Keeping the blogosphere posted on the goings on of the world of submarines since late 2004... and mocking and belittling general foolishness wherever it may be found. Idaho's first and foremost submarine blog. (If you don't like something on this blog, please E-mail me; don't call me at home.)

Saturday, May 21, 2005

Connecticut Counterattacks BRAC

The New London Day has had the best coverage of the continuing efforts by various groups in Connecticut to save the Submarine Base in Groton; I'm hoping that they might relax their "registration required after one day" policy to let more cybervisitors read their coverage. While Governor Rell is focusing on the "we don't want to lose our jobs and all the federal money" angle that frankly sounds a little whiny, Senators Lieberman and Dodd seem to be going more for a "why do we need such a steep reduction in overall submarine numbers" that I think is more likely to sway BRAC commission members. (Yes, I know "BRAC commission" is like "ORSE exam" or "CAT team", but it sounds better.) [Update: Yes, I also know that the "C" in "BRAC" doesn't stand for "Commission", which renders my whole little comment irrelevant. I don't think it's fair to edit my stupid mistakes out, though, so I'll keep it in.] Excerpts from Bob Hamilton's latest article:

"U.S. Sens. Christopher J. Dodd and Joseph I. Lieberman, both D-Conn., fired off a letter to Navy Secretary Gordon R. England on Friday requesting β€œthe justification for this force level,” which was apparently approved in March, two months before the release of the list of bases to be closed...
"...Critics of the closure plan are questioning the 192-page Navy document's outlining of how Navy officials arrived at the conclusion that Groton should be closed, in particular the section where it says it revised the force-structure plan that it delivered to Congress in March 2004, which was supposed to guide the BRAC deliberations.
"The report says it is reducing the number of aircraft carriers from 12 to 11, an 8 percent drop, and the number of battle-force ships β€” cruisers, destroyers, frigates, submarines and other warships β€” from 378 in 2004 to between 341 and 370, which would be a cut of 2 percent to 11 percent.
"The only element of the battle-force ships that was broken out separately was submarines, which it noted have been reduced by 21 percent."


Of course, they're also going with the "the base is so old and polluted that we'll force you to spend any projected savings in cleaning it up before we take it back" argument that approaches whininess as well. [Money passage on Sen. Dodd: "He also asserted that the environmental cleanup at the vacated New England base would be enormous, saying that Navy officials who calculated the cost at $29 million were 'living in Disneyland.'"]

Hopefully this whole exercise will result in a national debate on the important role submarines play in our defense and why we shouldn't cut their numbers, but I predict it'll just degenerate into a "mean neo-cons want to take money from blue states" sh*t-slinging match.

Staying at PD...

Update 1345 21 May: CDR Salamander has a most excellent summary of this thoughts on the Navy side of BRAC.

9 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why do we need such a reduction in the number of submarines?
Because there is no enemy out there with anything that floats worth a $200,000 MK-48.
Subs cost too much and do too little. 13 years and 5 boats and All I have to show for it is an endless cycle of ins[ections and field days. Close the checkbook and shut em down!

5/21/2005 4:13 PM

 
Blogger Chap said...

The "reduction" they state was locked in years ago in the budgets and set in granite by the current CNO.

It'll take more than that to keep that from staying the same...

5/21/2005 10:51 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sattelites and AUV's can monitor enemy comms cheaper than subs.
Subs were not needed to launch tomoahawks against Afgahnistan, Surface ships can carry more of them and because of thier ability to go into shallower water than subs, were more usefull. With full control of the sea, we can launch tomahowks from barges towed by tugs. Thee has not been a Frogman lockout mission since the Korean war. Even there, we should build small diesel or or AIP boats that can submerge in shallow water for the SEAL Support mission.
All of these "New missions" is nothing more than an attempt to justify building more ORSE inspection platforms. A dozen boats on each coast can currently sink any potential enemy Navy with nothing more than a minor interruption of thier ORSE workup schedule. The budget is broken, we can no longer afford these expensive toys. Close the checkbook and shut em down!

5/22/2005 12:53 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What we really need is a total re focus on the sub force. the nuclear monopoly need to be broken.
35 or even fewer SSN's can do the job with the current threat. This is persuant to having smaller, cheaper diesel and AIP boats as force multipliers. We need an underwater SBU for SEAL support, An underwater "Fighter" type sub thancan operate out of an LSD's well deck, and of course SSN's capable of being underwater mosubs in the manner of the DSRV and ASDS.
Simply adding an extra large lockout chamber to a traditional ORSE inspection platform does not cut it.

5/22/2005 12:59 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Once again, it is about cost and expendability. The SSN does indeed have more endurance but what good is that if they can't get close enough to shore? What is needed is something small enough to enter a harbor fully submerged. Also, with the current "Submersible reactor plant" metality of current sub commanders, a CO would write off an entire SEAL platoon rather than risk his reactor plant. I have served under CO's who actually proclaimed that going to war was a violation of reactor safety regulations.

The 35 SSN's we are cutting back to will be more than enough if we have AIP boats as force multipliers.

5/22/2005 7:05 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Another thing to note:

Prior to WW2, there were a lot of costly flops in submarine design. It was thought that the Nautulus and Narwahl would be the premier boats of the war, they had 8" deck guns, external mine dispensers, and even external torpedo tubes. The Gato on the other hand were easier to mass poduce and thus, were expendable.
The Gato class became the premier boat of the war for several reasons, it was simpler and thus... more reliable, it was faster due to its smaller size and same horepower. And fianlly, it was expendable.

Likewise, it was not the Essex class carrier that won the war but the baby flat tops that went in where it was too dangerous to risk the large carriers. During the battle of Guadalcanal, the Admirals wrote off the Marines because they did not want to risk their carriers. They broadcast to the Marines "You are authorised to surrender". Later in the war, Jeep carriers AKA CVE's carried the day. Be it fighter aircraft, ships, or submarines...If you can't afford to lose it, you can't afford to use it.

5/22/2005 7:13 PM

 
Blogger Bubblehead said...

Don't worry, Ninme, we sub-bloggers don't put out the classified stuff here; plus, if we do, we can always claim we're going for disinformation.
I obviously disagree with bernie's probably tongue-in-cheek comments about the usefulness of submarines in today's world, but agree to a certain extent that the Sub Force leadership seems to be more interested in running drills than actual ops, at least to the guys on the deckplate. I'm not sure what it'll take to get rid of that mentality, but all I can do is hope it doesn't get worse.

5/22/2005 11:44 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A 688 canenter a harbor submerged? You know nothing of what the depth of PD is! You cannot submerge a 7000 ton SSN in 40 feet of water!

5/23/2005 8:46 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Having been a ships diver and later an EOD diver, I can tell you that I have made many a security swim on many moats in many harbors.
On most harbors, you can kneel on the bottom and still touch the keel of the boat above you. You cannot gat a glorifoed ORSE inspection platform into most harbors submerged. I have been on 5 boats in 13 years and all we ever did was work up for the next ORS or NTPI. Even when on a "Real Mission" our focus was always on drilling and field daying.
The sub force is just another corrupt self serving institution demanding billions of dollars for more ORSE inspection platforms.
The national debt is growing, the budget is broken. Close the checkbook and shut em down!

5/26/2005 7:19 PM

 

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