushed so hard at the boat level including ensuring that each boat has a smoking cessation rep that can get the patch for people that want it, etc... kinda preparing for the inevitable.
On all of my boats the smoking areas were always limited to 2-3 people.
Boat 1 (97-00): Condensate Bay (3) then AMR (3)
Boat 2 (03-05): Shaft Alley, Stbd Side (3)
Boat 3 (09): AMR (2)
Boat 4 (09-10): ASW Bay (2)
3/29/2010 10:56 AM
From a libertarian perspective, I think folks should have the right to kill themselves in whatever way they see fit, servicemembers in arduous duty especially. The disgusting cloud of death that appears over ASW bay at peak times is an infringement of the right not to smoke of anyone else in that space, though.
This is really a health care issue. The military is one of the last places on earth where smoking is still a cool thing; many nub sailors start socially, with the smoke pit being their best route into some kind of social acceptance. The problem is when they need cancer therapy on the taxpayer's dime.
Either way, this is a classic case of senior leadership waving their magic wand to enact massive policy change with nary a care as to how it will actually happen, as that is not their concern. The admirals get to walk away whistling, under a banner of victory for the great progress the Navy has made on their watch. Meanwhile those on the deckplate will continue to hold together an ever-increasingly overtaxed system with duct tape and bailing wire.
Nothing else like that going on in our submarine force...
3/29/2010 11:07 AM
As far as we are being told it is official. No smoking on board any submarine after Dec 31, 2010 and its just waiting for the order to be signed by COMSUBPAC. Taking it seriously enough that squadron has the boats taking polls of how many smoke, how many chiefs smoke, how many o-gangers smoke, how many wives smoke etc.
EM1
3/29/2010 11:07 AM
Wow!!! The PC machine keeps on rolling. Add this to all the other changes lined up for the waterfront to digest and wait and see what happens. Had to see the overall positive to this when some 20-30% of the crew smokes. As smokers say, "Quitting is easy. I've done it hundreds of times."
3/29/2010 11:21 AM
I tried to quit once while on active duty. I think it was refit of my second patrol. Two hours later I had to re-wire a 50 pin connector. That's all it took. I loved smoking. Especially on watch during patrol. Back in those days there was no second thoughts. You lit up when and where you wanted to...except in your rack.
I tried to quit a second time through hypnosis. Didn't take. Walked out of the guy's office and lit up.
I tried to quit a third time by just going cold turkey. That lasted about two hours.
On my fourth try, thirty years after the first attempt, I tried again. That try didn't take, I got lung cancer, and I've been dead now for over four years. I was cremated so in the end I too went up in a puff of smoke.
3/29/2010 11:46 AM
Was on the Spadefish from 88-90. Smoking was allowed only in the Engineroom, no limitation on number of people smoking. During our 90 Med Run we left La Madd and were supposed to pull in to Gibraltar in two weeks. Plans changed and we ended up being out for 4 weeks, the smokers who had planned on being able to re-stock in 2 weeks were very jittery and the market for individual cigarettes was booming.
3/29/2010 11:48 AM
Is this the continued rage of the PC era??? Wonder what is broken that this is going to fix-or is this another way to keep submarines in the news when the focus is on the land wars? Regardless, this will have all kinds of unintended consequences. Thankfully I'm too old for all this fun and games.
3/29/2010 12:55 PM
Good grief. I went through this in 91-92 onboard a 637 in Charleston. Several of them were "Non-Smoking" boats, and even one I know of was designated a "Tobacco-Free" Zone. The one I was on got a ride from COMSUBRON FOUR, who was an avid smoker. He asked the CO where the smoking area was, who told him the boat was smoke-free. The Commodore asked him where he would like his new smoking area, and Bow Compt LL outboard the Diesel, STBD side was designated as such. Soon enough, all the boats dropped their policies in favor of designated areas.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And for the record, I don't smoke and yes, I quit underway. I'd rather have quit smoking than bum off underway smokers. Best thing that ever happened to me.
3/29/2010 1:50 PM
Consider a bit of navy history from 1994:
"The Department of the Navy is implementing new smoking regulations... The new regulations go into effect at all Navy and Marine Corps commands no later than Jan. 1, 1994. ... Commanding officers of submarines will designate smoking spaces based on guidance from the force commander and the Nuclear Powered Submarine Atmosphere Control Manual (NAVSEA S9510-AB-ATM- 010(U))."
Also consider: FOXNEWS July 31, 2008 - Navy Blames Crew Member's Smoking for Costly Aircraft Carrier Fire - SAN DIEGO — Smoking appears to have sparked a fire that caused $70 million in damage to the nuclear-powered aircraft carrier USS George Washington, Navy officials said Wednesday.
We can certainly believe Lt. Cmdr. Mark Jones's statement that "The catalyst for change is the effect of second-hand smoke on crew members who remain submerged for months at a time." It's just that he fails to mention bringing females to sub crews with their pesky little fetuses.
The byproducts of smoking (voluntary) have potentially harmful effects on fetuses carried by female submariners (voluntary).
Other atmospheric contaminants from nasty equipment failures and onboard fires are not health issues?
Vice Adm. John Donnelly “is examining the options of changing the policy of smoking in a submarine to improve the overall health of the entire crew.”
Of course the admiral is, because the 'entire crew' will soon include women.
Who would like to predict the next change for the overall health of the entire crew?
Here's one guess: Wearing hats on duty like skimmers. Will it mean more saluting, too? Yes, saluting would improve the overall health of the entire crew (no doubt limited to boomers in the near future).
How does more discipline improve the health of the entire crew? Perhaps you have not been paying attention.
3/29/2010 2:24 PM
Many moons ago some boat in Kings Bay banned smoking...smokers were TAD'd up to Squadron and detailers told CO to go hell about replacements...detailing didn't look at "smoking"...CO gave up.
I was a "smoking" CO. Relaxed my predecessor's rules which were just assinine!
Thinks are just too different today...I pity the crews...
P.S. Quit smoking 10 years ago!
3/29/2010 2:28 PM
So is the rest of the Navy next? On the Buffalo in early to mid 90s, the CO made it smoke free. The YNC, avid smoker, filed a Article 138 against the CO (I think it was 138). Boat was no longer smoke free.
If they are going to do it to one factions, do it to all! Get the cigarettes out of the exchange then. For surface ships, no more cigarettes in the ships store.
If people don't like it, the can do the same thing Mullin's said about serving with gays....If military members don't agree with the policy, let them "vote with their feet." (http://www.onenewsnow.com/Politics/Default.aspx?id=952930)
All I have to say is what a bunch of retards with stars we have in the Navy!!!!!! THANK GOD I AM RETIRED!
STSCS(SS/SW) USN RET
3/29/2010 2:33 PM
Well I probably won't be able to stay in anyways (so I won't try to claim this change will keep me in), but I once almost had to put on an EAB while trying to do a battery charging lineup in AMR1 due to the cloud of death so this change is *long* overdue in my opinion.
The time when the smoke pit got moved to Shaft Alley and ruined Maneuvering sucked badly too, but I was merely qualifying then and could escape Maneuvering for those few days.
Keep up the whining though, it sure does make a great impression on sub sailors! I definitely agree we should do it to everybody, I mean why let surface guys smoke even with a perfectly good weatherdeck? Misery loves company and all...
3/29/2010 2:53 PM
To put things in some sort of perspective-whenever one of the CO2 scrubbers went down, the smoking lamp was immediately put out! Easiest piece of equipment to get repaired on the boat-no shortage of manpower, ideas, help and round the clock efforts to get it back on line. Across twenty five plus years of service...and we are gonna legislate smoking to the rest of the Navy only!!!! What a bunch of PC crap... and I have never been a smoker!
3/29/2010 4:48 PM
This all part the program to welcome abroad the vaginas. Get used to it girls..........
3/29/2010 4:51 PM
I have never been a smoker, but I would always buy cigarettes from the guys who were quitting underway so I could sell them back to them (at no profit) when they were going bonkers. If they are doing it for health reasons, then I guess we'll have to secure lube oil systems on 688s since the ventilation system is generally saturated with 2190.
There are plenty of CO/XO/COB/EDMC who may not like this policy, or enforcing it. All the guys who quit smoking can start eating more and then get kicked out for PFA failures.
Another intangible effect is that more work will get done in port because guys won't have to take smoke breaks (except those who drive off base to light up).
I personally would have liked to have served on a smoke-free boat, but there will be some tough times ahead implementing this.
3/29/2010 5:11 PM
Has anyone seen a reduction of ventilation lube oil with the new mist Eliminators?
3/29/2010 5:29 PM
My son told me this weekend that they're about to ban smoking base-wide at Bangor.
3/29/2010 5:30 PM
I was the helmsman on a trip to PD in the rolling North Atlantic. We were rigged for red. My Chief, the diving officer, lit a smoke ("Watch your eyes, bright light")and put it in my mouth for a puff, then took it out, then put it back for a puff, and so on, so I didn't have to take my hands off the wheel or my eyes off the gauges. When we shifted the fans to slow for training on the mess decks you couldn't see through the cloud. We bought sea store cigarettes for a couple of bucks a carton. Late '70's in Leaks and Cracks.
3/29/2010 6:21 PM
All I can say is, good thing I quit. Of course, it wasn't until AFTER I got off my last boat. Go figure. And at the time I was bitching because being on shore duty with no exchange around, I had to pay the whopping sum of $19 a carton for smokes. Now I look at people paying $60+ a carton and wonder how the hell they can do it.
3/29/2010 6:47 PM
I've been told Nicorette gum, works better than the patch when quitting.
It's true we do have a mounting crusade at Bangor for all hands to quit smoking. I thank the fuck Christ I never developed the habit. But I did learn the hard way at age 14 not to start.
I have an Aunt who's been a smoker for well over 40 years. She's also an RN. She once caught me trying to kype one of her Marlboros. This was during a summer in San Antonio. She made me sit out on the back deck where she threw down an ashtray, a new pack of reds and a lighter in front of me.
I could either sit there and smoke the whole pack with nothing to drink and sitting there in the heat. If not, I'd get my PlayStation taken away along with my bike and guns for the duration of the summer.
I started lighting up, and I tried to light 3 or 4 smokes at a time. She came out and put a stop to that shit. I was to finish each one individually.
I told her I was feeling like I was going to throw up. Since she is a nurse, she could tell if I was in any danger since I only suffered a stomach ache, alot of drooling from the smoke and a little dehydration. Granted the dehydration was taken care of once I finished my smokes.
Sufficed to say, I've never smoked sense. Just the thought of inhaling/swallowing smoke is butt-nasty to me. I don't care if other people smoke around me, but I learned a helluva' lesson hat day.
I personally think the Navy should hand out free Nic patches and Nicorette gum to all personnel wanting to quit. Hell, why not?
The Navy pays for us to go to college (Associates thru Grad school). Sickbay hands out free condoms and morning after pills, why not the Nic patch and the gum as well? My guys who smoke regularly are about to be ordered (basically) to quit. Fine then, provide them with the proper necessities in order to make this happen quickly and smoothly ASAFP.
MT1(SS) WidgetHead
3/29/2010 7:53 PM
2011 USN Submarine Force, You can't smoke a fag but you can marry one.
3/29/2010 7:58 PM
The boats are goin' fag, fag free, and female.
Did you really expect anything different from the spineless, Obuttma sycophant yes man, otherwise known as CNO?
3/29/2010 8:37 PM
First off, let me say that I am not now, nor ever will be, a smoker. I personally do not care about smoking on submarines one way or another. It's easier to clean up after than people who dip. However, I fear what the proposed policy will do is drive more people to dipping, which in my book, is even more disgusting than smoking. Are all the dippers going to be polite enough to dispose of their messes properly? Of course not! And now some other sailor is going to end up cleaning some other assclowns dip mess! Their are few things as gross as having to clean a corner where some ignoramous has been covertly spitting dip in. Been there, done that! I hate to say it, but if they are going to go after smoking for "health" or "sanitation" reasons, then the dip should go too. On the flip side, it will be kinda nice to see the guys who find a way to abuse the privledge and smoke 45 minutes out of every hour at work to no longer have the excuse to dump their work load on the non-smokers. We ALL know at least one smoker who fits this description. Glad I'm not addicted to that crap!
3/29/2010 9:12 PM
First off, let me say that I am not now, nor ever will be, a smoker. I personally do not care about smoking on submarines one way or another. It's easier to clean up after than people who dip. However, I fear what the proposed policy will do is drive more people to dipping, which in my book, is even more disgusting than smoking. Are all the dippers going to be polite enough to dispose of their messes properly? Of course not! And now some other sailor is going to end up cleaning some other assclowns dip mess! Their are few things as gross as having to clean a corner where some ignoramous has been covertly spitting dip in. Been there, done that! I hate to say it, but if they are going to go after smoking for "health" or "sanitation" reasons, then the dip should go too. On the flip side, it will be kinda nice to see the guys who find a way to abuse the privledge and smoke 45 minutes out of every hour at work to no longer have the excuse to dump their work load on the non-smokers. We ALL know at least one smoker who fits this description. Glad I'm not addicted to that crap!
3/29/2010 9:13 PM
Advice from the retired goat locker....
buy stock in dip......
I smoked for 20 years. quite at age 34 on SS-580. Threw away 18 cartons of $1.10 a carton sea store Marlboros and gave away my gold Dunhill lighter to my sister-in-law (dumb). got over withdrawal and compulsion to smoke in a couple of days. hardest part for me was diving officer watches with nothing to do with my hands. anyway, probably didn't really quite with all the second hand smoke on the boat in 1974.
Keep a zero bubble............
DBFTMC(SS)USNRET
3/29/2010 9:29 PM
Not sub related....but a story from the days when the smoking lamp when out on P-3s (and other multi-position airplanes).
I was an off and on smoker during my three flying assignments (1977-1993).
During the first two (late 70s through late 80s), you could smoke pretty much anytime you wanted (except on the deck and immediately after takeoff/before landing...just the way it used to be on commercial flights).
By the time I got to my final squadron on the early 90s, word had come down from (either NAVAIR or the fleet Air forces commander...who can remember?) to prepare for the transition on date X to smoke free aircraft. By this time, the smoking that was still permitted had been pushed to the galley...supposedly to protect sensitive avionics.
Our squadron CO smoked, and smoking on his planes were grandfathered under his tenure.
After his change of command, new CO (a former shipmate and smoking buddy of mine from one of the 80s assignments on the other side of the world).
By this time I had also advanced in responsibility, and instead of being tied to sensor station had the option to roam the tune on a walkaround cord and headset (the better to micromanage perfectly competent shipmates).
Even though my old buddy the CO had decreed the smoking lamp was out on his aircraft, I wasn't quite prepared for the reality of 6, 8, 10 or 12 hours of smoke free living while flying.
So about three hours into our first smoke-free flight, I excused myself into the head (while remaining on the walkaround headset) to burn one quickly, take the edge off both my nicotine addition and a flight that was become a little too eventful a little too early.
The sensor station closest to the head on this day was occupied by a Airman who had recently arrived from the schools pipeline, and was on his first-ever operational flight. Not counting his RAG time, his flight hours could be counted literally on the fingers of one hand...and what he knew about what was normal --or not-- was limited indeed.
Until about 30 seconds into my smoke, when I hear him break into the "all" group on the ICS to announce he smelled smoke. Before I get could the butt ditched into the urinal can and open the door to the head to confess, the plane commander called out the fire bill...which I was in charge of.
What could I do? There was a small ethical dilemma here. So, I ran the fire bill acoording to NATOPS, confident that I knew what he smelled and that the odds were good that there was no arcing or sparking anyplace else.
Which is pretty much how the story ends.
Later I congratulated him on his alertness...and then asked him to work with a qualified member on his "All" intercom calls until he had completed his aircrew quals, since there was much about normal that he was unfamiliar with.
After that:
I just sucked it up and didn't smoke while flying for the remaining two years of the tour. It wasn't pretty...but neither was it embarrasing.
3/30/2010 5:19 AM
Obutma?
I guess you forgot those little details concerning respect.
I've no doubt w/your attitude you wonder why you are not respected.
3/30/2010 7:10 AM
What a bunch of whiners...
3/30/2010 7:55 AM
CanadianBubblehead said...
What a bunch of whiners...
Canada has a military? Who woulda think it?
3/30/2010 8:21 AM
Obuttma Deserves no respect and none shall be given. Can't wait to see his punk-ass bitch first pitch at the Nationals game on April 5th. (In case you doubt, YouTube his previous attempt at the 2009 All-Star game.)
3/30/2010 8:27 AM
CanadianBubblehead said...
What a bunch of whiners...
Canada has a military? Who woulda think it?
3/30/2010 8:28 AM
Having been one of the guys that had to clean the ventilation filters, charcoal beds, operate scrubbers, burners, O2 gens, I think this is a good move. Never smoked in my life, but I do dip. Learned very early on that spit cans suck so I just learned to swallow. Yea, I can see the comments on that one. I do know that this will be a huge burden on some, but it will definitely help with the ventilation system. I drydocked a boat in the early 90's that was smoke free. I knew the CO and knew of his attitudes towards smoking. No surprise, but he made it work. Just my HO.
CWO3 USN (ret)
3/30/2010 9:27 AM
The first submarine I set foot on (or is it In, or Onboard of?) was Canadian. I was in subschool and a couple of my buds and I decided to go down to the lower base and get us a looky inside one of them submarines. Our first attempt was the USS Archerfish. The topside watch ran us off. Next we tried the USS Dace. This time the OOD was called and again, we were runt off. Finally we spied an older looking boat a couple of piers down. Don't remember its name, but it was Canadian and we were envited aboard(or is it onboard?).
We were given a superb tour and asked to stay for supper. The XO came into the crew's mess and ate dinner with us. After supper we were taken up to the torpedo room where a bar was set up. As guests, the bar was open to us as long as the bar was open. It was a Friday night and we got pretty lit up. We were given racks for the night and breakfast the next morning before we were sent on our way. What a great experience........
That Canadian crew took in three young, wide-eyed, ignorant to the ways of the world kids, and offered hospatality far beyond anything those fastboats were willing to offer. It was an evening I'll never forget.
So CanadianBubblehead, thank you to your country, to your Navy, and to your submarine force. And I agree, American submariners are a whiney bunch of bitches. They're also pretty funny sometimes.
3/30/2010 11:24 AM
This new policy, and yes it will happen, aligns directly with the many other healthcare initiatives slowly working their way through DoD.
The bottom line is that the total amount of health care dollars DoD shells out from the TRICARE budget has to drop. These savings will be a part of the CBO final analysis of the new health care legislation.
3/30/2010 11:45 AM
The bottom line is that the total amount of health care dollars DoD shells out from the TRICARE budget has to drop. These savings will be a part of the CBO final analysis of the new health care legislation.
So, when does the Kommander in Chief stop his smoking? After all, he is driving up my premium, otherwise known as TAX INCREASE, since I will involuntarily be placed into a pool with smokers like him.
3/30/2010 1:32 PM
Count me as one active-duty submariner who let up three cheers when he heard the news. It's about time the submarine force even remotely approached catching up with the real world...
3/30/2010 3:30 PM
Assclown, you are fortunate that your adventure was on a man-o-war from Canada. If that was a modern Navy sub, the kiddies would get scared, they would call some nub JO. The NUB would drive you home and tell his daddy and your ass would have been keelhauled at muster the next day.
Assclown Jr. UI
3/30/2010 6:00 PM
As for mist eliminators - yes, they seem to work pretty well. On Seawolf-class boats, ventilation lube oil's a real problem and any improvement is welcome.
I don't smoke but there are times I've had to burn one; I don't see how this is going to be worth the extra hate and discontent. Morale gets bad enough on mission without taking away peoples' smokes.
3/30/2010 8:40 PM
Screw morale. Stand your watch. Do your PMs and req'd maintenance. Get qualified. Get more qualified. Do the mission. Keep your mouth shut (quit your bitching). Do what the navy tells you to do (follow orders).
They've got you, and until your EAOS, you're theirs.
So make the best of things and have a fine navy day. Quack quack...
3/31/2010 7:27 AM
I am mildly surprised that this thread is as calm as it is. I cannot fathom how crew members are going to survive weeks/months in the no smoking environment. It will tax an already overburdened COC with one more "unfunded requirement". I wonder if the boat will be stocked with "medicinal smokes" (accounted for and double signed for)in the event things get out-of-hand?
3/31/2010 7:57 AM
Well, the carbon fags (cigs)will cease smoking.
3/31/2010 8:35 AM
Do you guys remember what would happen when the 18 day op would get extended to 40+ days?
I always brought along a 'log' of Copenhagen for those occasions where the smoking lamp was secured because of some casualty, or when the op/underway got extended beyond the capacity of my stash of smokes.
The part I really can't ever get past were the dip 'recyclers'. I understood the principle in concept, but I don't think I could have ever applied it.
[Oh, and on the Buffy in the late 1990's, I think it was limited to 4-6 folks back in SA at a time-- as ERLL/ERS, one could go back surreptitiously and bum a few drags on watch, esp. with another ERLL/ERS qual'd guy back there. Think of it as a, "[pass the smoke] I've got it", [pass back] "Now I've got it", [pass back] "I've got it again". You get the picture.]
On a side note, I never smelled/saw anyone doing so, but I always suspected that due to the olfactory overload of amines, if someone was smoking pot and another guy was more than about 15 feet away, the pot smell would be gone. The amines made smelling anything except an actual "acrid" odor impossible to detect. Thoughts??
3/31/2010 9:48 AM
Well, now that the smokes will be illegal, maybe there should be a nicotine zero tolerance program?
It is interesting to see that the Navy has an earth day celebration. The PC nature of the service is most revealing.
Hey, why not paint ships and airplanes green?
3/31/2010 12:28 PM
I know most people are commenting on smoking, but I just wanted to comment on the 3rd part of the post about how they have located 5 WWII subs the last few years, I visited the wisconsin maritime museum over winter, they had a display and documentary on the USS Lagarto which was interesting. Even better was the preserved USS Cobia a Balto Class submarine, the submarine looks like the day it came off the slipway in the 40s the museum has done an excellent job preserving her, and returning her to her orginal wartime condition. If you are ever in Wisconsin I recommend taking a look, its worth it.
3/31/2010 5:30 PM
Wisconsin in the winter, is'nt that like the North Pole?
I wonder when the CSS Hunely will be open for tour, well for looking anyway? I understand that the scientist are playing with it now but someday it might be ready for museum presentation.
3/31/2010 5:56 PM
Maybe I'm WAY more in the minority on this issue than I thought I was, but I was surprised that after reading the first 10 comments to this blog nobody even mentioned the fact that there are plenty of submarine sailors who don't smoke and don't WANT to smoke, but are forced to be subjected to secondhand smoke for months at a time just because they chose to serve in the submarine force. Let's face it, there really is no place for them to go to get away from it. Nevermind the fact that the air quality on the boat is already so bad that a simple cut on your arm won't heal for like 2 months (see a_former_elt_2jv's post), and the fact that some genious decided it was an awesome idea to put the diesel exhaust on a T-hull right next to the ventilation intake on the sail, so every time you snorkel you end up huffing diesel exhaust for a couple of hours, unless you go to the Engine Room and Lord knows you don't want to go there. In any case, I think it can hardly be argued that your right to kill yourself by chain smoking overrides someone else's right to have secondhand smoke-free air to breath while serving their country in the middle of the (insert body of water here) ocean. Suck it up, smokers. Get some dip, you can kill yourselves that way, too, if you must.
4/01/2010 1:29 PM
Re: pc assclown @ 7:27,
You're right, they have me till EAOS, and I will continue to do my job to the best of my ability at all times. But there's no way I'm reenlisting. Maybe it's just my boat, but pretty much everyone worth a shit (ie, knows the systems, can do maintenance without screwing it up, actually has any motivation) is getting out; the people reenlisting are the people who don't get anything done / the people who can't be trusted to work alone.
If you add additional stress like banning smoking, then people on the borderline have even less reason to stay.
4/01/2010 2:22 PM
Not supportive. I'm with ELT_2JV on this one. The data is bad and there are many other problems.
The pressure to paint underway is just one. As my commodore said, "Of course you will paint underway, when could be a better time?"
We limited the numbers and locations and it was fine. It can be managed.
Watchstanders cannot use tobacco (smokeless or not). Only so many at a time, only AMR and R114 flats.
A ban means 'forcing' no smoking, which will probably fail the first Congressional it gets.
4/01/2010 8:36 PM
Imagine how nice it would be if the submarine flag establishment could ban drinking! No DUIs!
Hmmm. I wonder why they can't?
4/01/2010 8:37 PM
Underways should be banned. Also, breathing, eating, thinking, talking, and sleeping.
Robots would be the perfect replacement. The PC and Diversity patch could be downloaded and the perfect Sailor.
Reboot every once in a while and there you go.
Obedient, subservient and never a PR glitch or speedbump.
4/02/2010 4:56 PM
Nobody could dispute the fact that smoking is harmful.
But what about the millions of smokers who have tried to quit, and can't? Should they be condemned to die? I think not!
In a recent press release, Dr. Elizabeth Whelan (President of the American Council on Science and Health), exposed the FDA, calling their statement "distorted, incomplete and misleading" in reference to a press conference that the FDA held to scare Americans away from electronic cigarettes. Federal and state agencies collect 26 BILLION dollars per year on tobacco taxes, and ZERO on e-cigarettes.
Basically, the FDA is strongly advising us to "Stay away from these new electronic cigarettes. Stick to the good old (tax revenue producing) tobacco cigarettes. You know, the ones that cause nearly half a million deaths each year in the US alone"
The FDA has violated its own rules of presenting policies based upon sound science. In essence the FDA is telling us we don't care whether Americans live or die. We want our tax revenues!
Tobacco cigarettes are deadly, not only due to the presence of toxins and carcinogens, but because smokers inhale huge amounts of smoke (products of combustion). The result? Millions of people die from heart disease, lung disease, cancer etc.
Smokers 'need' nicotine. By getting the nicotine without the smoke, e-cig users enjoy an enormous health benefit over tobacco smokers.
The FDA has approved other nicotine delivery systems (gums and patches) but they have been dismal failures, with a success rate of under 15%. So by only approving products that don't work, the FDA has condemned millions of smokers to a lingering death. We desperately need other alternatives. Dr. Whelan commented, "Cigarette smoking remains the leading cause of preventable disease and death in the United States today. Any alternative acceptable to addicted smokers should be taken seriously. Instead of condemning the e-cigarette, the FDA should be sponsoring studies to evaluate its safety and efficacy, leaving it on the market in the interim."
If you know someone who smokes, you can do them a big favour.
Go to http://www.get-e-cigs.com/
4/04/2010 1:41 AM
The pressure to paint underway is just one. As my commodore said, "Of course you will paint underway, when could be a better time?"
We limited the numbers and locations and it was fine. It can be managed.
Maybe things have changed since I got out in 1990 as a lowly E-6, but I fought this battle several times and won. Not only was painting at sea forbidden (in writing; SORM, EDM or some other boondoggle book), but painting within 24 or 48 hours (I forget how many) of actually closing the hatches was also.
4/04/2010 1:09 PM
The Navy has gradually been moving toward this ban for a long time. I was an A-Ganger on the Philly from 96-99. I can remember talking to 1st classes & chiefs that said they were allowed to smoke throughout the boat. By my time, we were restricted to a small area in either the ASW bay ER middle level. The Navy also had started offering Nicorette patches to whoever wanted them.
I remember a JO on our boat being chastised by the CO when he caught him using chew; apparently, the CO told him he wasn't being a good example for the crew.
It's bad enough already the crew has to do without sunshine, fresh fruit, daily products, personal space, and endure the unhealthy 18 hour days.
Let the crew at least have their tobacco fix. The next thing you know they'll ban beards and tennis shoes underway!
4/04/2010 9:16 PM
When I came in back in the late 80's, smoking on USS Drum was allowed anywhere except the forward table on the messdecks at meal time. The EO and the TH used to smoke in maneuvering and blow smoke at this RO until he would start coughing. Things changed in the 90's when the smokeless by 2000 campaign was announced. (still waiting on that one) I talked to our corpsman when this was announced, and he said that medical did studies on one of the boats, and took (blood or urine) samples during an underway. All the non-smokers had elevated levels of nicotine in their bodies. We all know that the precips don't get all the smoke from the air. 2nd hand smoke is not BS.
4/05/2010 6:26 PM
SWEDISH snus by Swedish Match.
http://www.swedishmatch.com/
http://www.swedishsnus.com/
I prefer 'ETTAN' but many people like 'General' flavor.
http://www.ettansnus.com/
http://www.generalsnus.com/
beebs
I used to chew copenhagen.
4/05/2010 8:00 PM
When I came in back in the late 80's, smoking on USS Drum was allowed anywhere except the forward table on the messdecks at meal time. The EO and the TH used to smoke in maneuvering and blow smoke at this RO until he would start coughing.
I was on Drum during that time and in port in the Engineering spaces the smoking lamp was at the discretion of the SRO. I told the guys on the watchbill they could smoke as long as I couldn't smell it. I only had one ass not comply, and he was promptly banned from smoking anytime he was on watch with me.
4/05/2010 9:57 PM
Old Salt:
I think you're missing the point. As far as the long-term health of the sailor, I'm thinking the amines, 2190, and paint are a bigger concern than second hand smoke.
There's a measurable instance of cancer mortality associated with second hand smoke, but the same mortality/morbidity hasn't been calculated for the other atmospheric contaminants. Contrary to the official positions in the SORM/EDM, the 'illegal' painting activities underway are performed because CO's, XO's, EDMC's, and COB's really don't care about their sailors lives, but about their careers instead. Long after the paint-induced meso (or equivalent) starts to show up, those folks in the COC are long gone.
Remember, that it wasn't long ago that if you smoked and were exposed to asbestos (causing a 100X increase in cancer rates), it was "your fault" that you got the meso, because you increased your risk by smoking. Now a days, it's the company/gov't's fault for exposing you to something that increased your risk from smoking by 100X.
4/06/2010 6:56 AM
Let's lower the bar even more?
10/29/2011 8:38 PM
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