Keeping the blogosphere posted on the goings on of the world of submarines since late 2004... and mocking and belittling general foolishness wherever it may be found. Idaho's first and foremost submarine blog. (If you don't like something on this blog, please E-mail me; don't call me at home.)

Sunday, November 06, 2005

Non-Submariner On "Women On Subs"

Via The Military Outpost, a new milblog put together by LT and Mrs. Smash, I found a post by legibletrout discussing the always popular topic of women on submarines:

"I have had a number of submariner friends, and they are a different breed, no doubt. Six months underway, underwater, with minimal exposure to the rest of the interesting dynamic for a male/female crew. Wonder how some wives and husbands would feel about their spouse being a member of such a crew. Everyone says they would trust their spouse, but six months without a phone call, and maybe only an occasional email? Half a year submerged, closer quarters than anyone back home can imagine?"

Now, submarines do actually pull in for port visits during those six months, so we're not that different from surface ships in that regard. The biggest problem I see is that either you'd have men and women in much closer quarters that you do on surface ships, or you'd end up with empty racks in the "female only" berthing areas when people stay behind... not very good for morale when most of the crew is hot-racking. Plus, which head becomes the female head? And do you need to install an extra head in the goat locker and wardroom areas? Or just have a sign you put up depending on the gender of the occupant? (That's what we did when we had female riders -- except for middie ops, when boats will turn one head over to them for the night.)

Plus, we all know what "feminine products" would do to the san pump...

Going deep...


Blogger D.P. Guettler said...

Uh, Bubbles - ask Gman about women on subs. He's got some amusing stories.

11/06/2005 12:24 PM

Blogger ninme said...

Tell me more about these heads. Because, Peter and I frequently use the same bathroom, as do, presumably, you, your wife, and your three children, at different times of the day. So why would that be a problem? Unless you guys all pee in troughs like in shoddy public restrooms.

The berthing thing would be a problem (there is the biggest pun there, but I'll leave it alone) but boys 'n girls could sleep in the same room together, if there was a little changing-closet available to get into a girl's jammies in.

As for the feminine products (and the berthing would-be pun) you could just put the girls all on Depo. Problem solved!

11/06/2005 6:57 PM

Anonymous subcomunic8r said...

Well ninme, on a Los Angeles class submarine there are 4 toilets and 3 shower stalls for about 110-120 E-6 and below. One toilet and one shower for 12-14 Chiefs. One for around 10-14 officers. And the Co and XO share a toilet and shower. Just a tad more crowded than your average household.
A little changing closet? To serve how many females? Nevermind that there isn't any room for such a "luxury". Privacy is at a premium on a submarine.
If the Navy could make women take Depo or Norplant, they probably would have long ago to cut down on pregnancies while women were at sea going commands.

11/06/2005 8:24 PM

Blogger MT1(SS) said...

So you're advocating a mandatory birth-control device to be used on women who may have a religious opposition to its use?

Sure, it's great idea, but in reality it kinda goes against that whole "life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness" ideal that we're subject to.

The problem, when you get down to nuts and bolts, is American culture. Our culture prevents women from serving on submarines because, as a culture, we are prudes. The thought of mixed sexes in the same berthing facilities doesn't sit well with John and Jane Q. Public.

As far as the heads, we're not talking about 5 people sharing one bathroom. We're talking about, best case, 140 blue-shirts sharing 6 stalls, 6 sinks, and 4 showers. That's about equivalent to 35 people sharing the 1.5 bathrooms in the average American house.

What size would you propose the "little changing-closet" to be? On the comparitive hotel that is the Ohio-class submarine, there is about 40 square feet in which 9 sailors bunk.

"Fire in the Engine Room!" the 1MC yells... are we then waiting for women to change out of the aforementioned jammies to go fight a fire?

Women on submarines is an issue that will never be fully resolved until our society changes its views.

11/06/2005 8:33 PM

Anonymous chrys said...

Too serious to be funny. It was bad enough being one of only two women in a 269 person unit on DRY LAND. It's unthinkable to even imagine the "head" problem! Unfortunately - the more like everyone - all members are - the better the mission will proceed. It was interesting watching a die hard "Top" who hated women and wouldn't allow them in unit parades end up putting a lock on a door (no flip sign) for me so that I didn't have to wait till they all came back from where ever to use the restroom or figure out how to make it to the third floor (woman's floor). Just gets silly and everyone has to change their lives - lives already stressed with conditions. HEY - let's make it MORE confusing!!

11/06/2005 9:11 PM

Blogger ninme said...

Oh you people are NO fun.

So I guess from what you're saying, the bathrooms are sort of dorm-style? Not one-at-a-time style?

But just think of the reaction of anyone who thinks it would be really swell to have girls around after being locked up with a bunch of them on Depo for six months! Hilarious!

11/06/2005 11:36 PM

Blogger drunknsubmrnr said...

Showers? SHOWERS?! Oooohhh, you people had it SOFT!

Real submariners (ie DBF'ers) get a sponge bath. Once a week, and only if they really need it.

11/07/2005 8:28 AM

Blogger D.P. Guettler said...

I went to sea with 21 female Naval Academy cadets for about 14 hours. "OH MY GOD". I will tell you about it in the middle of the week when I am off for a couple days. Got to sleep now. Work 13 hour days. Bottom line, women and men cannot coexist on subs. It's either got to be a entire male staffed sub or entire female staffed sub. The problems with having both sexes on board are huge.

11/07/2005 10:21 AM

Blogger A.A.G. said...

Thats my subbie!

11/07/2005 3:14 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Program on the emergence of civilization.

"14 species of large animals capable of domesitcation in the history of mankind.
13 from Europe, Asia and northern Africa.
None from the sub-Saharan African continent. "
And disfavor.

They point out Africans’ failed attempts to domesticate the elephant and zebra, the latter being an animal they illustrate that had utmost importance for it's applicability in transformation from a hunting/gathering to agrarian-based civilization.

The roots of racism are not of this earth.

Austrailia, aboriginals:::No domesticable animals.

The North American continent had none. Now 99% of that population is gone.

AIDS in Africa.

Organizational Heirarchy
Heirarchical order, from top to bottom:

1. MUCK - perhaps have experienced multiple universal contractions (have seen multiple big bangs), creator of the artificial intelligence humans ignorantly refer to as "god"
2. Perhaps some mid-level alien management
3. Evil/disfavored aliens - runs day-to-day operations here and perhaps elsewhere

Terrestrial management:

4. Chinese/egyptians - this may be separated into the eastern and western worlds
5. Romans - they answer to the egyptians
6. Mafia - the real-world interface that constantly turns over generationally so as to reinforce the widely-held notion of mortality
7. Jews, corporation, women, politician - Evidence exisits to suggest mafia management over all these groups.

Movies foreshadowing catastrophy
1985 James Bond View to a Kill 1989 San Francisco Loma Prieta earthquake.

Many Muslims are being used like the Germans and Japanese of WWII::being used to hurt others and envoke condemnation upon their people.

They can affect the weather and Hurricane Katrina was accomplished for many reasons and involves many interests, as anything this historical is::
1. Take heat off Sheenhan/Iraq, protecting profitable war machine/private war contracts
2. Gentrification. New Orleans median home price of $84k is among the lowest in major American cities, certainly among desirable cities.

Our society gives clues to the system in place. We all have heard the saying "He has more money than god." There is also an episode of the Simpsons where god meets Homer and says "I'm too old and rich for this."

This is the system on earth because this is the system everywhere.
god is evil because of money.

I don't want to suggest the upper eschelons are evil and good is the fringe.

But they have made it abundantly clear that doing business with evil (disfavored) won't help people. They say only good would have the ear, since evil is struggling for survival, and therefore only the favored could help me.

The clues are there which companies are favored and which are disfavored, market domination being one clue, but they conceal it very hard because it is so crucial.

I offer an example of historical proportions:::

People point to Walmart and cry "anti-union".
Unions enable disfavored people to live satisfactorly without addressing their disfavor. This way their family's problems are never resolved. Without the union they would have to accept the heirarchy, their own inferiority.
Unions serve to empower.
Walmart is anti-union because they are good. They try to help people address and resolve their problems by creating an enviornment where there are fewer hurdles.

Media ridicule and lawsuits are creations to reinforce people's belief that Walmart is evil.
Low-cost disfavored Chinese labor is utilized by corporate america to maximize margins. They all do it. Only WalMart gets fingered because they are the ones who help, and those who seek to create confusion in the marketplace want to eliminate the vast middle class who have a real chance and instead stick with a lower classes who may not work otherwise. So they dirty him up while allowing the others to appear clean.

The middle class is being deceived. They are being misled into the unfavored, and subsequently will have no assistance from their purchases with corporate america.

I believe the coining of the term "Uncle Sam" was a clue alluding to just this::Sam Walton and WalMart is one of few saviors of the peasant class.

Amercia is a country of castoffs, rejects. Italy sent its criminals. Malcontents.
Between the thrones, the klans and kindred, they "decided" who they didn't want and acted, creating discontent and/or starvation.
The u.s. is full of disfavored rejects. It is the reason for the myriad of problems not found in European countries. As far as the Rockafellers and other industrialists of the 19th century go, I suspect these aren't their real names. I suspect they were chosen to go and head this new empire.

Royalty is the right way to organize a society. Dictatorships and monarchies are a reflection of the antient's hierarchical organization.
Positions go to those who have favor with the rulers, as opposed to being elected.
Elections bring a false sense of how the world is. Democracy misleads people.
Which is why the disfavored rejects were sent to the shores of America::To keep them on the wrong path.

Jesus Christ is a religious figure of evil. These seperatist churches formed so they could still capture the rest of the white people, keeping them worshipping the wrong god.
And now they do it to people of color, Latinos and Asians, after centuries of preying upon them.

Since Buddism doesn't recongnize a god, the calls are never heard, and Chinese representation is instead selected by the thrones.
It was set up this way. Perhaps dyanstic thrones had a say, but maybe not.
Budda was the Asian's Jesus Christ::: bad for the people. "They came up at the same time for a reason."

Simpson's foreshadowing::Helloween IV special, Flanders is Satan. "Last one you ever suspect."
"You'll see lots of nuns where you're going:::hell!!!" St. Wigham, Helloween VI, missionary work, destroying cultures.
Over and over, the Simpsons was a source of education and enlightenment, a target of ridicule by the system which wishes to conceal its secrets.

Jews maim the body formed in the image of "god", and inflicted circumsision upon all other white people, as well as the evil that is Jesus Christ.
I think about how Jews (were used to) created homosexuality among Slavics, retribution for the Holocaust.
Then I think of the Catholic Church and its troubles.
What connection is here between Jews and the Catholic church???
And if it is their sinister motives that’s behind the evil that is Jesus Christ are they being used at all?
Perhaps it is them who are pulling strings.

I believe Islam is the one true religion, and those misled christians who attack "god's" most favored people will pay for it dearly one day.

11/13/2005 2:57 PM

Blogger Bubblehead said...

Uh... OK.

11/17/2005 12:19 AM


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