21st Century Sailor!
[While we're still waiting for the O-7 Line selection board results to come out, here's the 2-star list.]
SECNAV announced a major new initiative last week wherein, among other things, Sailors will have to take a breathalyzer test at random times, like showing up back at the boat after liberty in Phuket. Excerpts:
The secretary explained that the initiative consolidates a set of objectives and policies, new and existing, to maximize Sailor and Marine personal readiness. The programs are divided into five categories, or "areas"; readiness, safety, physical fitness, inclusion, and continuum of service.Not mentioned in the description of the duties of the 21st Century Sailor is sinking enemy ships and blowing up bad guys; that stuff is a pretty 20th century concept. Here's the reaction from one active duty officer, he doesn't like it. And here's the NAVADMIN announcing the new synthetic compound urinalysis initiative.
"The new defense strategy will put increased responsibilities on the Navy and Marine Corps in the years to come," the secretary said. "You are the department's most essential asset, and it is the duty of the department's leadership to do all we can to provide each individual Sailor and Marine with the resources to maintain that resiliency." Various programs fall under the readiness area, all of which help ensure we have the most mentally prepared service members and family in department history.
Continued emphasis on the responsible use of alcohol, zero tolerance for drug use, suicide reduction, family and personal preparedness, and financial and family stability all work together to prepare Sailors, Marines and their families for the challenges that they may face and reinforce healthy alternatives on liberty or off-duty. A new initiative will include breathalyzer tests when Sailors stationed onboard ships, submarines and at squadrons report for duty and randomly elsewhere to reduce the occurrence of alcohol related incidents that can end careers and sometimes end lives. This month, the Navy will begin random testing of urine samples for synthetic chemical compounds like Spice.
So what do you think? Will this new initiative make us more effective war-fighters?
posted by Bubblehead at 2:13 PM
191 Comments:
"A new initiative will include breathalyzer tests when Sailors stationed onboard ships, submarines and at squadrons report for duty and randomly elsewhere to reduce the occurrence of alcohol related incidents that can end careers and sometimes end lives."
That doesn't sound like the FOGOs or senior civilians that work for the USN will be much involved.
3/15/2012 2:37 PM
Anyone assigned to a submarine who has survived a lengthy shipyard overhaul or equivalent remembers the crew's first port call after being at sea long enough for those who have otherwise earned their dolphins to rack up enough sea time to receive them. Any breathlyzer given the following morning would find 80% or so of the non-duty section blowing 0.1 or higher. Is that gonna change or will the command ensure that the breathalyzer is OOC for a couple of days?
3/15/2012 2:43 PM
Submarines in Norfolk have been using a breathalyzer for a couple of years now. Every morning the entire duty section was required to blow and anyone over .02 was removed from standing watch until below that level.
3/15/2012 3:32 PM
Thank the Good Lord I am out. At my current job (at a plant with a lot more power that those I ran for the Navy)if we are CALLED IN, we get to blow. If we are showing up for a scheduled shift, we get treated like adults (gasp!)
How can you justify trusting these kids (18-22 years old)with a multi billion dollar vessel, important stuff like Rig for Dive, QA, small arms, etc. and then tell the same kid you don't trust them enough to be sober for work?
And where is the "leadership"? If I had showed up blitzed, my Chief would have had my butt. The same Chief would be telling these clowns where to stuff the breathalyzer...
3/15/2012 3:42 PM
So the fact that we have already surrendered to this gross lack of trust by having duty sections blow prior to taking duty is justification for extending this across the Navy??
WTF?
We used to call this leadership. And we held shipmates accountable for their actions.
Sad...
3/15/2012 6:31 PM
Mabus is not finished reforming the culture of U.S. submarines. His supernumerary female chops are only a clever prelude to what will come next.
Think of another type of supernumerary SSBN officer to fill the women's quota. The Soviet Union assigned them to subs (recall The Hunt for Red October).
Can't get by with "political officer", so what will Mabus or his successor (assuming CinC is re-elected) call this new breed of officer, and why will they have to be JAGs?
Potozni
3/15/2012 6:44 PM
Its amazing we are providing push back on the breathalyzer. How about be an adult and do not show up intoxicated. I come to work each day and expect to give 100% and receive 100%. I don't want a drunk slacker showing up for duty and causing a critique. We have had the detectors on my ship for the duration of my time onboard and so far the drunks have been taken care of. You would be surprised on any given day the amount of assholes showing up drunk and someone has to take their watch. The only drawback is, there are too many repeat offenders.
Signed,
Sober and standing watch!
3/15/2012 6:46 PM
Ime not think as you drunk I mam!
3/15/2012 6:48 PM
Lets be perfectly clear, regardless of the use there is a double standard. I know of one squadron down south that does not even require Khakis to blow. Only E-6 and below.
3/15/2012 6:50 PM
Woah on the 2-start list...I remember being an usher for his Change of Command Ceremony from CSS-4...in 2008...he was still a Captain then. I was a LT then...and still am.
Doesn't it usually work the other way?!
3/15/2012 6:56 PM
Breathalyzers...you have got to be kidding me! Where is the Navy Leadership to get rid of the damn drunks? When I was on a boat, our COB would send them to CCU, or our command would get rid of them entirely. You do not need breathalyzers, just Navy leadership with a set of balls!
3/15/2012 6:57 PM
I have two Chiefs. One Chief is constantly counseled for showing up late for work and most of the time intoxicated. The other is currently at NAS Jax in Rehab for alcohol abuse.Self referral so his khaki ass would not be in trouble.
We have one breathalyzer. You do the math and the scientific study...not working!
3/15/2012 7:04 PM
"II have two Chiefs. One Chief is constantly counseled for showing up late for work and most of the time intoxicated. The other is currently at NAS Jax in Rehab for alcohol abuse.Self referral so his khaki ass would not be in trouble."
WTF command is that? CMC/ CO are out of the loop (I hope!)
Duty section was blowing in Pearl years ago. A non-issue 98% of the time. The 2% we caught and shifted the watch bill around to cover might have saved a major incident report (SRO). Can you imagine the headlines & ensuing chaos over a story about drunk reactor operators!
3/15/2012 7:36 PM
Ok let me get this straight...
Reduce/eliminate benefits-to save money. ERB/PTS because we are over manned and need to reduce to save money. How much will the extra spice urinalysis cost? What will the breathalyzers cost? It will take money to upkeep, calibrate and keep the blow tubes in stock.
3/15/2012 8:05 PM
F.T.N.
3/15/2012 8:32 PM
Anyone have a bigger plate, mines full!
3/15/2012 8:40 PM
I don't know why you guys are saying that leadership has no spine. Gay Ray Mabus got up and said "we shall treat out sailors like children and breathalyze every last one of those sons of bitches". All of our dear leaders rogered up with an "Aye, Sir!" and made their navy proud!
I should hope that given the same set of difficult choices, that I coul fun the moral courage to do the same.
3/15/2012 8:59 PM
After the breathtest, the navy should include a polygraph and check for any multitude of impure thoughts. We could have sailors prove a "clean" family history, say back 100 years or so, to prove a mentally and physically fit background. Maybe we could instill stricter height and weight standards to get rid of undesirables. Yes, this 'military' branch could exist in parallel with the current military and answer only to the SECNAV, awaiting the disintigration of the military due to the impurities of the undesirables. We could have them go to special schools and have a different uniform...and rallies. Wait a minute, this kind of sounds familiar....
3/15/2012 9:02 PM
Served_ssn_co:
For an active duty officer, especially one who served in command, to make anonymous disparaging, personal remarks about SECNAV is completely out of line.
Disagree with a policy based on substance fine but you are out of line and it says more about you than the leadership.
Log you comments under unprofessional opposite leadership.
3/15/2012 11:39 PM
This quote remains ever relevant.
"Dude common sense was secured a long time ago."
3/16/2012 4:15 AM
To quote "John Paul Lejeune" from the article:
"To the CNO, CMC, [MCPON], and SgtMaj of the Marine Corps, here's my question: At what point will one of you four exercise your duty to tell the Secretary of the Navy, "Hey, Boss, WTF, over?" and that he really ought to fire whichever clown came up with this idea to screen everyone to identify serial alcohol abusers who are readily identifiable through other means. One or more of you needs to find the moral courage to recommend relegating this part of the initiative to the dustbin of really bad naval ideas."
That is all.
3/16/2012 4:22 AM
Don't remember where I read it, but it may have been on an Army blog, but it was about a young LT not pursuing some ambushers in Bagdad after the initial fire fight. When asked why he said he had no orders to pursue, just defend.
It seems that higher up was baffled by this lack of inititive.
The blogger asked something to the effect that on stateside PT runs, who makes the decision that it is too hot to run or to call off the run because of bad weather.
If I remember correct, the decision had to be shunted up to battalion or brigade level.
Well there you have it, said the blogger. How can you expect your young LTs to show inititive in combat when you don't even think they have sense enough to come in out of the rain in peacetime.
3/16/2012 6:20 AM
I'm doing this from memory, so it's paraphrased and not completely accurate, a quote from Lincoln about General Grant, when a lady complained about his whiskey drinking:
"He's successful. Find out what kind of whiskey he's drinking and I'll send a barrel to all the rest of my generals..."
Moderation in all things is a virtue for the righteous civilian. Warriors have generally been hard drinking, hard fighting, hard living types- more on the extreme side of life in all endeavors- a take it to the limit type of person.
If everyone in the military is treated like wusses, you'll eventually get a military full of- wusses. Even in this high-tech age, it still takes an 18 year old on the ground with a gun to actually control territory. And let me add- an 18 year old with a gun who is not afraid of using it for fear of being punished.
3/16/2012 6:51 AM
How do you call something "a major new initiative" when in fact all it does is destroys initiative?
I agree, I also work at a civilian nuke and know I could blow in the tube/provide a sample at any time. But to sit there and piss on the integrity of our people is really telling them they aren't to be trusted, despite all the times they've been told otherwise.
Just one more reason why, when my son or daughter asks if they should join the service, I'll probably tell them for one enlistment only, if at all.
3/16/2012 7:11 AM
I won't defend or admonish the drinkers. It really isn't the point.
Sure, hung-over can sometimes cause problems while on watch, but it, in my experience, is kinda rare. They just slow things down.
What caused more problems were fucking retards. I always said 90% of all stupid new rules on the boat were because of Nucs and NUBs. (i.e. A-gang has to smash trash because the trash smasher qual card wasn't sufficient to prevent a fucking retard from smashing his arm in the compactor)
So, the real question is this; Does Mabus have a "fucking retard test" in the works? We were able to take care of them in the olden da. . . before now, all by ourselves. Now, I hear yelling at someone is above the threshold of discipline. Ass-whoopin and out-casting by peers is a very effective training tool. Leadership should start at a lower level than khaki.
Then one day, politics got involved. Little Billy was denied submarines because he was a fucking retard. Well, we can't have that, says little Billy's mother. I'll just write my Congressman. Next thing you know, there is little Billy - smashing his arm in the compactor.
And with the new rules, the leadership that IS left - the real chiefs/officers (who have no more influence on Navy policy than I do), can't even get a few drinks in them to prevent a murder/suicide situation. God bless the tea-totaling, Dudley Doright assholes for enforcing policy.
It is bad Karma to wish bad things on stupid people, so all I can do is pray for patience and reward for the good guys.
3/16/2012 7:44 AM
Anon at 3/15/2012 6:46 PM
"Its amazing we are providing push back on the breathalyzer. How about be an adult and do not show up intoxicated.". Only showed up for work drunk ONCE, and the command knew it when they called me in, and I was even given a duty driver ride!
"I come to work each day and expect to give 100% and receive 100%. I don't want a drunk slacker showing up for duty and causing a critique." Thanks for doing your job. I would expect nothing less, demand nothing more, and hope you hold me to the same standard.
"We have had the detectors on my ship for the duration of my time onboard and so far the drunks have been taken care of. You would be surprised on any given day the amount of assholes showing up drunk and someone has to take their watch." Yeah, we had that, too. we juggled the watchbill to make it work, and screwed them over on the next duty day. But we didn't need a breathalyzer to figure they were drunk, and we handled it at our level. The BIG NAVY never got the chance to screw them over.
"The only drawback is, there are too many repeat offenders.". That is why the report chit was invented. Document the previous screwups, and hammer if the behavior isn't fixed.
3/16/2012 8:20 AM
But one thing to consider, Ross--there's a lot of difference in lifestyle or work/life balance when running a civilian plant versus a Navy one.
The NRC merely puts into writing what we've known since graduating boot and going into the pipeline--coming to work drunk/hungover is a big no-no and your pee-pee (or these days, vagina) will get smacked well and hard for it.
Those who do it more than once or do it to such a degree as to be a hazard were pretty effectively dealt with back in the day, and as has been opined, Big Navy need not have been involved.
Yeah, we all have our tales of drunken debauchery, and a few of us have taken the watch or driven home from Wave Waikiki when we shouldn't have. Got it. Those folks 1--eventually get caught, 2--didn't last long, then or now.
This whole thing is just a "feel good" which plays well with PC-types and do-gooders who haven't served and have no idea of the concept of taking care of your own in action or ever seeing it work.
What's next, Ross--fatigue rules on the boat? I'd laugh my balls off if that ever happened.
3/16/2012 8:58 AM
Yeah - working fatigue rules into a sub schedule would be - "entertaining"? But htey'd figure a way around it...
"Hours spent during Field Day, Clean up Ship, after watch Cleanup, GMT, battle Stations, Maneuvering watch, drills and other All Hands evolutions are exempt from fatigue Rule considerations and shall be counted as sleep time".
That would do, don't you think?
3/16/2012 9:04 AM
And of course, coners would be "uncovered personnel."
12 days off in a 42 day period? Again, it is to laugh, although my understanding is they got rid of that requirement--too bad our company software hasn't been updated and every time I try to work Saturday it comes up red.
3/16/2012 9:14 AM
So what do you think? Will this new initiative make us more effective war-fighters?
Here's one answer...Isaiah 2:4:
וְשָׁפַט֙ בֵּ֣ין הַגֹּויִ֔ם וְהֹוכִ֖יחַ לְעַמִּ֣ים רַבִּ֑ים וְכִתְּת֨וּ חַרְבֹותָ֜ם לְאִתִּ֗ים וַחֲנִיתֹֽותֵיהֶם֙ לְמַזְמֵרֹ֔ות לֹא־יִשָּׂ֨א גֹ֤וי אֶל־גֹּוי֙ חֶ֔רֶב וְלֹא־יִלְמְד֥וּ עֹ֖וד מִלְחָמָֽה׃ פ
"He shall judge between the nations, and impose terms on many peoples. They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; One nation shall not raise the sword against another, nor shall they train for war again."
Just sayin'.
- The One
3/16/2012 9:41 AM
When I worked for an electric utility, a small portion of people in our business unit (mostly guys who worked on stuff in the field vs. office worker types) were randomly breathalyzed/piss tested each day. If you had any sort of safety-related incident during the work day, you were subject to the same or face immediate suspension. Most of these guys had Commercial Driver's Licenses so they could drive company bucket trucks and such. The company had a huge alcohol problem, where the liquid lunch was the rule and not the exception...the breathalyzers eventually took care of that problem...and the folks adjusted to the situation.
The only people that are offended by being "carded" when buying alcohol are those who aren't old enough to buy.
The only people that are offended by having to take a breathalyzer are those that are drunk.
It's just like a piss test...only easier. Get the fuck over it.
3/16/2012 9:45 AM
This comment has been removed by the author.
3/16/2012 9:59 AM
From a different perspective, I never drank and certainly never "experimented" with drugs even before the Navy. Retired last year.
I found urinalysis insulting. I would find the breathalyzer even more insulting.
While I never drank, I drove a damn lot of sailors back to the boat/home/barracks. Sometimes I had juniors who showed up for duty smelling pickled, and I did 2 things; I made them well aware that it was obvious, and then I kept them out of trouble. They were my shipmates (before it became a derogatory term).
Breathalyzers are just false leadership.
Rackburn
3/16/2012 10:36 AM
They shall beat their swords into plowshares
"Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who kept their swords." --Benjamin Franklin
3/16/2012 10:42 AM
I used to take my "unfit for duty" sailors and turn them over to the Boiler Tech Chief for a day of bilge maintenance duty.
I had no repeat offenders.
3/16/2012 11:07 AM
The only people that are offended by being "carded" when buying alcohol are those who aren't old enough to buy.
Seriously? Those are the ONLY people. I guess, by your logic, the only people who are offended by the intrusive screening by the TSA are the terrorists.
I don't condone drinking on the job, but man what an uptight, self-righteous asshole you appear to be. I will bet you drive 54 MPH in the fast lane because "The Man" said 55 - not 56 - 55.
Go stick your arm in the compactor; Billy.
3/16/2012 11:20 AM
When we did a tiger cruise from Oahu to Hawaii we had to be at the boat at 0430..as deck div lpo I harped on my guys to not do shit the night before and be on time...then, my roomate got a call from a friend of his, she and her friend were in town...we were going to have ONE drink....I don't remember anything about the maneuvering watch, which is probably a bad thing for the fathometer operator to say...I would have been nailed hard (in the bad way) had we had breathalizers, and I would have deserved the shit out of it. I was generally a very responsible person, 5.0 evals that whole thing. The moral to the story...even smart responsible 21 year olds do some stupid irresponsible things. Bring on the breathalizers, it doesn't hurt the Navy to set a higher standard.
3/16/2012 11:31 AM
Snopes.com on the alleged Benjamin Franklin quote:
http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=101;t=000361;p=0
Thought to check it out, as Ben Franklin was a Puritan. I know someone who's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather was a Puritan...unlike some today (and then), they didn't tend to sass the Bible too much.
Y'might want to reload...from someplace besides 'the Internet.'
Just sayin'.
- The One
3/16/2012 11:53 AM
Seriously? Those are the ONLY people. I guess, by your logic, the only people who are offended by the intrusive screening by the TSA are the terrorists.
Where to start?
Comparisons between ANYTHING in civilian life (like the TSA's "intrusive" screening) to life as squid are useless. You don't get a choice.
TSA screenings keep me safe. If you're offended by intrusive screening, just don't use airports. You have a choice. Sailors do not have a choice, disobeying orders has direct consequences.
If you're a squid (which I highly doubt), you have to do what they say. If you're offended by it and it matters THAT much to you, I guess you can just separate when your time comes. Otherwise just STFU and blow into the tube.
3/16/2012 12:34 PM
TSA screenings keep me safe.
Horseshit. It's pure theater meant to create a false sense of security for the sheep. Because strip-searching five-year olds isn't going to stop Achmed or Mohammed, who, if bound and determined to create another 9/11 will do just that.
Or perhaps you can ask folks like Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab how well those security rules worked. Yeah, I know, he boarded his flight overseas, but every single red flag popped up and nobody did jack shit. Because, let's face it, we're not going to focus on the obvious problem, that might be considered "profiling" and offend someone.
So it goes with breathalyzers--no, let's create a smokescreen to fuck over everyone because a few people acted like jagoffs. What a great message that sends to our folks. And while I'm subject to FFD testing, it's not nearly as pervasive (or invasive) as Big Navy wants to make this issue. Sorry, not gonna buy the bullshit on this one.
Next.
And anon--if you're going to use snopes as a reference, don't.
3/16/2012 12:50 PM
@nhsparky 3/16/2012 8:58 AM
"...and your pee-pee (or these days, vagina) will get smacked well and hard for it.
I get the reference however they have different functions thus not comparable. Smack'em up side the head is generic enough even for Billy.
3/16/2012 1:06 PM
Retired in 2000.
Blow into my tube, little Billy. Go tell you mother she loves you.
3/16/2012 1:09 PM
NHSparky said...
TSA screenings keep me safe.
Horseshit. It's pure theater meant to create a false sense of security for the sheep. Because strip-searching five-year olds isn't going to stop Achmed or Mohammed, who, if bound and determined to create another 9/11 will do just that.
*****************
Pretty much has it all there.
When you search Catholic nuns with someone wearing a hajab (the unretouched photos do exist somewhere on this internet) you're not looking for the real problem; you are engaged in security theatre.
When you make EVERYONE going into the MICHIE stadium go through a metal detector, you are engaged in security theatre.
When you make grown men and Boy Scouts give up their pocketknives to enter public buildings anywhere, or stadia, or malls, or anywhere else, you are engaged in security theatre.
That zero tolerance for knives in school bit is one of my biggest pet peeves. I carried a pocketknife everyday to school; graduated HS in 1973. It was real handy for opening the bales of apper to start my paper route after school. Rules for simple- not no knives, but--- no threatening others with the knives. Not hard to understand.
The only difference between a tool and a weapon is how you use it.
3/16/2012 1:18 PM
Or perhaps you can ask folks like Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab how well those security rules worked. Yeah, I know, he boarded his flight overseas, but every single red flag popped up and nobody did jack shit. Because, let's face it, we're not going to focus on the obvious problem, that might be considered "profiling" and offend someone.
How come people can't stay focused? I'm fairly confident that the fleeing terrorist didn't have any guns, knives, or bombs on his person, thanks to the "intrusive searching" of the TSA, even if the no fly list (which nobody was talking about) didn't work so well.
I'm sure that when the piss test was introduced to "weed" out illegal drug users, there was the same sort of outrage. Perhaps the implications of breathalyzers will help your hopelessly alcoholic shipmates to get some help. It won't be a problem for anyone with any willpower.
3/16/2012 1:38 PM
I think that is the point all together.
Those with any will power don't show up to work drunk.
Those who do, it is obvious and deckplate leadership should take care of it.
We don't need breathalyzers or alciwands to indentify it. Talk to your guys, if their eminating booze from their pores, send 'em to the valve station after running the shit pump for 5 hours straight. Easy fix.
I'm really not opposed to breathalyzers. I am opposed to senior leadership thinking it is a readiness solution.
3/16/2012 1:50 PM
A real quote from Benjamin Franklin, the Puritan...with source...for your enlightenment:
"All wars are follies, very expensive and very mischievous ones. In my opinion, there was never a good war or a bad peace. When will mankind be convinced and agree to settle their difficulties by arbitration?" -- Benjamin Franklin
3/16/2012 2:45 PM
Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind.
3/16/2012 2:53 PM
But its OK to to drop a load in Yeomans ass........
3/16/2012 3:12 PM
I was in back in the 80's when the zero tolerance drug policy came out. the piss tests came back for the first year busting 30% or more after that they tapered off to 2-4%. is it still that way? Zero tolerance meant that you were not on the commands fair haired boy list.
I imaginable the breathalyzer will go the same way.
Harold i know what you mean, graduated HS in 79 in MD 1 week of deer season then, we hunted on the way to school and on the way home. kept the rifle in our car during the school day and our skinning knives in our lockers. There were fight during deer season but they were settled with fists. I guess we had more common sense then.
3/16/2012 4:03 PM
I’ve been out awhile but back in the day, having a breathalyzer in the morning would have been a challenge. Anonymous @ 6:46, Bite me. You say ship so you must be a skimmer. I agree that coming in for “Duty” you should not be drunk but having a morning after the night before does not necessarily stop you from working.
I understand and support drug testing. Drugs are illegal. Test them, pop them and get rid of them. Alcohol is not and can be abused. However, if a sailor can’t function, hold that sailor accountable. Back in the early 80’s a lot started to change. The XO stood outside the enlisted clubs at lunch and took names and those names had to go to Alcohol Counseling. Didn’t stop anything.
That Damn Good Looking Aganger From Iowa
3/16/2012 5:34 PM
"I'm sure that when the piss test was introduced to "weed" out illegal drug users, there was the same sort of outrage."
I was around at the time. There was no outrage. Many sailors, including me, welcomed it. Druggies brought the same kind of violence into the barracks that they brought into civilian life. If you turned them in, or they suspected you might, woe be unto you. The command certainly could not protect you.
And, drug use isn't as obvious as alcohol use. And, the effects on judgement and co-ordination are cumulative over time. Talk to any long term stoner and you'll see that.
And, the tests were random- everyone got it, but at random times. Everyone- including officers. The program was seen as fair. Drug use dropped off the cliff almost immediately after instituting random urinalysis.
Alcohol is a whole different story. Especially testing EVERYONE. Why? You're sending a message- all you sailors are untrustworthy swine.
There is a long history of militayies and alcohol use. The only history of any type of military force and drugs is the original assassins. And even that may be conjecture.
3/16/2012 5:38 PM
As a Senior Chief told me today, "A breathalyzer is not a problem - they only check you at the beginning of the work day!". Mousetraps for Sailors only catch the dumb mice. The rest will adapt and overcome in order to do what they will do anyway, be it a liquid lunch or having a toot right after blowing...
This isn't a widespread problem in my opinion, and blowing in a tube isn't going to suddenly make the entire Navy sober. But it is ONE MORE THING we have to do in an already busy life on boats. I can only imagine that soon we will have to draw up reports and file paperwork to prove how many Sailors blow any given day, and then document the crap out of our corrective actions (with a POAM approved by the oh so helpful Squadron) whenever we have 'a Billy' case who had one too many Mud Slides after midnight at Moose's and popped .02 at 0730.
3/16/2012 6:26 PM
TSA screenings keep me safe. If you're offended by intrusive screening, just don't use airports. You have a choice. Sailors do not have a choice, disobeying orders has direct consequences.
This is the same sort of fuckstick who, when told to "Bend over," asks, "How far?"
3/16/2012 8:02 PM
I'm old, I know three of the people on the two star list. I remember ADM Breckenridge when he was a LT Navigator back in the late 80's.
3/16/2012 8:05 PM
@served
Hey poser, bogart someone else's moniker.
For my part, I'm not a fan of this idea.
3/17/2012 1:36 AM
If I hear another person say "the breathalyzer is not a problem" I will blow chunks! It is a problem. We are adding another device ( and paperwork) to an already jammed morning when reporting to work. For the men and women who are still active, you have to get up at 0-dark thirty to start your trek in, you fight your way to work through the piss-poor security at the gate, walk 1-2 miles out from the ship due to force protection measures, finally get on the boat and some requirement makes everyone blow into a saturated device(by the other 30 people before you) that registers on every known mouthwash to man. Not only do you have to log the bad results, but big Navy wants to see you justify the use so you log in every sample. You do 15 samples and wait the required time in between and before you know it someone is relieving the second watch. The log is ridiculous, the device is ridiculous, there is no way this device replaces good ole fashioned CPO leadership. Take off the training wheels and other devices and treat people with respect and dignity. The job is hard enough as it is. If someone is tanked repeatedly after being told, do the paperwork and execute. He does not get it and does not need to be part of the club! Stop the Insanity!
3/17/2012 4:25 AM
News flash! Drugs are illegal, alcohol is not. Two different tests for two different things.
3/17/2012 5:19 AM
"We are adding another device ( and paperwork) to an already jammed morning when reporting to work."
Yeah - getting that morning muster report together is grueling work!
3/17/2012 7:31 AM
@ "The One:"
Benjamin Franklin was not a Puritan. He was just related to some. It's hard to say exactly what he was beyond Christian (if he was even that; Deist is probably a better description of his beliefs for most of his life). You may take as further evidence of his non-Puritanism his illegitimate child and numerous French mistresses.
3/17/2012 1:49 PM
Another delay on a another enlisted board?
3/17/2012 2:48 PM
Yup. The convening order for the E-9 board, including board membership, was compromised. It will be reconvened with new members.
3/17/2012 4:55 PM
Both of Benjamin Franklin's parents were Puritans, and he was baptized in a Puritan church. Maybe he didn't think he was a Puritan...but he did consider himself a true Christian.
Returning to what matters: not too many true Christians go around sassing the Bible...including Franklin. The "quote" regarding plowshares attributed to him is bogus.
Just sayin'.
-- The One
3/17/2012 5:55 PM
This just confirms my suspicions that we need to look into the enlisted boards. There seems to be a lot of home cooking. I am sure that that was a non-enlisted who blew the whistle on this. This has been a problem for awhile. Good on the individual who caught this.
3/17/2012 6:48 PM
Anonymous said...
Yeah - getting that morning muster report together is grueling work!
3/17/2012 7:31 AM
Looks like you really paid attention to what went on in the morning on a operational command. What a DA!
3/17/2012 7:30 PM
For the embilcile Anon at 3/17/2012 7:31 AM
Where you even cognizant during the morninig muster report? Must be a nuke, no one would even quote that unless they were the dreg of society. Its bottom feeders like you that we have induced the breathalyzers. "mornig muster report" I guess once you got past that your taxing day of intellectual interaction was complete.
3/17/2012 7:34 PM
I do not understand the pre-occupation with chasing sailors who drink. Given the demands placed on them who gives a damn if a sailor goes out on Sunday night with the boys to watch a football game and have a few beers? What happened, the daily Command reminders, dial-a-chief cards, events planned with the "right spirit", Commodore musters over a DUI, and "intrusive leadership" hasn't worked. No shit! We breed alcoholism in the very lifestyle we force our sailors to live and we can't seem to acknowledge that because those that make policy have never had to suck it up for a lengthy underway period, port and starbord for a month and then be dumped off in Palma de Mallorca for only two days until it starts all over again. Or they are so far removed they've forgotton.
3/17/2012 7:42 PM
Anon
What happened, the daily Command reminders, dial-a-chief cards, events planned with the "right spirit", Commodore musters over a DUI, and "intrusive leadership" hasn't worked
I agree, the basis behind our thought process is to condition the sailors. If you want to rid DUI's from the military, then ban alcohol. If not...live with the results. We are a country of free speech and freedom and TV ads on alcohol all the time.
3/17/2012 8:09 PM
This just confirms my suspicions that we need to look into the enlisted boards. There seems to be a lot of home cooking. I am sure that that was a non-enlisted who blew the whistle on this. This has been a problem for awhile. Good on the individual who caught this.
Once the economy turns around, Big Navy will see the other side of this coin. And they thought SRBs were huge a few years ago, just wait until "ERB" gets lumped with the many other cons in a pro vs. con re-enlistment discussion.
3/17/2012 8:25 PM
Welcome to 100% nookism leadership. Do as I say, not as I do. Zero tolerance.
God bless all you active guys, you've got a tough row to hoe.
GIFR.
hagar
3/18/2012 1:43 AM
For our distinguished panel that has retired ten years ago, you do not know the BS that today's sailors have to endure. GMT, online training, constant Annual (quarterly occurence) outside directed training and seminars, road shows, dui comedians, scared straight, sex signals, and quarterly Information assurance training. These are all programs our distinguished leaders have developed and put thier "15 minutes of fame" stamp on. Throw in reduced manning, reduced resources and a uniform change yearly. Instead of pullling out the service jacket to review his record, there are 6 websites (he needs with a 7 character password) that he has to access to know if his life is in order. Hopefully he will be able to access it on (1)one of the available computers where he works and the network is not completely bogged down and busy. The 21st Sailor truly just tries to survive. Now with all of this added pressure and stress, lets bump up his working hours and tell him he has to stay in shape by coming in 3 times a week to do command PT before working hours(6 am). These are the single sailors, married, 19 years old with kids, that guy doesnt stand a chance. So I fully understand why a sailor drinks himself into oblivion and really could care less. So lets add more to his day, let's breathlyze the hell out of everyone. Lets add a few more programs that will help get him throughout the day. Last, but not least let's add the term "do more with less" and be proud to say it!
3/18/2012 6:08 AM
Prediction 1: Retention tails off significantly second half 2012.
Prediction 2: Big Navy doesn't try to course correct until late 2013.
3/18/2012 7:03 AM
News flash! Drugs are illegal, alcohol is not. Two different tests for two different things.
News flash! Reporting to work drunk is illegal, and always has been.
A bitching sailor is a happy sailor. Thank goodness that the powers that be keep providing new fresh ideas.
3/18/2012 8:00 AM
A bitching sailor thats never heard, becomes a highly educated and expensive loss to the Navy!
3/18/2012 8:36 AM
"Prediction 1: Retention tails off significantly second half 2012." - anon @ 7:03 AM
Making the shortage of male volunteers Navy lied about a reality.
Think, what gender might a real shortage of males benefit?
Potozn1
3/18/2012 12:35 PM
Are we just 21st Century Sailors orguinea pigs?
3/18/2012 2:20 PM
anon 3/18/2012 6:08 AM:
You were describing reality until you delved into the only way to survive is to drink your way through it. Speak with your feet and do not feel your opinion doesn't count on the way out. Let everyone know too much is too much. "More with less" is bullshit. It assumes you (we) have been sitting around doing nothing and can now tap into that unused potential.
Didn't SUBLANT vow to get rid of all the extra BS? What ever came of that? Breathalyzers will help(?).
3/18/2012 3:39 PM
"More with less" is bullshit. It assumes you (we) have been sitting around doing nothing and can now tap into that unused potential.
Didn't SUBLANT vow to get rid of all the extra BS? What ever came of that? Breathalyzers will help(?).
3/18/2012 3:39 PM
The DUSW was supposed to rid us of the external BS and let us do our jobs, however it has induced more BS pain. I have a 10 hour day jammed into 8 right now. The breathalyzer is one of the burdens on the sub force and its not even used like its intended.There is a double standard on its usage. On my command right now we hammer the crap out of the junior sailors nothing is done with the E-7 and above. Every now and then one junior sailor will come in over the .02 limit and he gets the morning off till he's below the limit, add in three watches between 1200 and 0400, and a shit load of EMI. Probably well-deserved based on his condition in the first place. However, if a Chief rolls in reaking of alocohol and he's the DCPO or EDPO since he does not play by the same rules(no E-7 and above get breathalyzed)he gets to hit the nauga and sleep it off. The CPO who he relieved already bailed even after he knew he was incapacitated. We see that, no way do we look up to the quarters. Well cannot get anything done till the DCPO sobers up. The Wardroom is just as bad, they know whats going on and turn their heads. We have brought this up to the COB and he listens, but we don't see any action. Hell right now one of my chiefs is at rehab as I write this. The more we do this, the more I see of my shipmates walking. I won't do another tour.This is not the Navy my pop told me about!
3/18/2012 6:35 PM
What ship are you on? There are people fairly senior that read the comments here.
You might be able to get the eye of Mordor looking in your ship's direction. I'm not saying it will actually change anything, because everybody in the Navy higher than E-7 on the E side and O-4 on the O side is mostly worthless. You will make the CO/COB have some bad days, however, so it might be worth it. Frankly, it sounds like they deserve it.
3/18/2012 7:54 PM
You were describing reality until you delved into the only way to survive is to drink your way through it.
Give me another choice! Every after work function has alcohol. The socials I attend have alcohol and they are hosted at a bar. The Sub Ball and the Navy Ball is laced with alcoholics. The Mini Mart has it as you enter the door.
3/18/2012 7:57 PM
What are we actually telling the 21st sailor in this day and time. The horizon looks bleak, with possible future cuts; manning, benefits and resources to do the job.
3/19/2012 4:09 AM
..no E-7 and above get breathalyzed)he gets to hit the nauga and sleep it off...
What boat are you on? Either put up or shut up, because I would be shocked if that is the truth. I think this program is silly for the most part but it is what it is and I ALWAYS blow in the tube as DCPO in front of the crew who also have to in the morning. I make the oncoming SDO do it also.
3/19/2012 7:03 AM
Admiral Foggo is wearing a ridiculous number of hats.
3/19/2012 9:31 AM
I think this program is silly for the most part but it is what it is and I ALWAYS blow in the tube as DCPO in front of the crew who also have to in the morning.
It's obvious that ain't all you blow. Another fine example of khaki pants leadership; spineless and weak. So glad I voted with my feet.
3/19/2012 10:27 AM
OT, but interesting. In today's New York Times: "Built for Speed -- A Vertical Submarine."
3/19/2012 2:04 PM
More from today's news...yet another skimer joke:
Norfolk, VA - Police in Virginia Beach today interrogated a suspect by placing a metal colander on his head and connecting it with wires to a photocopy machine. The message "He's lying" was placed in the copier, and police pressed the copy button each time they thought the suspect wasn't telling the truth. Believing the "lie detector" was working, the suspect confessed. The suspect is currently stationed aboard USS Vella Gulf (CG 72), in Norfolk, VA.
3/19/2012 2:15 PM
{For our distinguished panel that has retired ten years ago, you do not know the BS that today's sailors have to endure. }
Why do you think we got out, Einstein?
3/19/2012 3:54 PM
wow, who would have thought a breathalyzer would cause so much PMS?
it takes 10-15 SECONDS to breathalyze someone
I repeat. 10-15 seconds
You can do the entire crew every single morning with ease before Liberty expires. People start trickling in around 5 AM and by 7 AM the whole crew is usually onboard.
The Brow Watch can easily hit each guy as he come onboard. This is my 3rd boat and it's been instituted at various times onboard each. Process is very easy actually to employ
Figure that 1/3 the crew is already onboard on duty, and it's even easier...get the picture. It isn't rocket science guys.
As far as demeaning or sending a negative message to sailors....Breathalyzers aren't used without a reason! My boat had a bad problem lately with morons coming to work drunk or badly hung-over.
We've instituted the Breathalyzer at Duty Section turnover each day. Every single person blows. SDO/DCPO/EDO/EDPO and all enlisted.
Would you knowingly get blind drunk if you had to blow the next day? Would you knowingly drink yourself into a stupor if you had duty in <5 hours?
When someone does blow positive, that person gets to sit on crews mess until they blow negative. Their LPO gets called in, and the senior person from that division that had duty prior day has to stand-by for them.
Peer pressure alone helps fix this. Not to mention the EMI and other punishments awarded. We've had several cases of drunken sailor reporting for duty. Nobody has gone to mast. The command is employing good techniques to solve this issue.
You still get the occasional retard. But for the most part we get maybe 1-2 guys per month who are unfit for duty.
I believe breathalyzers do work. The job sucks. But blaming your inability to be an adult and do your job is pure laziness. Grow up and lay off the alcohol crutch. A breathalyzer is just added incentive to be a good boy and DO YOUR DAMN JOB
and now the drunken malingerer's will commence to call me names
3/20/2012 2:54 AM
^^^^
||||
He gets it.
3/20/2012 5:22 AM
mm1/ss,
Correct me if I am wrong but the examples you cited were implemented by your command because of a known problem. The command was showing initiative and leadership - not being hammered from on high whether they had a problem or not.
My last boat had an alcohol problem for a year or so, it was painful to say the least. The worst "initiative" was following one of the incidents (on a weekend of course) the crew was mustered in the off crew building. This was directed by the Commodore - not the command. Biggest bunch of bullshit. Talk about a message that wasn't received.
3/20/2012 5:57 AM
@MM1/SS (Nuc type)
You have some serious misconceptions going on there...You managed to mix in mental illnesses (retard), alcohol abuse (morons coming to work drunk ), malingering (clearly used out of context here), and alcoholism (alcohol crutch) all in the same post. If you understood the differences then you would know that only alcohol abuse can be effected by the use of a breathalizer.
3/20/2012 7:15 AM
Good job MM1.
3/20/2012 7:45 AM
FACE OF PIGGGGG!!!!!
PLEASE FUCK MEEEE!!!
i need sex...
please i´m desperarer
3/20/2012 8:47 AM
We just had a DUI last week from a FNG. Haven't had one in close to 2 years. Now it becomes painfull for everyone...
3/20/2012 8:57 AM
A bird farm in home port has a crew of 3,000. On 3 section duty, that means that every morning, 2,000 people will blow for alcohol.
Only an idiot or a test kit stock holder could come up with something like this.
3/20/2012 9:10 AM
We use terms today like"blow off steam", "tie one on", "hit it to hard" and "run with the big dogs" and they all usually end up with not being able to function the next day, late for work, ill, or even worse DUI/ARI. The latter means NJP, contract termination or both. Most sane individuals with responsibiity riding on their every decision, if afforded the fore thought would tell you its not worth it. So why would I want to spend money on a device that requires constant attention and upkeep to detect drunks when "good order and discipline" says make them a definite example and terminate their membership to this canoe club! Those individuals obviously do not care about much.
3/20/2012 9:33 AM
Only the Submarine Force stands 3 (or if you are lucky 4) section duty. Surface ships, including carriers stand 8 (or if you are unlucky 6) section duty. Plus on the carrier, a SIGNIFICANT portion of the crew does not stand duty at all.
3/20/2012 9:36 AM
0936 Anon:
Topsiders get those kinds of rotation. Nucs are ecstatic when it looks like we might reach 5, if so-and-so passes his board and nobody is lost.
It rarely happens, even when shut down.
3/20/2012 12:29 PM
"Only the Submarine Force stands 3 (or if you are lucky 4) section duty." Anon 9:36 AM
If true, things have certainly improved in nuclear subs. Port and starboard watches for nucs was de rigueur in my years (even in port if you were unlucky).
3/20/2012 3:04 PM
I wasn't talking about watch rotation, I was talking about duty day rotation. On a surface ship if you stand duty more than once every six days something is really wrong and the crew is ready to mutiny.
3/20/2012 4:03 PM
Been on three boats and still an MM1(SS)? Talk about malingering.
EM1(SS/DV) six and out.
3/20/2012 6:43 PM
EM1(SS/DV) six and out.
And the fleet is better for it.
3/20/2012 7:32 PM
And the fleet is better for it.
Sez the bitter lifer. BTW, how is that pussification process going, I mean besides losing one to bangin' a chief, and three others for falsifying reimbursement claims?
3/20/2012 8:33 PM
BTW, how is that pussification process going...
Not bad, how's that bitter ex-nuke thing working out for you?
I mean, besides when you hang out on a submarine blog trying to feel better about yourself.
3/20/2012 9:00 PM
Not bad, how's that bitter ex-nuke thing working out for you?
Not too bad considering I'm on track to pull down $250K this year. Glad I got that nuke training.
3/20/2012 9:17 PM
With the passage of time, the Office 2010 applications are gradually integrated the Microsoft office 2007 download is considered a de facto standard development documentation
3/21/2012 2:00 AM
Not bad, how's that bitter ex-nuke thing working out for you?
Not too bad considering I'm on track to pull down $250K this year. Glad I got that nuke training.
Oh snap!
3/21/2012 4:22 AM
Benjamin Franklin wasn't a Puritan, or a Diest.
Benjamin Franklin was an SSBN.
v/r,
Rackburn
3/21/2012 5:49 AM
I'm on track to pull down $250K this year.
Oh snap!
Not really, anyone could have predicted that reply. It's like the mating call of the ex-nuke.
What always mystifies me about some ex-nukes is how they always forget that it's the Navy that gave them that valuable training.
So many nukes act like they're special little flowers that were destined for greatness when most of them were mediocre high school graduates that were trained to be the successful guys they are today, pulling down $250K.
But if you'd rather take time to criticize an MM1 who still honorably serves, knock yourself out. Many of us are proud to be the "lifer" you criticize so easily.
3/21/2012 6:53 AM
It's not the fact that one chooses to stay in for 20+ that makes one a "lifer," it's the attitude and skills (or lack thereof) of the particular individual. There is a difference. MM1/SS Three Boat is a "Lifer."
3/21/2012 9:58 AM
Oh, and the Navy didn't "give" me anything. They got my services for a pittance and all the BS that went along with it. Don't get me wrong, it was great training, but I wasn't "given" anything. Looking back with hindsight, would I do it again? Yes under the original circumstances, but no under today's PC climate.
3/21/2012 10:04 AM
Anonymous 10:04
ditto, got out in 87 after 8
3/21/2012 3:17 PM
Recently, had to attend a Captains Mast for a 22 year old who had an ARI. He sprained his ankle playing basketball after drinking 3 beers. No embarrassing incident, no fighting, no issues. As his DH, told XO and CO that this was crazy. Good guy, no problems in the past. Playing a game of pickup with friends. Same week was forced to go to a Dining In. 90 percent of the wardroom was drunk. Some were drunk and belligerent to the point that local national law enforcement was called to the hotel where it was held. We are overseas. No one attending had an "ARI" label assigned to them. Asked the CO "WTF?" Response was that I was too close to the those in my department and that I should be looking up and not down for a source of comfort. Unbelievable. As former enlisted glad I have enough to retire. Put in my paperwork that afternoon. BTW this is not Submarine Force command. But just as stupid!
3/21/2012 3:45 PM
Anon 3/21/2012 3:45 PM
All I can say is "WOW"! Words cannot describe my thoughts right now.
3/21/2012 4:48 PM
Like all other "standards" this one will go slack once again when the manning-tide turns and we're hurting for sailors.
3/21/2012 5:34 PM
Anon at 1545, I feel your pain. As a new department head in the shipyard, one of my QMs had a real alcohol problem, not the BS kind you had to put up with.
My QM was playing basketball over lunch day afer duty and sprained his ankle, so they took him to the base hospital. A blood alcohol test was standard procedure there when admitted for testing. He blew a 0.4. That's not a typo. The doctor was wondering how he was still alive, much less playing full court basketball, with a BAC of 0.4.
Because he was a good guy, the command tried to get him some help. I left town for my wedding a couple of days later, but not before telling him that I wanted him to still be there when I returned from my honeymoon. Alas, on his next day after duty, he asked the QMC if he could get off early to register for classes at the local junior college. But my QM ran his car off the road at 1030. The responding police officer gave him a BAC test and my QM blew another 0.4.
He got out of the Navy shortly thereafter, got some professional help, and turned his life around. I hope it stayed that way, but you lose touch with people over time.
3/21/2012 6:55 PM
The 21st Sailor will do like he has always done, he will adapt and overcome and the new standard will be placed there. Don't underestimate the resiliency of today's sailor, he will do just fine. Every now and then change out the muslin bags and clean the strainer and what we have left will be a strong Navy. There will be people chiming in on how it was better when they were in 20 years from now.
3/22/2012 3:54 AM
1 stars out.... no 1120's? Why? anyone know anything??
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2012/03/navy-flag-assignments-nominations-announced-032112w/
3/22/2012 5:36 AM
None worthy
3/22/2012 5:43 AM
Because that's not the Active Line one-star list - you can tell by the jobs (supply, facilities, medicine, etc). But it should mean the Active Line list is getting close!
IMMEDIATE RELEASE No. 197-12
March 21, 2012
________________________________
Flag Officer Announcements
Secretary of Defense Leon E. Panetta announced today that the President has made the following nominations:
Navy Capt. Douglas G. Morton has been nominated for appointment to the rank of rear admiral (lower half). Morton is currently serving as chief of staff to the commander, Naval Facilities Engineering Command, Washington, D.C.
Navy Capt. Terry J. Moulton has been nominated for appointment to the rank of rear admiral (lower half). Moulton is currently serving as executive assistant to the surgeon general of the Navy, Bureau of Medicine and Surgery, Washington, D.C.
Navy Capt. David R. Pimpo has been nominated for appointment to the rank of rear admiral (lower half). Pimpo is currently serving as deputy commander for fleet logistics operations, Naval Supply Systems Command, Mechanicsburg, Pa.
Navy Capt. Donald L. Singleton has been nominated for appointment to the rank of rear admiral (lower half). Singleton is currently serving as chief of staff, Naval Supply Systems Command, Mechanicsburg, Pa.
3/22/2012 6:38 AM
What 1120's made it? I heard there was reconsidering going on? Who did not make it that is now being reconsidered? Thoughts?
3/22/2012 7:39 AM
He that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
- Jesus Christ
3/22/2012 12:05 PM
"...for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."
-- Jesus Christ [Matthew 26:52]
(For real. Just sayin'.)
-- The One
3/22/2012 1:09 PM
Life is Like A Box of Chocolates
FORREST..... FORREST GUMP
3/22/2012 1:59 PM
"I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floating around accidental-like on a breeze, but I, I think maybe it's both. Maybe both is happening at the same time."
FORREST..... FORREST GUMP
3/22/2012 2:25 PM
"Jesus H. Christ! This is a new company record. If it wouldn't be a waste of such a damn fine enlisted man, I'd recommend you for OCS, Private Gump! You are gonna be a general someday, Gump! Now, disassemble your weapon and continue!"
-- Drill Sergeant
3/22/2012 2:34 PM
Speaking of harsh punishments for poorly timed drunkeness.
Now, that's an ARI.
3/22/2012 4:08 PM
He that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
- Jesus Christ [Luke 22:36]
Feel free to look it up. Just sayin'.
3/22/2012 5:11 PM
"...He that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
For I tell you that this scripture must be fulfilled in me, namely, 'He was counted among the widked;' and indeed what is written about me is coming to fulfillment." [Luke 22:36-37]
...
"...Lord, shall we strike with a sword? And one of them struck the high priest's servant and cut off his right ear. But Jesus said in reply, "Stop, nomore of this!" Then he touched hte servant's ear and healed him." [Luke 22:49-51]
A little context goes a long way.
Just sayin'.
-- The One
3/22/2012 5:58 PM
"Fairy tales to comfort those who cannot think for themselves"....Me
3/22/2012 7:23 PM
“Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.”
-John Wayne
3/23/2012 5:25 AM
"Shut up. Just shut up. You had me at hello."
Just sayin'.
-- The One
3/23/2012 5:39 AM
To ANON ".....pullin down $250K...." Post your W-2, with SSN and last name blacked out, until then STFU! now go take some logs.
3/23/2012 7:46 AM
If all the previous methods to prevent ARI’s had worked, including senior leadership towing the line, then we wouldn’t need these draconian measures. Do you really think Big Navy wants to micro manage every aspect of your life? Do you bitch about taking a wiz quiz? I never took drugs but had to pee in a cup to prove it, was I insulted? No did I care no? It just comes with the territory. If you think the Navy’s rules are too intrusive get out.
3/23/2012 8:03 AM
"Some men can live up to their loftiest ideals without ever going higher than a basement."
-- Theodore Roosevelt
3/23/2012 8:20 AM
So, the MCPON is retiring this year, with some new eligibility rules for potential reliefs. I wonder who the next line-toeing, slick-talking politician will wear the badge next?
3/23/2012 8:23 AM
So, the MCPON is retiring this year, with some new eligibility rules for potential reliefs. I wonder who the next line-toeing, slick-talking politician will wear the badge next?
3/23/2012 8:23 AM
I am taking your bull shit comment as derogatory. Rick West did more for this Navy in his tenure than you will ever know. If your the standard holder for MCPON's you tell me who you would pick next. Or should it be you?
3/23/2012 2:05 PM
Such as? Let me guess:
3/23/2012 2:08 PM
...nope, still nothing...
3/23/2012 2:09 PM
" I wonder who the next line-toeing, slick-talking politician will wear the badge next?"
3/23/2012 8:23 AM
Slick talking? That man testifies before Congress at a moments notice, flys around the world to field questions from the sailors under his watch, gets down in the field and does what they do. Slick talking? You should be humbled in that mans presence and be thankful Rick West was there when we called. I hope we find someone who can carry on what the MCPON started. Don't reply there nothing for you to say, unless its an apology to those who serve.
3/23/2012 2:11 PM
Nobody testifies before Congress "at a moment's notice", unless your definition includes "has days or weeks to prepare and a dedicated staff to gather information."
3/23/2012 3:09 PM
Maybe a PON would be more important to have than any khaki- not trying to be derogatory, but why not try for a better deckplate perspective?
So- E5 or E6, 5-15 years service after reaching the Fleet (some seatime but minimize excess TIR) and won't be eligible for Chief board until tour is over.
3/23/2012 3:37 PM
Greatr!
3/23/2012 4:19 PM
I'm the anon with the unpopular opinion. Let me be more specific with my viewpoint. Yes, MCPON does a great deal of travel and talks to a large number of sailors on a daily basis. I find him to be a very outgoing and charismatic guy. He really is likeable. But at the end of the day, answer me this one question: Is the Navy better off today than they were three years ago when he took over? An hour browsing through this very blog would lead one to believe that much of the force is unhappy with a great deal of recent initiatives. Does the MCPON have a say in programs such as the Senior Enlisted Continuation Board, ERB, the debacle known as PTS, women on subs, mandatory breathalyzers, etc?? Absolutely. So I'm not sure why I'm supposed to be so impressed with the job he's done. He has a Facebook page so we can see him PT with sailors in San Diego, good on him. That doesn't help a lot of people.
My politician reference honestly has more to do with the potential successor. By limiting the candidate pool to CMDCM's working for a 3 star or greater, you're automatically selecting from a group of people that are on at least their 4th CMC tour, in most cases. This translates to somebody who hasn't been, I don't know, ON A SHIP in probably 10 years. How in touch do you think he/she will be when it comes to issues affecting ET2 Timmy's quality of life?
Again, Rick West: great guy. But you can't convince me he's been effective in his role. I'm willing to bet that with the specific criteria in place, the next one will be even less so.
3/23/2012 5:11 PM
I think you miss the point that the MCPON is supposed to be the slick mouthpiece for the Navy. You want some anti-social mouth breather as your top enlisted leader? The MCPON acts just like the Chief Brand Officer of a company. So yes I like seeing pictures of the MCPON doing PT with the troops, and staged QTRS on the pier sessions. Yes it’s cheesy, but no less so than change of command when the brass says “It’s not me you should thanking it’s the crew, that’s what makes this warship run.” Awwww, if that was the case then why doesn’t the CO give everyone an award and a day off? What do you expect the MCPON to do, go into the CNO and say F-you the deckplates don’t want your changes. Tell you what why don’t you go to the CEO of your company and tell them that you hate (insert crap idea here) and to go pack sand. Tell me how that works for ya jerkey.
3/23/2012 8:41 PM
No, I think YOU miss the point: the MCPON is SUPPOSED to be the representative of the enlisted sailor, and provide appropriate feedback to the CNO on what is, and what is not, fair and beneficial to the Navy's enlisted ranks.
The fact that you judge his body of work as the MCPON based on how well he hobnobs for the cameras saddened me.
Tell the CNO when a policy or idea is fucked up? Since you ask, yes, I would ABSO FUCKING LUTELY expect the Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy to do just that. That's his goddamn job.
3/23/2012 9:16 PM
The MCPON is supposed to be a leader of enlisted sailors, not a fucking mascot
3/23/2012 9:20 PM
3/23/2012 9:20 PM
You are an idiot!
3/24/2012 3:40 AM
Sounds like new blog material?
3/24/2012 3:57 AM
It's human nature to knock something you will never be. Yes the ring-knocker was correct, if you base everything on the past, I should blame Rick West on the economy. He should have straightened out the Obama administration and kept gas prices in check.
The advisor to the CNO is just that, advising. We will never know what insanity would have went into place if we did not have a voice of reason for the enlisted. The MCPON can never win with the ring-knockers and soothe-sayers, Terry Scott never visited anyone and he just developed insane policy, Joe Campa spent his tenure righting the Terry Scott era. Rick West answered the call of a visible MCPON who spoke to the enlisted. But I guess he is fake for doing that, he should stay in DC and stop the insanity. If at all possible insert position at the bottom of your blog so your experience and intelligence on Naval matters can bet validated.
Serving CMC in the Pacific Northwest!
3/24/2012 4:08 AM
Rick West answered the call of a visible MCPON who spoke to the enlisted.
There is a significant difference between speaking to the enlisted and speaking for the enlisted. You might as well have said, "Uh, uh just imagine how bad it could have been." Wait, that is what you said.
Spoken like a true khaki-pants.Here's an idea: Grow a pair!
3/24/2012 8:29 AM
Rick west was a clown. I lost all respect for him over two things.
1) a stupid article where he talked about magic in the air of working out with other sailors in our gay ass pt uniform
2) when he broke the promise of lesser restrictions on the new NWU.
That second one was probably the single most important part of the NWU to the everyday sailor. Big Navy has backed off some, but were still more constrained than other branches... And that uniform is pricy!(also stupid-looking)
3/24/2012 8:35 AM
Joe Campa was THE Sailor's Advocate as MCPON. Of course, he got 'short toured.' Coincidence?
Under the revised eligibility criteria, he would not have been eligible, MCPON-11 for selection, as JTF Gitmo is not a 3 or 4 Star.
Can a strong proponent for Sailors also be a 'mouthpiece' for the CNO, especially one that remains as MCPON for years and years and years?
The only evidence would be a list of 'Ideas' the MCPON proposed which were shot down.
I don't suppose we'll ever know.
3/24/2012 8:54 AM
"Serving CMC in the Pacific Northwest!"
Now there is a bunch of corrupt people. The Master Chief's in the PNW are considered the "Mafia" of the Navy and for good reason. Unfortunately, this is well known both by fellow enlisted Sailors and the Officer Corps.
Former serving CMC in the PNW.
3/24/2012 9:08 AM
"Serving CMC in the Pacific Northwest!"
Really??? You are actually proud to say that?? What a Fu*kin Joke! You and your corrupt bunch of clowns in the CMC "Mess" up there.
Crawl back into your hole and learn to be a Chief before you critize the MCPON.
3/24/2012 9:16 AM
The Master Chief's in the PNW are considered the "Mafia" of the Navy...
These are the guys that trained and selected Turley.
Maybe it's time to disperse all the E-8's and above up there.
3/24/2012 10:55 AM
What? break up and forced distribution of the "Bangor Boomer Bunnies" to the real fleet - they may have to actually work for a change!!!
GREAT IDEA!!!
Force them to work or force them OUT!
3/24/2012 11:35 AM
What? break up and forced distribution of the "Bangor Boomer Bunnies" to the real fleet - they may have to actually work for a change!!!
3/24/2012 11:35 AM
ReaL Fleet, what are you in the Russian Navy? The reason why you can float around in your miniature Subs down in Pearl is because we defend freedom 24/7 with deterrence up in the PNW!!!!. Don't be Jealous. When your done with the JV and passed over for MCPON come see me I have some FSA duty for you.
Serving COB PNW!
3/24/2012 12:55 PM
The Master Chief's in the PNW are considered the "Mafia" of the Navy.
That's Bull shit, we own that moniker up here in Groton. Take a look at the rotations. COB-SQD-COB-NSSF-COB-Base.
Never going to be a COB, SCPO!
3/24/2012 1:02 PM
The reason why you can float around in your miniature Subs down in Pearl is because we defend freedom 24/7 with deterrence up in the PNW!!!!
Spoken like a true boomer fag.
3/24/2012 1:48 PM
"If at all possible insert position at the bottom of your blog so your experience and intelligence on Naval matters can bet validated.
Serving CMC in the Pacific Northwest!
Holy. Fuckballs. Did that really just happen?? Is somebody playing a sick joke on us? Is Dirty Dave reporting as ordered?
I've spent a lot of time in Bangor, and met a lot of truly great submariners. I have enjoyed my time and experience here. But I can count on one hand the number of Bangor CMC's that I have any professional respect for whatsoever. Rusty Staub is one, hopefully he can use whatever influence he has at CSG9 to make positive change here. But I fear he's outnumbered by self-serving assholes.
3/24/2012 2:00 PM
I just wanted to say thanks for those brave men and women who provide the umbrella of strategic securty. Every time you go to sea and stand the watch I snuggle up to a boomer widow and perfom mode 7 checks on my TLAM!
3/24/2012 6:16 PM
Rusty Staub is one.
Does Rusty know he is the only CMC worth a damn up here? Sounds like some well deserved off time if Rusty is going to run the whole show.
What the fuck ever!!!!
3/24/2012 7:41 PM
I'm from bangor and I resent those hurtful words. I respect all prospective female submariners. I like taking long stroll in MCUL with my girl and when I return to port, its the great travel time the Navy affords me on my government credit card. Thanks Boys for covering my ass and making me a CMC, hope I have not let you down. Still wwaiting for my trasnfer to Pearl so I dont have to put up with rules.
DD
3/24/2012 7:44 PM
I've spent a lot of time in Bangor, and met a lot of truly great submariners.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
I pissed myself.
Pearl CPO and soon to be COB!
3/24/2012 9:09 PM
Bangor does not have a monopoly on homesteaders, that is for certain. The vast majority of Kings bay Chiefs don't want to leave their swamp, and most in Norfolk are similar. San Diego Chiefs seem to understand that there just aren't that many shore jobs or boats there so moving is likely. Guys who want to homestead in our other ports also exist, but not to the same degree as Kbay or Bangor.
But the twinstar mafia in Bangor more than any other homeport will lie, cheat, and steal to get what they want. They will give stories and excuses, then change both when the current versions fail to get them what they want, whether it is IAW policy or not is immaterial. How Turley was handled from the beginning until the ugly end is but one example. I have seen them walk over new Chiefs without batting an eye, indirectly training those poor doormats how to treat their future brothers in the years to come. I loved the 5 years I spent there as a blue shirt, but I'm very glad I put anchors on and learned about the Mess elsewhere.
3/25/2012 12:33 AM
"But the twinstar mafia in Bangor more than any other homeport will lie, cheat, and steal to get what they want."
There will always be bad apples that didn't get their precious way, that will discount what goes on in Bangor. Good Leadership comes with a price, sometimes the weak are just not cut out to be good leaders. DD was a person who abused his leadership. He is not the face of the PNW. Just because a few E-7's pop off about the so called mafia does not make it true. If your not willing and have the ability to lead, we send you packing. There are no jobs here for the feeble minded leader-wanna-be's. My counsel to the above comments. If what the Master Chiefs are doing bothers you, stand up with a pair and tell one of us. If you learned anything on induction night you would have the guts and nads to step up to the plate. Don't cry to people outside the community like a little girl and then expect someone to feel sorry for you. I know who you are, because the weak stand out. Sitting on the porch telling your grand children you could have been a leader, but some Master Chief held you back is bull shit. But thats what you will do. As for the E-6 and a half who was a E-6 here, never forget where you came from, we made you, you owe us.
3/25/2012 6:08 AM
"Pearl CPO and soon to be COB!"
That's a load of crap, name the last time you heard of a decent COB coming out of Pearl.
3/25/2012 7:56 AM
Let's check the math, Dave Lynch came from Groton, Manny Meneses came from Groton, Bob Shannon came out of Groton, We have our iconic COBs up here. Bob Bentley, Al Atkinson, Tommy Vatter, Glen Kline, and Kevin Cristman! Looks like somebody needs a hug!
3/25/2012 8:00 AM
Not sure what your point is, but don't forget that Tommy Vatter made his mark out in Pearl before he went to Groton. Three tours in Pearl boats before an outstanding COB tour on LOUISVILLE (also Pearl), before he was COB on VIRGINIA.
3/25/2012 9:08 AM
I agree about Vatter. I think the point is that Pearl, Groton, Norfolk, and San Diego all make Great COBs (with a few exceptions of course).
Note that Bangor and K-Bay are not on this list - that's the POINT! The Messes in both places are so inbred (stayed there too long) that they continually perpetuate their corrupt spineless excuse for leadership on the fleet.
3/25/2012 11:34 AM
Looks like we hit a nerve with the PNW bubbas!
3/25/2012 2:13 PM
Note that Bangor and K-Bay are not on this list - that's the POINT! The Messes in both places are so inbred (stayed there too long) that they continually perpetuate their corrupt spineless excuse for leadership on the fleet.
You might want to check the books again and look at your own backyard and see where your CMC's originated! Then you can STFU!
3/25/2012 5:10 PM
Yeah, Thom Metcalf. COB and CMC of the Century!
3/25/2012 5:12 PM
Once DD departs the PNW, things will be back to normal.
3/25/2012 5:19 PM
Lets see, we started this out talking about 21st Sailor and the breathalyzer. We moved to the MCPON because he announced his upcoming retirement. Some how we got into a pissing contest about why and how Bangor has a 2 star mafia. We alll can agree on one thing, its time for a new topic.
And stop beating the PNW down, they have enough troubles on their own.
Point Loma bound!
3/25/2012 5:26 PM
Note that Bangor and K-Bay are not on this list.
What list? Theres a list.
Brac?
3/25/2012 5:28 PM
Looks like we hit a nerve with the PNW bubbas!
You hit plenty of nerves. I get tired of hearing how Groton and Pearl produce these great fast attack tough COBs that are the backbone of the submarine force. If you want to look for the mafia, look no further than the ring kissing CPO club here in Groton. If I want to be a COB I will have to leave this area, because I don't sit and kiss the rings and drink with the relics at the Chief's Club! No one here gets the opportunity to be a COB. These Old ass clowns keep rotating back and forth. And when they do rotate out of a sea going billet they hide them at sub school until they retire or get into financial debt and need to go back to sea. Wiat till the 688's are gone then maybe the new generation will have the chance. Check the books, there is a lot of homesteading up here too.
3/26/2012 3:38 AM
Wow, didn't know that about Groton. Why? I couldn't wait to leave after sub school and never been back since 1983.
Here in the PNW we just have child porn Master Chiefs.
3/26/2012 3:59 AM
You meant to say "PNW Bubbettes"! If you hit their nerve, it's probably just their PMS.
BTW, they have the entire offcrew time period to get over it. Over half will not even see a submarine this morning, much less this month.
Tough part time COB job and they still struggle.
3/26/2012 4:08 AM
Check the books, there is a lot of homesteading up here too.
Don't talk about issues here in Groton unless you have some valid experience and some sea time. No one in Groton started shit talking. This blog had nothing to do with Groton. So unless you want to grow some and post your name. STFU! Leave Groton out of it. We are who we are, we do what we do. Obviously someone outside the family has an issue, but he isn't man enough to face the area leadership. STFU or GTFO!
3/26/2012 5:13 AM
I left the Navy for a lot of personal reasons, none of which had to do with senior enlisted leadership.
I guess I was just blind. Given the (apparently widespread) bitterness that's been laid bare here, senior enlisted leaders are exactly the reason I should be glad I left.
This thread is an indictment on the modern submarine chief culture. You all suck. Grow the fuck up and go make things better for the crew instead of for yourselves (or "the mess," which, come to think of it, suddenly seems like an entirely appropriate moniker.)
This thread is making me more depressed than the NUWC/contractor bloodletting we had here a couple months ago.
3/26/2012 7:20 AM
2nd Smartest move in my life: Going "mustang" from the stripes to the Officer Corps.
Smartest Move in my life: Resigning my commission.
Damn I'm glad that I left. Each and every day. The force today is just a sad joke that is not worth its upkeep. If regular breathalyzers are going to be imposed....start with the Admirals in DC.
3/26/2012 7:54 AM
Now, Now Ladies... Quit fighting and just hug already would ya. Geez
3/26/2012 1:39 PM
Most enlisted think they are above the rules when they attain the rank of E-9 or CMC. Here lately we have a few instances where the Khaki Leadership has thought they had the power to make decisions that were never theirs to begin with. That's the E-9's Big Navy needs to reel in. If the Master Chiefs realize where they stand in the pecking order and just take care of the junior enlisted, the Navy will be better off. We will see. It will not be long before another COB or CMC makes the news. The going rate is about 30-45 days.The MCPON has his hands full with these E-9s.
3/26/2012 3:01 PM
Anon at
3/26/2012 3:01 PM
Obviously you are detached from reality and an idiot! Master Chiefs(not E-9s) are the backbone of the Navy! We eat, breathe and bleed Navy blue. For you to say anything about something you know nothing about; makes me believe I am talking to an officer who was not properly trained at the JO level by a Chief Petty Officer. I do not know what rank you perceive yourself to be(don't care), but I earned my Anchors and I earned each subsequent star that went with it. You can knock specific instances and people here in this blog, but for you to attack a group of sailors that have proven their worth and longevity is a travesty. It solidifies what I have always thought; great Admirals will tell you the name of their first Chief Petty Officer that made an impact on their careers. Career Commanders will tell how great they were at leading Chief Petty Officers. Maybe you can lay in your bed at night and tell youself stories about your career; but don't knock the community who is still defending the ground you walk on and providing the very blanket of freedom you use to cover yourself at night.
Proud MCPO PNW
3/26/2012 6:51 PM
Proud PNW MC: As a not-so-long ago retired MC, I can attest to the concerns voiced by your colleagues. I hate to say it, but the Mess is a mess. Rather than engage in the ad hominem attacks, I'll just leave it at this: The Navy is a better organization now that I am no longer a part of it. It will be better still when ALL MCs are forced back to sea between shore billets. And being at sea means being the COB of a SSN/SSGN/SSBN, not an at sea "equivalent" billet. This applies to squadron/group/force/fleet CMCs also, including those (you know who you are) at the NPTUs and other associated organizations who have been filling the same billet(s) for 5 or 6 years in some cases.
3/26/2012 10:25 PM
Proud MCPO PNW,
Perhaps if you had a little more pride, Dirty Dave would never have gotten to the point he did. Hate to say it, but yes, there IS a significant difference between a Master Chief and an E-9. Sadly, there are far too few of the former, and far too many of the latter.
I've seen too many in the CPO Quarters (both on submarine and shore billets) who while they talked a good game of, "Honor, Courage, and Commitment" barely got the words our before laughing their balls off.
Physician (or Chief), heal thyself.
3/27/2012 2:06 AM
Proud MCPO PNW says: “Shipmates, we live in a world that has oceans. And those oceans have to be guarded by men in submarines. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. FNG? As a PNW MCPO I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for the poor blue shirts and you curse the Master Chief Mafia. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that booting that MIDI split-tail that DD hit, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at the Horse and Cow, you want me on that submarine. You need me on that submarine. We use words like honor, courage, commitment...we use these words in front of blue shirts as proof that we have a backbone to prove that our many hours away from our family for our entire life was spent defending something. We use 'em as a punchline while banging MIDI’s underway and swapping stories of drunk driving feats. I have neither the time nor the brainpower to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said F-U E-9! and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a RPM and stand a watch. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!”
AEIOU SS/SW/DV/FMF PNW,NNSY,NSSF,PH,KB,SD,NLSB Class A DB!
3/27/2012 1:28 PM
^^^ He gets it!
3/27/2012 8:18 PM
Proud MCPO PNW says: "Shipmates, ....Uhh, as usual, I've been spending way too much time in the goat locker, watching movies and memorizing lines, instead of leading my sailors and supporting the Command"
But try to ignore that and tell me that I'm funny, 'cause I'm just a useless bag o'dung.
3/28/2012 4:50 AM
I want to know why the leadership wants any drunks on board a nuclear sub? I just had a run-in with a MTSN who got drunk enough that he can't seem to remember if he had consensual sex or raped a girl-says he was "too drunk". Heck, if you got a drunk AND a possible rapist who "blacks out"? Oh, and I imagine he doesn't remember hitting on the girl a few days later while drunk as a skunk either? So, he's accused of rape and get a little slap on the hand at NJP. What's our Navy coming to?
7/03/2012 9:54 AM
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