This Is Getting Old...
Let's see what submarine-related news has hit the wires in the last few days. Well, on some official Navy websites, we see that USS Missouri (SSN 780) had a change of command, PCU Mississippi (SSN 782) is on track for commissioning this summer after successfully completing Alpha and Bravo Trials, and... wait for it... another COB just got detached for cause:
The Chief of the Boat for the Los Angeles-class attack submarine USS Annapolis (SSN 760) was relieved of his duties April 19 by Cmdr. John Gearhart, commanding officer, USS Annapolis, due to allegations of alcohol-related misconduct while on liberty overseas.Who had "20 days" in the "how long will it be until the next submarine senior leader gets fired" pool? And on a deployed SSN, no less? I don't know any specifics about this case, but it does seem, just based on anecdotal evidence, that the Navy seems to be pulling the trigger a lot faster when any allegations of misconduct come up. (In this case, the official word is that the CO is the one who made the call, and I have no reason to doubt that's the case. I'm assuming he got permission from Groton before he processed the paperwork, though.) Back in the day, I frequently heard the probably apocryphal canard that a new CO was generally granted one "free pass" in firing an officer or Chief before squadron started sniffing around the boat more intently. I wonder if the same rule applied to Squadrons and the CO/XO/COBs of the boats they run? Or if they now just assume that if they don't fire one, Big Navy starts to wonder what's wrong?
There is an ongoing investigation into the alleged misconduct, which occurred while Senior Chief Sonar Technician Submarines (SS) Gregory Cordray was Chief of the Boat for USS Annapolis. The investigation is being conducted by Submarine Development Squadron 12.
USS Annapolis is currently forward deployed in support of combatant commander tasking.
Cordray has been temporarily assigned to Submarine Development Squadron 12 in Groton.
Master Chief Electronics Technician (SS) Ed Durrua will temporarily assume the duties as Chief of the Boat for USS Annapolis. Prior to his new assignment Durrua, was assigned to USS Miami (SSN 755).
posted by Bubblehead at 10:09 PM
176 Comments:
This comment has been removed by the author.
4/22/2012 6:59 AM
There have been six major and at least 12 minor extinction events during the past 650 million years of the Earth’s history.
The
dinosaurs died out at the end of the Cretaceous period but mammals and the ancestors of modern birds survived. Perhaps they had the characteristics that suited them to the new environment.
Mammals are able to maintain their body temperature. They are less dependent on environmental temperatures.
4/22/2012 7:02 AM
Men are no Longer wanted on the Boats.... Have a few brews smack a broads ass and get the boot!!
Pump some Man Ass and get awards and advance.... Thank God John Wayne is dead,, for this would surely Kill him...... Get Out... Get Out.. Run as fast as you Can... Men are no Lonmger wanted .. They are being hunted and disposed of.........
4/22/2012 7:04 AM
There are no details in this case so we don't know if this was a one time or "the straw that broke the camel's back". The Navy certainly seems to be getting less tolerant of alcohol related incidents. On my first submarine, the entire wardroom and goat locker, along with eighty percent of the crew would have to have been fired after a foreign port visit. When I returned to WESTPAC on my second submarine, I received a personal warning from the Group Seven Staff to make sure my new boat didn't do some of the stunts that occurred on my first sub during its deployment (I was just a JO at the time). By the time I was an XO and CO, such incidents were in decline. I guess the pendulum has swung back and, since word (good or bad) travels a lot faster today due to internet, twitter, facebook, etc. big Navy is working overtime to crush the trend to the detrement of some due to the zero tolerance. If this Senior Chief has a real problem with alcohol abuse, I hope he gets the help he needs to resolve it.
4/22/2012 9:11 AM
This Senior Chief has had a long and troubled record with alcohol. Whe he left here qualified as a COB, it was under the premise, he would go elsewhere with a clean slate. If he would have stayed here, he would have received no respect. This was clearly a good ole boy hook up here when he qualified. I am surprised Groton took him back after his run and earlier ARI's there. Now maybe some of us "clean" sailors with no tie to the good ole boy network will get a chance to be a COB.
4/22/2012 10:52 AM
STSC's Cordray was a Squadron ST in Pearl before his COB tour. The Commodore approved gapping his ST billet in order for Greg to go be a COB on the 760 before finishing his normal Hawaii tour length ( 36 months). I knew Cordray had issues with booze a long while back but was not aware those had resurfaced when he was in Pearl. If so, shame on the board that gave him the go ahead to wear the cookie. Commodores seem to make it a point of honor to see how many of their divisional reps go on to be COBs regardless of how suited they might be for the job. The selection system isn't working well.
4/22/2012 11:04 AM
Anon @ 10:52
"This Senior Chief has had a long and troubled record with alcohol"
How in the world could we let this guy go and be a SEL? If someone knew he had issues, your as guilty as he is! All Chiefs took a oath to speak up when issues or problems arise. If you knew this was bad and did not voice your opinion to the certifying Master Chiefs, then the system is flawed in Pearl. How many more can we have on the cover of Navy Crimes!?This is getting ridiculous. I am glad I am retiring!
Serving CMC PACNORWEST!
4/22/2012 11:05 AM
A PNW CMC talking about flawed processes in Pearl.....
Define "irony"...
4/22/2012 11:17 AM
Dear PACNORWEST CMC:
Are you kidding me? Your group of good ole boys in Bangor are just as corrupt. I remember a couple years back when the base CMC was busted for trolling for kids on Craigslist. His "punishment"....being able to retire with full pay and benefits of an E8. Hard to top that one....
4/22/2012 11:22 AM
Bangor/Pacnorwest IS the worst. You hardly ever hear of any issues out of New London (compared to Bangor/Pacnorwest).
4/22/2012 11:58 AM
"How in the world could we let this guy go and be a SEL? If someone knew he had issues, your as guilty as he is!" Anon @ 11:05
In order to assure the success of the women in subs experiment (It's the right thing to do, after all.)
the Navy must generate statistics proving the inadequacies of male submarine leaders.
I submit there has been a political agenda here, and I can tell you when and how it started.
The Defense Department Advisory Committee on Women in the Services (DACOWITS) was established in 1951 under President Harry Truman by Secretary of Defense George C. Marshall (a Roosevelt appointee) and namesake for USS George C. Marshall (SSBN-654) commissioned in 1966. DACOWITS has loobied congress for women in combat and on submarines ever since.
Want to know more about the
unhealthy agenda?
4/22/2012 1:39 PM
Good Lord, I don't know what's worse. The random bible quotes or Vigilis' tinfoil hat theories.
At least have the dignity to stop linking to your blog. No one is going there.
4/22/2012 2:42 PM
Eph 4:29
29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
-If Jesus saves, as everyone knows, he must have one hell of a bank account after 2,000 years.
4/22/2012 4:52 PM
Someone must be going to Vigilis's link, because it is generating page views for TSSBP. Keep up the pertinent links, Vig!
Andy
4/22/2012 5:29 PM
OK, lets set the tab straight here. Greg Cordray was a Chief in Groton! In Groton. Had major issues that were covered up, he left to go to Pearl. When he got to Pearl, he had behind the scene issues that I am told were covered up, but the Commodore loved him. Who knows they may have been drinking buddies for all we know. He qualifies COB in Pearl. Three Master Chiefs, a Squadron CMC and the FORCM certifiy him to be their quality product!In Pearl! IN PEARL! Then he is shipped out to Groton, because they cannot fill their own slate over there, they are desperate and take him. He goes to Groton, I repeat GROTON! He gets up there somehow certifies the boat to go on deployment IN GROTON! The command runs rampant in theatre, he has an ARI! I am still trying to figure out where Bangor or the PACNORWEST comes into play, since everyone has an issue with us up here! Do the math, we have one issue,we had already reloved DD from the boat, Kings Bay and Groton lead the universe in serving COBs getting fired. Chris Berry qualified out of Guam, Cordray out of Pearl, John Akin out of Kings Bay? Any questions!... I thought so!
4/22/2012 6:12 PM
What is the behind the scenes story here, we can read the news paper, but whats the dirt?
4/22/2012 6:34 PM
I'll sum this one up for you with a stat from the NCIS guys I talked to on occasion, sailors in the general areas with associated crimes:
Groton - Drinking/Alchol
Norfolk - Theft/Burglary
KB - Spousal Abuse
Bangor - Depression/Suicide
Guam/HI - Drugs
Enjoy hashing that out. there are exceptions but historically troubled sailors take on a crime associated with their geographic location. must be something in the weather or water.
4/22/2012 8:28 PM
Hmm, my general feeling on this is everyone is trigger happy and they are given direction to be, but no specifics with this one. Nowadays anything from being beligerant and yelling is considered an ARI, doesnt take much.
In general PC news, every single person at my last command CAP-ed was a minority where the CO could keep Squadron off his back...undermined him with the crew though. CO's seem more geared to keeping squadron happy vice taking care of the fellas. I really dont care if thats what they actually do, just present things in a favorable light.
4/22/2012 8:32 PM
Free passes are all gone....wait til the economy picks back up, I'm sure they'll be back.
Yeah I cant wait to see how many people get fired or canned for FRI's in the future..thats female related incidents.
4/22/2012 8:35 PM
Gotta love the CO that does anything to keep the squadron off his back at the expense of the crew...except when what he does not only pisses off the crew, but also pisses off the squadron too.
And to think I was wondering why a DH I know is hoping not to screen LCDR and a bunch of enlisted guys want to get hit with an ERB get out of Navy card. Take the involuntary separation pay and run!
4/22/2012 8:45 PM
Great thing the CO did.
He has the authority to fire any member of his crew when he feels they violated his policy of responsible alcohol use.
It isn't the Squadron's job to fire a COB. That's the CO's job. His crew, his decision.
4/22/2012 9:29 PM
We are missing the point here, the COB violated his own command's alcohol and liberty policy. There were no opportunities for free passes. This was the Senior Enlisted leader of the boat showing his ass, vomiting laying in it and he paid for it. If my kid was in the Navy and on his boat, I would want more leadership than violation of their own policies. Give me a break.The COBs are supposed to be setting the example not defining the line.
4/23/2012 3:11 AM
@anon 4/23/2012 3:11 AM
Here here!!!
@vigilis...pffftthhhtt
4/23/2012 4:00 AM
Anon @ 11:05
"All Chiefs took a oath to speak up when issues or problems arise."
True but if you do speak up, you're labeled and hung out to dry.
4/23/2012 6:36 AM
Anon @ 6:12
The issue with Bangor/PNW is that it's incestuous.
4/23/2012 6:41 AM
Anon @ 6:12
The CO "...has the authority to fire any member of his crew..."
Are we now switching back? Damn it, I can't keep up with all these changes. I thought it was the
Squadron's job to fire COBs or that only for the boomers?
4/23/2012 6:55 AM
Three Questions:
1. Is there a difference based on the NECs (COB v. CMC)?
2. Does the CO have to use NJP, an LOI, or NEC removal (NPC OKay) to get rid of someone?
3. Does the ISIC have to OKay, if the CO recommends?
4/23/2012 10:39 AM
"...pffftthhhtt" - Srvd_SSN_CO
Since Vigilis did "submit" his opinion with verifiable facts, can you resist another impulse (we are trying to learn here) to comment with only a dismissive expression and share at least one countervailing fact supporting an opposite opinion?
Obviously, many readers, like myself, harbor doubts about the accuracy of your official opinion, Admiral.
4/23/2012 12:29 PM
Military pilot who had sex with an 11 year old boy when he was a 17 year-old virgin!!! A JUNIOR IN HIGH SCHOOL WHO HAD SEX WITH AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL STUDENT!!! He needs to be on a sexual preditor list.
How long did this pedophile masterbate and think about having sex with this pre-pubescent child? In boot camp? Into his flight training? 20, 25 YEARS OLD??? OLDER???
"Creepy rotten grape attached to an otherwise normal bunch."
He was never was very smart. He didn't figure out how prostitution worked until he was in the military:::
You don't want to pay someone to LET you suck HIS dick. You should have waited for the child to suck YOUR dick before you let him drive your car.
4/23/2012 1:39 PM
Did I miss something? Why is MMCM John Akin's name in this thread? In my opinion, that guy was one of the greatest CPOs to ever serve. I hope he is enjoying his transtion to retirement after his many years of selfless service.
4/23/2012 1:42 PM
^^^^^^
Someone referred to him as one of the COBs who were relieved of their duties. Why do you ask are you taking offense?
4/23/2012 2:27 PM
Curt,
During my XO tour we came very close to firing the COB. In the end, he quit before a decision could be made. Back then, there was a Navy wide inst that included the process and required actions (which included a naval message to e CNO). Not sure if the requirements have changed.
4/23/2012 2:31 PM
Someone asked WTF is going on? The main systemic problem we have had here lately is, we are qualifying guys when a job opens up as a hook up! When you do that, you rush the qualifications and put someone in the position who is not ready. Case in point, the boys here in Pearl got a call from Groton (because no one there wants to qualify) they looked around, Cordray was waving his beer toting hand and said I'll do it! There is no repercussions for the people who sign off their buddies. Base the qualifications off merit, track record and moral beliefs and see what kind of product you get. I bet you won't have infidelity and ARIs coming out of the wood work. Someone needs to take a look at how things are run here in Pearl. You would be surprised how much you would find.
/S/
Retiring Not-Soon enough!!!!
4/23/2012 2:45 PM
Curt...
The Chief of the Boat NEC is 9579, the Command Master Chief NEC is 9580.
A COB can get DFC'ed by either NJP for a specific incident, or the traditional, LOI-sustained-inferior-performance route. That's my understanding anyways.
As for the 3rd query, I couldn't imagine a commodore fighting a CO on firing a COB, or anybody else for that matter. Provided he can justify it, even a little.
4/23/2012 3:34 PM
Curt,
9579=COB. 9580=CMDCM. If you go from COB to CMDCM (like Big Jon Davis at CSS-1 for example) the 9579 is replaced w/ 9580 and you go from being detailed by the COB detailer to the CMC detailer, who are different people.
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/reference/milpersman/1000/1600Performance/Documents/1616-010.pdf is the DFC reference. Paragraph 2 states the CO submits the request via the member and his CoC (to at least the first flag officer) to NPC (PERS-832).
Hope that answers your questions.
4/23/2012 3:44 PM
"Someone referred to him as one of the COBs who were relieved of their duties. Why do you ask are you taking offense?"
MMCM John Akin was not relieved for cause as far as I know. If I am wrong, I would like it pointed out to me. He is an old shipmate.
4/23/2012 7:19 PM
He was the COB on Tennessee, he was detached for cause in a hazing situation similar to the Florida's.
4/23/2012 7:24 PM
I can't tell if Curt is asking:
A) Is there a different NEC for a CMDCM versus a COB?
or
B) Is there a difference in the processes between DFC'ing a CMDCM and DFC'ing a COB?
If he's asking A, the answers above apply. If he's asking B, there is no difference in the process. DFC is DFC
4/23/2012 7:36 PM
To all of you that refer to the incestuous nature of the Pacnorwest enlisted leadership, do tell the rest of us how you came to that conclusion. All Five of the current CMC's came from different AOR's. (three served on a local boat prior to their selection for their current job) Unless you are speaking to the fact that all of them grew up in the Submarine force?
4/23/2012 8:02 PM
Speaking of getting old...here's "Operation Petticoat" (1959), in all of its 2:00:29 glory, and free courtesy of YouTube.
4/23/2012 8:59 PM
My last Sub Ball.
I went to my last Sub Ball this weekend in Bangor. After 27 years I was kind of reflective, watching everyone there and you know... There was an energy there, I feel good punching out. Those Men and Women had something about them, the unity we have all come to enjoy. Not meaning to be touchy feely but you know. I feel good leaving seeing who is taking over.
They get it.
Cheers FTB4EVR/LCDRL
4/23/2012 10:34 PM
2 COBs in 4 months, I bet the Submarine Force hits 5 for the year. The quality is just not there anymore.
4/24/2012 4:08 AM
During my frist tour as a JO over the past 4 years, I wasnt exactly impressed over the quality of chiefs in the Goat Locker.
As I progressed in qualifications and knew more and more about the ship and what it means to be a leader, the more i realized that the goat locker didnt really bring anything to the table.
There were a few really outstanding Chiefs but the vast majority of them were lack luster at best. They were E-7s vice Chiefs.
Even the retired chiefs that i work with now (surface cheifs) just suck to work with. They will only do what is in their contract and nothing more. Is this the mentality that they developed out in the fleet?
I think the problem is that we promote these guys so fast to LPO and CPOs that we forget that they dont have the experience or mentorship that they need.
Long story short, a few good with a bunch of bad.
4/24/2012 6:19 AM
"I think the problem is that we promote these guys so fast to LPO and CPOs that we forget that they dont have the experience or mentorship that they need. "
While I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment that advancement happens entirely too quickly in most submarine rates, this comment was hilarious coming from a guy who is given a couple weeks of "leadership school" in SOBC and sent to be a division officer. Navy leadership IN GENERAL sucks - like the newcom department head (chop) I heard of last week who told his guys that he would automatically deny all leave chits as long as he was on board.
4/24/2012 6:31 AM
I so see how it could look funny, but who is supposed to teach us leadership and how to be a division officer?.....
THE CHIEFS!
I can sure as shit tell you that most of them are not doing that.
And by leadership school, do you mean the 4 years of leadership training that most of us had at their ROTC, Academy, or military college? Or the personal mentorship that they get from their XO and CO? I can tell you that my CO and XO are probably some of the best people that I will ever know.
Let’s also look at my post where I said "knew more and more about the ship and what it means to be a leader." I am not implying that I knew everything but merely implying that it takes time to learn how to become a leader. It takes experience.
So laughing hysterically at a JO’s leadership experience is a little silly to me considering that they get their abilities from their chiefs. If our leadership abilities are lacking, you have the CPOs mostly to blame.
Also, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist or even a nuclear engineer to figure out how to be a leader. Basic principles: Treat people with respect. Act professional. Don’t ask someone to do what you aren’t willing to do yourself. And show genuine concern for their personal and professional lives. Some chiefs can’t even do these basic principles that are the foundations of leadership.
Check yourself before you wreck yourself.
4/24/2012 6:59 AM
During my first sea tour as a Chief over the past 4 years,, I wasnt exactly impressed over the quality of officers in the Weird Room.
As I progressed in qualifications and knew more and more about the ship and what it means to be a leader, the more i realized that the weird room didnt really bring anything to the table.
There were a few really outstanding Officers but the vast majority of them were lack luster at best. They were O's vice Officers.
Even the retired officers that I work with now (surface officers) just suck to work with. They will only do what is in their contract and nothing more. Is this the mentality that they developed out in the fleet?
I think the problem is that we promote these guys so fast to Div O, DH, XO and CO that we forget that they dont have the experience or mentorship that they need.
Long story short, a few good with a bunch of bad.
Yep... This Is Getting Old...
4/24/2012 7:03 AM
Touché
Your right. It does go both ways.
4/24/2012 7:09 AM
Anon at 4/24 0659:
It's not that you make a horrible point, it's that you cast too wide a net. Anytime you make sweeping generalizations about a group of people, particularly when your naval experience was limited to a single ship, you should anticipate some well-deserved backlash.
People are people, and I think you'll find the same percentage of hot-running, great, good, average, and bad officers in the wardroom as you would chiefs in the goat locker.
4/24/2012 7:09 AM
Basic principles: Treat people with respect. Act professional. Don’t ask someone to do what you aren’t willing to do yourself. And show genuine concern for their personal and professional lives.
If you truly follow those in day-to-day taskings and all of the crap that goes with being on board, thank you. You're one of the good ones.
You're also extremely rare. I've worked with a lot of department heads and XOs. I do not envy them their jobs (I used to tell people there's not enough money in the world to entice me to be a department head on a submarine) but I will tell you this - they almost universally suck. They get caught up in the reality that they have all the responsibility and none of the authority, and they were not prepared to deal with the truly bizarre taskings that come from above. Most human beings can't handle that gracefully without getting caught up in self-centeredness or groupthink. That only adds to the fact that the very best and brightest of their peer group invariably leave the Navy as soon as they see what the job of a submarine LT/LCDR actually entails.
And when your hopes for JO leadership instruction are leaning on 9 year Chiefs who left the boat an E5 and returned to sea as an E7 in a lot of rates, it's a recipe for failure. Something is broken. I'd much rather see higher submarine pay and bigger bonuses than quicker advancement. E5/E6 should mean something - ask a Marine.
My point was not to belittle your point. In fact, I agree with it. My point is that the issue lies not with just the chiefs, but with the wardroom as well. Navy leadership in general just sucks. Deal with it, fix it, or leave. Unfortunately, most of the people who COULD fix it just leave.
4/24/2012 7:10 AM
But considering that it is the Chiefs responsibility to train the DivO. And the CPO is the DivO's first impression of how to be a leader, we may want to start to fix the Officer problem at this starting point.
Fix the CPO then you fix the DivO problem, then you eventually fix the CO/XO problem in 15 to 20 years.
Blame the NUB DivO or blame the 12 year CPO? You pick.
4/24/2012 7:11 AM
Good point. Me? I blame the system that made the unprepared kid a Chief too quickly, and then never gave him a reason to grow up once he had "made it."
Of course we should expect better leadership from our 35 year olds than our 25 year olds. Why then, do we keep making 8-9 year Chiefs?
4/24/2012 7:22 AM
Make all the jarhead jokes you want. The Marines do two things really well, teach rifle marksmanship and leadership.
As an E-6 E-Div LPO, I had no authority to do anything. The "leadership" mentoring I received from the goat locker consisted of lists of tasks to be completed, and a severe ass chewing for any incomplete items.
Once you made chief, you were in the club. 5 section EWS and all the porn movies you could watch.
ex-EM1(SS)
4/24/2012 7:36 AM
Club Goat!
4/24/2012 8:18 AM
Alright, time for the retired to chime in.
Here is what I saw as the real problem before I retired: Some guys, no matter how many years they have on submarines, will NEVER be a good leader. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.
We had a guy who made chief. He was not qualified COW or Dive, he had no real credentials, but he nearly aced the exam. At least that is the only thing we could find to justify his promotion. Our COB tried to make a leader of him. Us first classes took it in the ass while this fuck stick failed to understand his role. Eventually, the first classes took over the division. The goat locker conceded and when they needed something done, I was called.
It sounds like nothing has changed much, except the penalty for sticking your neck out for your guys. Hopefully, the next "next" generation will reverse that pattern.
4/24/2012 9:53 AM
What was the original post? Oh yeah, another COB fired. Listen the rules are simple. Act right, treat people with dignity, and put in 100% effort. Whats so hard. Why do we elevate these knuckleheads to positions of power then rip them out of there when they surprise us with immature actions and comments. You know who you are qualifying. I hope your not just the next number in line. Most of these guys are home grown. I foresee the next event, the people who certified the recommendations and signed their cards will be held responsible and accountable. We never had these problems when I was in, the COB was the man and he was the senior enlisted, no one had more time in including the CO. The COB trained everyone and there were no issues, because it meant something to him.If the water tastes bad, don't draw another cup, go after the source and fix the stink. Those days and sailors are gone. Good luck on the future you will need it!
4/24/2012 11:29 AM
Okay, everyone still on active duty sucks. Let me get this straight...No leadership ability from anyone: sucky JOs become sailor hating abusing DHs that grow into SR dwelling micromanaging XOs that become incompetent COs AND shitty PO1s roll into cushy Quarters hanging out Chiefs that without PO2s would never be able to become E-8s that are fired as COBs because no one taught them right from wrong when they were PO2s. Really??
Too bad there were no mentors to teach leadership before all the retards retired. It was sooo hard on them they had to quit to be able to critique those that still serve the flag they continue to piss on.
Just say thank you to those that put up with this environment.
4/24/2012 11:52 AM
Anon @ 11:52.
No one is pissing on the flag. You were making good points up until then.
4/24/2012 12:19 PM
Unfortunately, there are many guys out there who want to be a COB because it will get them to the next level. Not because they give a rats ass about anyone. They put on a show for the decision makers and their friends but deep down they only want the money for 9, the title, parking spot, office, star on the rating badge and the incentive pay albeit small. If the fired COB really gave a shit about the sailors in his charge he would not have accepted the job.
Knowing your limits is a huge part of what we do or did every day in the military. All the people who qualified him to be a COB should stand in front of the Admiral and tell him why they selected him. Not this “he was a great guy” crap but with some real tangible statements. It’s embarrassing and sad to watch guys continue this destructive trend. If he couldn’t hack it then where was his critical thinking and that of the personnel who gave him the ol’ slap on the ass out the door. Each and every one of them should be ashamed of themselves because they all share a piece. Don’t tell me they didn’t know. We all know better than that. You always know. You feel it deep in your gut, in the back of your head, in your soul that something just doesn’t fit.
When I was in the Navy, I would have many sleepless nights on the ship wondering if I did everything I could to avoid killing us all. I could feel my conscience telling me to check the position of the rock on the chart one last time or maybe we should go around to the north instead of south. I used these mental cues to keep myself and my shipmates safe for more than 1900 days of steaming. These “board” members should lose some real sleep over this. If they don’t, they don’t belong in the positions that they hold.
As far as the Good ol’ boy clubs go, knock it off and hold yourselves to the same standards you hold your sailors to. It’s ridiculous and makes you all look even worse when you allow this to happen. There is no number of stars in the universe to hide behind on this one. It's disgraceful.
4/24/2012 12:28 PM
QMCM(SS) - Well said. The cronyism and hiding behind stars of the Master Chief mafia here in Groton is alive and well. One recent COB selectee couldn't get a sig on his COB qualification card until he got face time in the Fouled Anchor CPO club, especially on wing Wednesdays. It wasn't his knowledge of COB stuff, but who he knew and how well he worked the social scene that got him the signatures and helped him pass his "board". Now he will be a COB on a Norfolk boat. This goes hand in hand with what my Department Master Chief told me when I first arrived here. Face time with the COB and other high ranking Chiefs ensures you an EP on your CPOEVAL. Yeah...I ignored that advice and toe the line on doing my job to the best of my ability and holding high standards. All the other crap is ancillary.
4/24/2012 1:02 PM
Face Time =
Working Together =
Team
So, Wednesdays???? Sounds Great!
Get out of your comfort zone and help each other out. CPO Club?? Some would 'kill' to be able to go!
4/24/2012 1:47 PM
I see a lot of 'leadership sucks' posts, but no one seems to be defining what that means. That comment itself is "casting the net too wide," as there are many different aspects to leadership. What exactly are you all finding lacking among CPOs'/Officers' leadership?
Secondly, I don't buy that a CPO can train an Officer on how to be a leader. That is not because CPOs suck, but because the style of leadership required to be successful on the senior enlisted end is different from the Officer end, particularly as Officers move past their DIVO tour. CPOs are supposed to teach DIVOs the ropes, the technical aspects of the ship, and the administrative portion of their duties as a division officer. Teaching JOs leadership takes an engaged DH/XO/CO.
4/24/2012 2:06 PM
Here is real leadership from an old retired SCPO.
Old school:
Leadership is not a tangible item. It's about making strong decisions and doing whats right. Good Chiefs take the division officer when he's young and brief the CO together when they are required to. The Chief stands in with him and shows the unity required of a Div-o and Chief!
As the Officer grows, he knows the right way to do things and keeping the communication gap bridged up and down the chain. His trust in Chiefs never waivers so when he becomes a CO he knows the anchor means something.
The Chief grows up doing the right thing developing his relief. He becomes a Chief of the Boat and he sacrifices his personal life after the 20 year mark to take care of the sailors who take care of this great nation.
Today:
The Chief and Officer are so far apart it is eveident in how we talk to each other on these posts.
Some one said it right when they said the COB of today is just there for the E-9 pay. There are still some good MCPOs left. They need to tow the line and set the course straight! These COBs that are bringing disgrace to the Navy need to be held accountable and the next generation had better take care of these sailors or we will be in a world of hurt.
4/24/2012 2:21 PM
To anonymous a few posts above (underneath QMCM). I cannot speak to the "mafia". But I do know the person in question you are talking about. Intentionally or not you called out a good person when railing against the process. I know the PCOB in question and he is a good man who has worked hard on his qualifications. I would proudly serve as his Radio Chief on whichever boat he assumes control of (as long as he doesn't mind me tearing apart the boats instructions!!). He backs up his guys, he knows and sets the standards and he is always willing to listen, learn and better himself, his CPO quarters and those who serve with him. I don't write this as his buddy, friend or personal confidant, but as a person who has worked and served with him. As a person who is proud to call him shipmate.
Maybe you should rewrite your post to not reflect on the man but on the process and provide a solution to make it better if you think it is broken. I figure you are serving here in Groton and if you would like to discuss the issue call me at x5190. Just ask for the guy who served on the Turtle.
4/24/2012 3:12 PM
I new STSCS at Sqd 1 we were good friends, I had him and his wife over several times, I didn't even think that he drank. I new he had some issues in groton but they were behind him. He did the qual card was boarded and was sent to a boat like a good sailor should. Men make mistakes and until you sit in those shoes, you should not judge.
4/24/2012 6:19 PM
Want to find the solution to the problems with Naval Leadership? Fix the guy in the mirror.
4/24/2012 6:21 PM
ddm. You nailed it.
4/24/2012 7:17 PM
Lets get something straight here, I don't condone anything he did that got him into this situation and I don't suggest he get a pass either. He is accountable for his actions.
When we accept positions of authority, we have to walk the talk 24/7. Our senior leaders that continue to black mark our long and successful history obviously forgot that along the way. I don't know if they feel their invincible or above reproach, but something has caused them to believe the rules don't apply to them.
We've all seen this, some of us have lived this, so before you jump to conclusions and get on your high horses....check yourself!!! What bothers me more is where were the rest of the 4 SCPOs/12 CPOs in that Mess. Was this COB so bad that 16 CPOs would rather see him fail than help him. And if the answer is yes, than all 16 should turn in their anchors, because that is not what Chief's are about.
4/24/2012 8:19 PM
Anon @ 4/24/2012 6:19 PM
" Men make mistakes and until you sit in those shoes, you should not judge."
Uh, he was the enlisted leader in theatre disobeying his own alcohol policy? I have walked in his shoes and will again on deployment. I can say this, no amount of checkouts and cook outs taught me not to disrespect my Navy and country. Whoever you are, I am glad you are loyal to him, but did you really know him? Obviously the Pearl leadership sent this guy out to represent them and did not. When he was here, he had some alcohol issues, maturity should have fixed it. Make sure you call and let him know you stuck for him, he will be here with us at squadron.
4/24/2012 8:21 PM
Old COB said,
Maybe part of the trouble with the COB of today is the selection process. It sounds to me like almost anyone could become COB if he puts his mind to it. Qualification card, selection board?? That is about 30% of what makes a good COB. Before this selection process, lots of Chiefs went from boat to boat, job to job and never were," asked" to be COB for different reasons. There were those certain few that were. Maybe they should go back to that old selection process. COB leaving. Three senior officers get together and discuss which Chief has the best leadership and character qualities, knows his boat, knows his job and gets it done, gets along with the crew and wardroom, etc. CO makes final selection. It WAS NOT always the "good old boy" E-9. Sometimes a E-8, or God forbid, a 7. TMC Bishop of the Scorpion was asked to take COB before he even put the hat on. How is that for getting the right man. If you want real leadership, GET THE RIGHT MAN/PERSON, support them and let them lead, instead of just paying lip service. Don't believe Big Navy really wants true leaders though, they just want PC sheepal.
4/24/2012 11:15 PM
I am a Chief who has aspirations of being a COB, but the word here in Groton is that if I don't go to the Goat Locker and drink beer at the end of the bar I will be black balled. So far the majority of the COBs picked here in Groton have paid their so-called dues. Some of them are good for the Navy Senior Chiefs and some are not so good. I don't have a lot of respect for what goes on here in Groton, but thats the process.
4/25/2012 4:00 AM
Let's see, COBs with alcohol problems, especially publically in front of the crew can lead to disasterous things.
ETCM Prevot on HARTFORD in 2008-2009 is a prime example. In that case, no one (CO and Squadron included) took any action until after the collision.
If the COB can't comply with and set basic standards (as in this current case), he needs to GO. BZ to the CO for making the call and to Squadron for supporting him. Tough for the team while on deployment, but much better for the ship in the long run.
4/25/2012 4:41 AM
If ANYONE pretends there is not a problem with the E-9's in Groton. They are either a part of the "CPOA" (who audits your books?) or a member of the Seaman gang. The best thing that could have happened to the Sub community would have been to shut down the base. The E-9 coverup's that go on here would make the GSA blush.
4/25/2012 5:33 AM
I am stationed on the SSN760, It wasn't just alcohol that got him it was his poor leadership ability and the morale of the crew went to shit.
4/25/2012 7:42 AM
I am stationed on the SSN760, It wasn't just alcohol that got him it was his poor leadership ability and the morale of the crew went to shit.
4/25/2012 7:43 AM
To ANON 8:21 PM
" Men make mistakes and until you sit in those shoes, you should not judge."
Are you serious? What the hell are FITREPS? What the hell is counseling for? You make an accessment on their job performance and leadership abilities, and then you judge how well they are going to do another job. Part of the FITREP has a series of blocks that allows you to judge their charecter.
The military is cruel place where we do routinly judge people because we dont want shitty people leading our men and women. This is the ideal at least.
4/25/2012 8:45 AM
I was a nuc ("F"ing nuc if you prefer) in the 80's and would have made chief under 8 with only one sea tour if I had not decided to get out, I turned the anchors down and left because I had a better offer outside. I did not have the experience to be a chief, I know that now, I extended for E-5 and could answer questions on a test geared to the ninth grade level and that is why I advanced so rapidly. I had an old crusty FTBCM tell me when I was E-6 that my primary duties were to train my relief, and train the JO's good advice. Captain Stone had an MMCM assigned to the boat who had trained him as MPA wanted him to train his JO's in Eng. Thats the way things used to work there were problems and because of the number of people making E-7 like I could have leadership was beginning to fail then. I am sorry to see that it seems to have fallen to such a low level. The lack of leadership in the flag ranks can probably be traced back to the rapid advancement that was happening in the 80's and the lack of leadership preparation both senior PO's, chiefs and JO's were receiving then.
4/25/2012 9:47 AM
"Let's see, COBs with alcohol problems, especially publically in front of the crew can lead to disasterous things.
ETCM Prevot on HARTFORD in 2008-2009 is a prime example. In that case, no one (CO and Squadron included) took any action until after the collision"......
Never got the details on what transpired with his incident/situation, please elaborate.
4/25/2012 9:50 AM
It makes you wonder how much attention Joel's blog really commands. When you see the comments about E9 coverups in Groton, who else is reading that. Can something like that make wheels start turning and get those guys under the microscope? I think it's great. Let those old dogs in the mafia get their dicks stomped on and sent home. As a newer member of the CPO mess, we received alot of what I considered great training while I was going thru induction. Once I got to my new duty station and see how the CMCs of the area sit on their fat asses and call shots, it makes me sick. All that great training about what a CPO should be seems like alot of wishful thinking. It makes me wonder if I should believe the hype. If maybe in another 10-15 years when that group of CPOs that I respect and who taught me about the ideal CPO will deliver on their promises when they are CMCs. I guess I will have to wait and see. But one things is for certain, whether they deliver or not, I won't be subjected to their assclownery.
4/25/2012 9:54 AM
Good word... "Assclownery"
My mission today is to use this in general conversation.
4/25/2012 10:40 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Let me help you with that:
1. The United States Congress has been engaged in Assclownery for the last 4 or 5 years!
2. The voters of DC are well known in their Assclownery for re-electing Marion Berry to additional council terms!
3. "Fast and Furious" was Assclownery as its best!!!
4. Based on the comments on this forum, sounds like US Navy Leadership principles up and down the CoC, are based on the principle "Assclownery early and often, let God sort it out"!
Did I miss any?
4/25/2012 11:33 AM
I Bet It's Just Delicious!
4/25/2012 12:23 PM
Dear Big Navy,
Your problem can be fixed if you actually held a critique over the selection process. If many of these COB's are known problems, how is it they are getting selected. Maybe every COB board should have an objective QA advisor present, who will review all the facts (evals, interviews with Commands, etc.) to act as a witness to the Board. Until then, you will always have the rumors of fixed boards from the MC Mafia. And as for PNW, we are the worst when it comes to the Mafia. A top down review is in immediate need.
Sincerely,
A Qualified Person, retired.
4/25/2012 12:47 PM
OK, so there's two areas who are begging for a self-assessment!!?? WTF! Who owns the process? I am unclear how our Navy has got here!
4/25/2012 1:41 PM
We've been doing this for awhile. It is disappointing to see fellow submariners cast stones at fellow submarines with such abandon. I've been doing this for 20+ years. I was trained as a JO by a quality E6 with phenomenal standards. He was a "chief" in his day to day execution. He eventually made Master Chief. The Chiefs are the lifes blood of our force. Do we have issues? Of course, some chiefs don't adapt well. But participating in the transition season for multiple years, I think the Quarters is making great strides in developing leaders. Are some guys advancing too fast for the leadership development. Sure...some are. But we need them! We advance because we have holes. More experience would be great, but it is not a reality. I've seen GREAT E6s not make CPO but that is a realtively small subset of our system. Th E9 mafia alluded to is not as strong as indicated in my opinion. Seen San Diego, Pearl, Bangor and Kings Bay. Most E9 I've associated with are dedicated to the Navy and the Sailors. The "you must drink beer" associations, I've never seen. I've watched then discuss, train, mentor, reject and qualify future COBs. The Qual card at least requires three of them to sign off on "acceptance". I have senn them hold very high standards. Are mistakes made? Of course. Do some guys selected violate the standards that they were selected to? Yes. Just like Officers. As an idealist, it would be great to see people not disparage the superior (but sometimes faulty) systme we have. As an Officer, we sometimes screen for CO on paper that don't compare to COSS guys for leadership. It is an unfortunate partial flaw in our system We keep working to improve. I think the same with the Chiefs. 75-85% of the CPOs I know are at least good. Some just don't cut it. But our jobs and theirs is hard. Make the disparaging SPECIFIC comments about individuals with discrete flaws that violate our ideals, but I as an Officer think you do the Enlisted Community a disservice by casting a genral net of CPO incompetence and MCPO mafia. It is just not true. I depend on and respect the E6 and CPO community. Those of you retired and active would be better served by remembering how hard a job we all perform, how flawed we all are when it comes down to it, and bottom line, we all at least raised our hand to Defend the Constitution...more than 90% of our fellow Americanrs. Throw your stones, but damn, do it with some measure of respect.
--A dumb-ass O-gang lifer
4/25/2012 7:55 PM
Well after that post... does anyone have anything intelligent enough to rebuttal that?
I didn't think so. Well said Sir.
Next Topic Please
4/25/2012 8:41 PM
"ETCM Prevot on HARTFORD in 2008-2009 is a prime example. In that case, no one (CO and Squadron included) took any action until after the collision."
This is prime example of what is now termed a "Soft Landing", PREVOT was relieved early as COB of CITY OF CORPUS CHRISTI for poor performance. Same stuff that led to HARTFORD grounding and his removal again. They transferred to the east coast in hopes he would go away, but low a behold he gets a second COB tour. How could that happen you ask...I'll tell you, because the CO and Squadron didn't want to ruin his career. So instead of giving him a SP (significant problems) and documenting his eval, they marked him P (Promotable) and mentioned nothing of why he was transferring early. Thats how soft we've gotten. Oh and there is another looming out there at SLC Groton.
4/25/2012 8:50 PM
@anon8:41 agreed, it was a good post, I can't rebut that, certainly - but you're still a sycophantic twirp; god man, get a hold of yourself...
4/25/2012 10:07 PM
@4/25/2012 8:50 PM:
"Oh and there is another looming out there at SLC Groton."
--------------------------------------------
I agree. Most dysfunctional training command with which I dealt--from the instructor side. And yes, my dealings are fairly recent.
4/25/2012 10:16 PM
It's 11:59 on Radio Free America; this is Uncle Sam, with music, and the truth until dawn. Right now I've got a few words for some of our brothers and sisters in the occupied zone: "the chair is against the wall, the chair is against the wall", "john has a long mustache, john has a long mustache". It's twelve o'clock, American, another day closer to victory. And for all of you out there, on, or behind the line, this is your song.
4/26/2012 4:52 AM
"I didn't think so. Well said Sir."
Commence snorkeling!
Anyway, for us old timers, firings like these occured in the past...they just were not broadcast via the internet. Nothing to really see here, lets move on.
4/26/2012 6:06 AM
Here is the Catch 22 of the whole situation: Unless you know a guy personally, you can't vouch for him. The common way to get to know a person is to do things you normally do together. If the leader of the pack normally goes to a bar at 1530 every day, the ones who are there with you get to rub elbows - hence the alleged mafioso. (Pick your location)
The other side of that coin is you pick a guy you kinda know, and based on his paperwork merits, choose him. It is a crap shoot whether you get the hard worker, the asshole or the useless. Also, power changes a man. Some are hard workers as a junior, but become "entitled" when he gets more senior.
The SYSTEM isn't easily fixable. You have a better chance of fixing what is wrong with the national debt than fixing impropriety and cronyism in the military. Human behavior, and all.
Oh, and let's not forget the squeaky wheel. I'm not even going to finger a person, group, or type to justify the statement - Y'all can just insert your own squeaky wheel, as examples.
4/26/2012 6:54 AM
It’s not snorkeling or butt sharking if you and the person that you are talking to are anonymous.
Dumbass
4/26/2012 9:51 AM
It is butt sharking, but it is to no benefit. You snorkeled nobody, but everyone saw it. That's just sad.
4/26/2012 9:57 AM
I love the Urban Dictionary:
Butt Snorkeling, Having one's head so far up their boss's ass and still being able to breathe out
his nostrils when the boss is standing in 5 feet of water!
4/26/2012 10:09 AM
Ill snorkel all day in the Fouled Anchor so i can make E-9 and be a COB. I won’t have to do anything. I’ll just sit at the bar with my COB qual card and snorkel away. All of you people who look down on it will be looking up to me when I’m your COB...
Hahaha...... "prepare to snorkel"
4/26/2012 10:50 AM
In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth,
the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a mighty wind swept over the waters.
Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4/26/2012 12:14 PM
Seriously?
4/26/2012 12:54 PM
America is a whorehouse... where the revolutionary ideals of your forefathers... are corrupted and sold in alleys by vendors of capitalism...
4/26/2012 2:13 PM
Proverbs 29:18
"Where there is no vision, the people perish."
4/26/2012 3:08 PM
" Anonymous said...
I am a Chief who has aspirations of being a COB, but the word here in Groton is that if I don't go to the Goat Locker and drink beer at the end of the bar I will be black balled.
4/25/2012 4:00 AM
Posted something similar about being told shortly after arriving on my first boat as a CPO- in the 1980's- that I'd never make senior chief because I didn't drink. And was lambasted for it in follow on comments.
Had the COB on first boat tell me to my face that he thought I was unstable. He used to brag that he had been married 3 times, and couldn't selebrate his first wedding anniversery. I'm at 34 and counting. His judgement that I was unstable held- because he was a Master Chief and I was only a Chief with 2-1/2 years shore duty as a Chief before I went back to sea duty. He was a manly man- 3 wives. At the Club every night.
let's face it- drunks are socialable people. The system is designed, not to make COBS of those with leadership qualities, but those with a high socialability index. If you get along with everyone, it looks like you've got good leadership abilities.
Ain't necessarily so, but that's the way it is.
4/26/2012 3:27 PM
I duno I've had a Holy roller COB who would "Pray for my soul" when I would F&ck-up. A "shipmate" COB who was a freakin GOD to the crew. and a fat drunk COB who put his car on auto pilot from the CPO club nightly. The drunk was the funiest by far. And he was a great leader to my junior ass to get the hell out because the chance of getting 1 good guy out of 3 was horseshit. Just keep pointing fingers you khaki clad cork-suckers! the problem is YOU! AHHAHAHAHAH!!!!
4/26/2012 7:31 PM
Who is this SLC Groton suspect? Are his initials A.D.? Interestingly, he was selected for CWO (or maybe LDO, I forget)some years back, but declined the selection. Always thought that was a little curious since he bothered to apply in the first place.
Anyway, he looks obese in his bio pic, just saying....
4/26/2012 11:23 PM
Every base has their own mafia. From Kings Bay to Pearl Harbor. It's all the same bullshit. This behavior will continue until we completely change promotion progression on CPOs. A COB should not be assigned to a boat without at least five years as a CPO/SCPO at sea. They need to get the experience as a CPO at sea first. Then get familiar with being a SCPO...... Some of these guys are going the COB route for one reason only - make MCPO. Some of the COBs that have been DFC'd in the past 3 or 4 years, were average - Yes... average CPOs in their rate and now they are MCPOs because they were COBs. Separate the SCPOs and P-COBS into their own group for promotion. You will be surprise to find out that the number of interested personnel wanting to be COBs will dropped. If their chances of promotion diminishes, they why go COB?
It gets better! Some of these COBs never performed at sea as SCPOs. So what the hell is going on in the submarine force.
4/27/2012 1:10 AM
@ Anonymous 1:10 AM...
You are spot on.
Also, in most rates, it is next to impossible to make MCPO unless you go the COB route.
I may get flamed for this, but whatever.
For me: I want to be a MASTER (MCPO) at my rate and I don't see whats the issue with that. If your career intentions do not have serving as "Chief of the Boat" in your future, you have a high chance of getting a label as being less-than a hard charger... even though you are pretty much guaranteed to make MCPO if you do go COB. Interesting enough.
Personally, I will have more satisfaction IF I get promoted in-rate. Which is why I don't gamble because I like going against the odds.
4/27/2012 2:57 AM
Anon @ 4/27/2012 2:57 AM
"I may get flamed for this, but whatever."
You should be flame sprayed. Thats what we need in todays Navy, a person who is only looking out for themselves and not wanting to lead sailors. Your days of collecting a pay check and standing a mediocre watch should be over. If you do not want to lead men, then get out. The reason why we are struggling now, there are low lifes like you that just hang out with their "P" fitreps hoping the quotas will be high enough to make Master Chief. If your not going to lead men, then move out so someone can move up! MCPOs in the submarine force move on to lead men as COBs not hang out!
Serving CMC in Groton!
4/27/2012 4:49 AM
Anon @ 4/27/2012 2:57 AM
Don't post again, you'll just embarass yourself!
4/27/2012 4:51 AM
So the only way to lead men, as an enlisted Sailor, is to be a COB? Got it. let's make sure we let all the EDMC's and all the rest of the department Chiefs on-board and ashore that they aren't really leaders of men.
Fucking idiot.
4/27/2012 6:34 AM
Two members of the problem above.
I would have greatly appreciated a department master chief who cared more about his rate, leading, and mentoring men than some of the want to be COBs I've seen stepping on backs of sailors and sucking the E9 mafia ass to be a COB. I've experienced in action a department SCPO who could run circles around the COB, but his fitrep was lower because; "he cannot be higher than the COB". Needless to say the COB didn't last, but the dept SCPO advanced, then retired at 20. I've seen quite a few excellent enlisted leaders retire as SCPO/MCPO at 20 years, because they do not want to be part of this "mafia" organization. A post above said that it didn't exist, but you all know it does, and "they" should be reflecting inward to address the issue, not flame spraying people who don't drink the kool-aide.
4/27/2012 6:41 AM
@ Anon 12:47 and Anon 755 (Fighting Double Nickel)-
Your points are great, I see this as a process problem with very little quality control. The selection method fo officers and chiefs has aolmost nothing to do with leadership. Each of the borads I sat on always started with someone saying "Although it may not be perfect, this process is fair." It is fair, for those who meet the same criteria as those selecting did. Ducks pick ducks (no offense ducky). So if you become the rec committee chair(person), or the deck div LPO, or the QAO, you will more than likely percolate to the top because our selection system has less to do with leadership than it does with how your evals are written. And for those who have never sat a board you are behind already because unless you know the secret sauce recipe, your sailors are doomed.
4/27/2012 6:44 AM
This is an example of the kind of hubris in the CMC community that makes it difficult for the 'mere Chiefs' in the GoatLocker to work as a team.
4/27/2012 6:44 AM
Gezzz.. You hurt my feelings. Well, it's back to the bar to be with my friends.
Serving CMC in Groton!
4/27/2012 6:48 AM
The "quality" of some COB’s…
There are good ones, but these are examples of what the current system allows. Then the system freaks out because they can’t figure out why morale is down, crews have poor standards, cheating on exams, etc.
Remember, on a Submarine there are no secrets. The blue-shirts are not stupid. They see what is going on.
COB covers up drinking issues in CPO quarters, repeatedly "rescuing" a CPO who had unreported accidents while driving drunk. CPO eventually gets DUI and COB could no longer cover it up. Lucky that CPO in question never killed anybody.
"I am here to serve the CO, not the CPO quarters or the crew". Consistently met the CO at the head of the pier to carry his bag down every morning. Polled the crew for new underwear for the CO underway because the cooks caused "brown burn marks" by drying his underwear too long. Supported the CO in restricting entire CS Division and Supply Officer to boat while on deployment because his hamburger bun was not sliced correctly.
COB walked out on the crew and the boat for 30 days because the job was too tough. He was allowed to come back and finish with zero repercussions.
COB consistently would take "leave" to go see his wife while stationed in the shipyard. Miraculously he was only charged leave for half the trips. Command didn't care. Same COB went on "leave" to see his wife. Wife called boat to talk to him. She was told he was down there. He wasn't. All out search ensues for COB. Turns out COB was 500 miles North of his destination gambling at casino with his girlfriend. COB allowed to continue.
COB applies pressure to PFA coordinator to ensure fat CPO’s don’t get weighed over. Especially the 375lb TM Chief. Can’t embarrass the quarters by letting a Chief fail. Not that it wasn’t embarrassing having a guy who was stress testing his uniform and who would be winded walking from one end of the boat to the other.
At recent CPO dining in, several CMC’s and COBs and CPO’s think it is a good idea to wear pink bow ties in mockery of the military’s stand on allowing homosexuals and women in the Sub Force. Good job in setting the example and upholding policy. Instead you mock it and then act shocked when we have harassment, hazing and sexual assaults.
As a reminder, the blue-shirt on the deck plate hears and sees more than you know. Continue to set a bad example for us then shoot us in the face for the very same thing you did the weekend before and then wonder why you get zero respect.
4/27/2012 6:50 AM
Who is this cob you speak of? Such big accusations...how a bout a boat name at least
4/27/2012 7:23 AM
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/scoopdeck/2012/04/24/lgbt-leaders-push-for-next-ship-to-be-named-harvey-milk/
OrAHHHHHHH... USS HARVEY MILK
Stand up, Be proud to serve and your next tootsie roll errrr ship will be named after thizzz guy... Geez.
4/27/2012 7:28 AM
@ Anon 4:49 AM and 4:51 AM
Tripwire: No need to get personal, I'm not a low life.
Ranked #1 of many for the last 5 years. AND because I am not a P, my team does it share and then some with the chain-of-command's current mission, backed-up the Mess and did more than my job because that's how I do business. Most of the Chiefs that work with me are on the same train. All the while managing not to go out of my way and not compromise my true self and participate in games. Wasn't that hard. I don't play games. You do not know me, check yourself.
I wasn't taking a personal stab at COB's. I'm just saying there are good leaders across the board and ALL good leadership should be considered. Even YOU (Anon 4:49AM & 4:51AM) can't run a Chiefs Mess or help a command operate by yourself.
If the above is an issue for you, maybe YOU need to retire.
4/27/2012 8:02 AM
Boy, I’m sure glad that this post isn’t public or anything. I wonder how screwed up we would look to the outside observer......
I am also glad that perception isn’t reality ......
Oh wait a minute... I’m practicing what we like to call.... Sarcasm
4/27/2012 8:27 AM
To make this exciting since the bible verses are not cutting it....
Could everyone
1. Let us all know what you are drinking when you post
2 How many you have had.......
4/27/2012 10:12 AM
I'm drinking koolaid and I've had six large glasses. Did you see that the Senate Armed Services Committee is telling the Navy to put the second VIRGINIA back in the budget? Yay!
4/27/2012 10:48 AM
@ 7:28
At least Milk was actually assassinated, unlike certain other honored politicians.
4/27/2012 2:37 PM
I'm drinkin milk and only had one r 2. Can't wait to see the uss koolaid, good news this comitee will port it in VIRGINIA.
4/27/2012 3:48 PM
Don't need to drink anything alcoholic, I'm high on Navy life!!!!
Just like anything else we do, say or hear we always have great hindsight! I've been a COB twice and a CMC once and on my second tour, let me tell you we all live on decisions that could cost us our careers. While I will tell you I have not got snot slinging drunk while I was the COB or CMC and I do not think that the Annapolis COB went out with the intention of doing it on purpose. We will never know, we can not speak for the man. All we(as in the sub force) can do is stand up straight, chin high and say, that will not happen again. If it does then accountability needs to be held just like in this case. Everyone that has chimed in on this post has a lot to say whether positive or negative with pride and conviction and each comment stings some of us that are still on active duty. Don't let this instance or any past issues erode the comraderie, pride and honor the submarine force brings to us all. Stand tall retired with active duty and this to will pass!
Hoo Yah Submarine Force!
4/27/2012 6:12 PM
^^^^^^^
Good god man, work on your written communication skills! And everybody wonders why the selection boards sometimes select the "wrong" person.
4/27/2012 6:53 PM
What about the COB and midshipman in PCNW???
4/27/2012 6:56 PM
PCNW Greg left Pearl because his wife told him it was over if they stayed in HI. The reason many PACNW COB's stay below the radar is because they never leave the AOR.
4/27/2012 7:04 PM
Once again we are well over 100 posts and well past anything interesting being discussed. Time to close it out Joel!
4/27/2012 7:13 PM
Something interesting...
The MCPO board concluded Thursday afternoon. Many board members enjoyed Beale street earlier in the week by tying one on and then went on reviewing records the next day. Kind of makes you wonder if the MC reviewing your file missed a few points because he was a little tired (couldn't be hungover!) until after lunch revitalized him...They were at least smarter than Greg though and no one got too sloppy.
4/27/2012 8:05 PM
^^^^
Seriously? What an outrage!
This is the first I've ever heard of people going out while TDY!
Were all the churches closed?
4/27/2012 8:53 PM
If your not going to lead men, then move out so someone can move up! MCPOs in the submarine force move on to lead men as COBs not hang out!
Seriously? In four years on a boat and two COBs, the ONLY thing either of them did was write the berthing bill and check for haircuts. Other than that, they were useless as tits on a boar. Wait, they were completely useless. Oh, and they were night and day; one a drunk tatted up fool, the other a command suck up.
4/27/2012 10:49 PM
Uh oh...looks like some MCPO training coming down the line.
Overheard yesterday after a pretty high-up briefing:
"Master Chief, get on my calendar today."
"Will do, what's the topic sir?"
"Lets call it Master Chief image, reality, perception and repair...Force wide."
"Uhhhhhhh...yes sir?!"
Someone's been reading TSSBP!
Oh...good morning sir!
4/28/2012 8:27 AM
Can't repair something they don't think is broken.
4/28/2012 10:36 AM
Well obviously someone important and with enough clout thinks that its important. Somebody important enough to make a Master Chief believe that its important......
4/28/2012 11:35 AM
I have a feeling the changes are being handed down fleet wide. Too many personnel scandals happening (DOD and Civil Service) on this administrations watch. Senior officers have been told to fix it themselves or get fixed by "outside help".
With money on the line, nobody wants "outside help" fixing the business.
4/28/2012 12:45 PM
I fear the real "submarine mafia" is not in Groton, Kitsap, or KB, etc. It is in a far more dangerous locale, and includes too many skimmers.
4/28/2012 6:57 PM
Damnt Vigilis! No one is going to your stupid ass blog. Ive looked at your blog and there are 0 comments for the past year.
4/28/2012 7:57 PM
"Lets call it Master Chief image, reality, perception and repair...Force wide."
Good luck with that! My image is fine. We've got SS getting in trouble while guarding the CINC, politicians flying all over the world on government funds, and society issues everywhere. The MCPOs in the Navy do not need a face lift. So get over it!
4/29/2012 5:53 AM
Thats funny, because the majority of the people on this blog think that you do.
who ever said that you "can't repair something that they don't think is broken" is dead on.
What to make your that point clear for us.
4/29/2012 7:08 AM
As a recently retired MCPO, one reason I left the navy is because the CPO Mess--yes, including myself--requires a face lift. I found myself being a contributor to some of the issues, without having the resources to bring to bear to fix them (and it wasn't for lack of trying). Those in power (read MCPON, FLTMCs, FORMCs, etc.) realize that the system is what got them there, so why are they going to want the system to change? More germane to the original discussion: The navy has screening boards for COs, XOs, etc. Why not screening boards for COBs that are removed from the hands of local commanders (i.e., convene the board in Millington)? Will there be issues with this type of process? Undoubtedly--just as there are issues with the E-9/8/7 boards today. However, it seems, based on many of the comments in this thread, that there are issues associated with the COB qual/assignment process. As Einstein stated: "Insanity--doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Seems as if his quote describes the process at hand. Just my $0.02.
4/29/2012 8:11 AM
"Good luck with that! My image is fine. We've got SS getting in trouble while guarding the CINC, politicians flying all over the world on government funds, and society issues everywhere. The MCPOs in the Navy do not need a face lift. So get over it!"
And they are probably going to start with people like Mr. Excuses here!
Right, wrong or indifferent, "help" is on the way. Let's just hope the "help" doesn't go overboard and cause more problems, although there is always some wounded from collateral damage.
A good top-down cleaning of the military (and all of government for that matter) is what's needed.
4/29/2012 9:49 AM
It's thugs like Prevot that give MCPO's a bad name. Dude was a shit-bag COB on the CoCC, somehow became a "Golden Boy" at NavSubScol, and then comically got another opportunity to become a shit-bag COB again. Nearly everyone at SubScol was in disbelief.....except the MCPO's.
He is the perfect example of how/why the COB system is so fucked up.
4/29/2012 10:26 AM
Regarding the link to Vig's blog and no comments all year... the particular "sub mafia", the above was posted by me, not Vig, and he published the "sub mafia" CARTOON three (3) years ago in (2008).
For newbies who never got warnings from Navy higher ups, "Molten Eagle" was banned for E-6 and below. Guessing E-7s and above (including retired) are afraid to leave comments.
It don't stop the faithful, and more power to those unafraid to cite facts to support hard-dug facts to beliefs the current regime does not wish published!
A.F. Salt
There have been several this
4/29/2012 10:45 AM
To the "JO" that speaks badly of the Goat Locker and Chiefs in general; where did you come from? Chief's are still the backbone of the Navy and in it for the long haul. So did you stay for the long haul? Or better yet, did the Navy buy your degree and you paid us back for it then did us a favor and leave? Let's hope that is the case because with attitudes like yours you are part of the problem. To the Chief that bad mouthed the JO's and "weird" room, grow up and act like a Chief, there is no place for such comments, we ARE the example, leave that kind of stuff to the JO's as they are less than most SN's. As for the COB being fired, the CO did the right thing. The right thing has ALWAYS been the hardest thing to do. The Mess needs to unite and take back the boat, the crew and BE the leadership.
4/29/2012 11:49 AM
How can chiefs set the example?
If everybody followed the Goat Locker's example, Nobody would field day, and we'd only stand watch twice a week. (unless you are a nuke)
4/29/2012 4:12 PM
Actually, i am in it for the long haul. I love being a submariner. I love driving the boat. I love the guys. I love the mission. I really enjoy this job.
I do think that there is a problem with the Chiefs in general. There were a lot of Chiefs that were really good but i think that there are far more Chiefs that behave like E-7s. I am sorry if you disagree with my comments but I know that I am not alone in my comments.
My COB was absolutely fantastic as a JO. My first COB was a piece of Shit. My first COB was part of the Groton Mafia.
Its easy to tell people to shut up and color. Its hard to analyze a problem that may be because of you.
4/29/2012 6:03 PM
John 8:32
"...and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
4/30/2012 1:36 AM
finance broker melbourne
Hi Bubblehead. I hope operators of submarines are not having difficulties coping up with all the commands especially those that were changed constantly.
4/30/2012 1:38 AM
Then maybe the Selection Boards need to be more "selective" AND look for some more senior people to advance to Chief. When you have a bunch of junior people advancing faster than the vessel cutting though water, there lies your problem. It's basically the blind leading the blind and where IS that senior leadership? Retired, tired, worn out all of the above. It is every Chief Petty Officer's responsibility to make sure the newest selections become Chiefs. Just cause you are selected does not make you a Chief. I am a retired MCPO - Surface Navy and it's difficult since initiation has basically become a "tea party", but just because one puts on the "hat" does not stop your responsibility to make the Blue Shirt a Chief. No other way I know of to get there except through the experienced ones.... Think about it.
4/30/2012 11:04 AM
After reading a lot of the post's I see a huge majority of people that have never done the COB tour. As a post COB, you never really know the job until you get to the point of being relieved. Then you finally get it. It is easy to step in for the COB for a week while the "COB" takes leave. But to do the JOB for the entire 36 months, takes another toll. Even the COB's have issues, however it is very lonely at the top. Some are drunks, and some deal with depression. I have seen other COB's that faulter by the wayside, cause they have a CPO quarters that have a 10 out of 12 newly promoted chiefs in there CPO quarters. The other two is a EDMC, and you might get lucky with a 3MC that has a CPO at sea under his belt. The responsibilty of the COB is enormous. I still envy my first COB, however he would of not made it in today's Navy. He was a drunk and would of been relieved of his duties just like this guy did. I do agree with the Groton COB mafia though, if you are not a drinker than you will not get any support from them.
4/30/2012 11:19 AM
Someone Anonymous said on 4/27/2012 8:05 PM
"Something interesting...
The MCPO board concluded Thursday afternoon. Many board members enjoyed Beale street earlier in the week by tying one on and then went on reviewing records the next day. Kind of makes you wonder if the MC reviewing your file missed a few points because he was a little tired (couldn't be hungover!) until after lunch revitalized him...They were at least smarter than Greg though and no one got too sloppy".
I'm Happy to say: You don't know what the hell you are talking about! It's people like you that start stupid ass rumors. Grow up shipmate!
4/30/2012 11:56 AM
Check FB.
4/30/2012 7:00 PM
I would rather trust and go to sea with "drunk" with experience, than 6 year green earred CPO anyday. Thats just how it is. People think by taking away alcohol you solve all the problems, when you dont, then you still have sober one's beating their spouse and getting into fights. HOwever, now since their sober they do even more damage to another person in a fist fight or with a weapon. Great plan! How about we emphasize taking better care of our shipmates FIRST? My last two boats gauranteed cab fair for all sailors and neither had a DUI during a total of 9 years, so all you PC boys can eat my shorts, you probably had a DUI, while we were taking care of our sailors. Yes we got them help, but if you scare them, they just hide it and drive drunk anyway. Take care of the fellas first, and take your beatings second. I'd rather get relieved for creating a climate where i take care of people, than have no respect from my superiors or subordinates. BZ MCPO, at least you didnt avoid sea duty like most of these yahoos now-a-days.
4/30/2012 7:27 PM
As a JO, I respected every CPO more than any of my senior O's. At least most if not all of them would give you the time of day to train, take you with them, and teach. Only thing I saw the uppers do was complain, fail to provide constructive feedback or manage the schedule. Regardless of what people say about the goat locker, it always has more sea-time experience than the wardroom and does a better job training young officers by far. That new training program for officers is an even bigger waste of time and more of a joke. I'm glad I out, and have found the now civilian former CPO's to be of better quality than the average O-ganger. Not that I dislike my own, but they have the blue collar work ethic that most of the O's are missing and that counts for a whole heck of a lot.
4/30/2012 7:32 PM
@ anonymous 4/30/2012 11:56 AM
Not sure when you last sat a board, but I've been on 2 in the last 5 years and, yes, crawling in from Beale Street (and other environs) still occurs. Saw folks falling asleep in the tank when various panels were providing their "diversity" brief. Oh, and if you don't understand why some folks get selected, it's not because of a "hookup," it's because one or more commands was/were too gutless to truthfully document the individual's lack of performance, thereby leaving it to a coin flip by the board. If it isn't in the record, it doesn't get briefed.
4/30/2012 8:16 PM
I think it is funny that most of these posts make it sound like leadership starts at being selected as a khaki. When I say funny, I mean sad.
During my career, there were some First Class Petty Officers that were twice the leader their CPO was. (Even one Sonar Tech First Class) Leadership isn't a billet, it is a presence. First Classes who stand (not just qualified) ERS and Dive, those are typically your leaders. Some never make CPO due to politics, stupidity, or lack of billets.
I can tell you this - the guy who does 15 different jobs to get his ticket punched is not your leadership. I, to this day, cannot see how cleaning up a beach and feeding the homeless qualifies you to be a leader; especially when everyone knows the only reason you have done so is for advancement. I never saw those guys do it again once they got the check mark. Leadership should start with knowing your rate - at least in my opinion. When you become a CPO, you are supposed to know everything, within reason, about your rate. That is how junior personnel are supposed to learn how to do things. A CPO should then better himself by learning other rates. . . other systems . . . strive to achieve greater power - after his division is in the capable hands of the next leading First Class.
.
These were the ideals of how things were supposed to work. It is flawed, obviously, but at least attempting to steer in that direction would make a big difference. My last boat, (retired in 2000) did not create a leadership role for the CPOs, much less the First Classes. Now, that was on Trident boats (I had no choice, I fought it as long as I could) If fast attacks are not that way, I shouldn't be hearin' about the Groton mafia. . . or the Pearl mafia.
Do your job first, then worry about fuckin' other people over for you own benefit.
5/01/2012 5:51 AM
AF Salt (Anon - 4/29 10:45 AM)
Uh, thanks for your support, I think.
Actually, the reason for few comments posted at Molten Eagle for over a year now has not been lack of readership. Vigilis's blog simply has not allowed anonymous comments (like yours).
5/01/2012 7:15 AM
The transition from E-6 to E-7 is unique to the Navy - none of the other services have an equivalent initiation, change of uniforms, etc. I wonder if some of these perceived problems have to do with that process? What do you guys see as the pros/cons of having a distinct chief community?
5/01/2012 7:42 AM
Some Army thoughts that may apply to the submarine situation:
Private Jackson: "Sir... I have an opinion on this matter."
Captain Miller: "Well, by all means, share it with the squad."
Private Jackson: "Well, from my way of thinking, sir, this entire mission is a serious misallocation of valuable military resources."
5/01/2012 11:21 AM
Off Topic:
5/01/2012 2:08 PM
CNN finally getting the news of our fired CHOPs
http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/01/female-u-s-submariners-investigated-for-fraud/?hpt=hp_t2
5/01/2012 2:10 PM
In other news: saw this video from the USNA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mNvBNyNkVa8
Great pride video from the night OBL was caught. Good reminder of the important things.
5/01/2012 3:01 PM
CO _and_ COB fired from COLUMBIA.
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2012/05/navy-fires-4-leaders-in-2-separate-incidents-050112/
5/01/2012 5:51 PM
"CNN finally getting the news of our fired CHOPs"
That "news" story describes the 2 women under investigation as nuclear trained not Chops.
Course it also shows a boat that is clearly not ours
5/02/2012 12:35 PM
^^^...and that actually makes a lot more sense than a collection of female chops -- only chops -- scamming the Navy over per diem.
TSSBP.
5/02/2012 12:59 PM
A long time ago, when I was just young second class, a Master Chief retired. He told me that when he made chief he thought he could changes things, but quickly realized that change is difficult. He was convinced that once he became a senior chief, he could affect change. Unfortunately, he was still disappointed. As a Master Chief, who was well respected by the entire crew, he retired still hoping for change. The change that is needed in the submarine force is larger than the CPO mess and wardroom. I hope for the sake of our force that the new leaders of the submarine force take on a positive change. If given the chance, people will do what is right; but you have to allow them to stumble along the way in order to mature. The way we react in the submarine force has become our biggest weakness/fault. What everyone is missing is those that are being fired are a product our force. We all played a part in the development of these leaders. Perhaps not directly, but we most certainly served in the same mess or wardroom as those who developed these leaders. If you chose to blame someone, blame yourself and get to work early tomorrow and stay late mentoring that young Sailor on how to be a Sailor.
5/07/2012 9:10 AM
I served with STSCS a few years ago; I don't know the specifics of this case. What I do know is that he was and is a great leader, one who takes care of the Sailors who work for him. There are so many hypocrites out there. Can everyone honestly say that they never had a few too many drinks, or did something stupid in their lives! I know I have.. If he has a problem, I hope that he gets the help he needs. And I and many of his old shipmates will continue to support and have his back.
5/08/2012 7:25 PM
Shipmate-
It was more than drinking that got him sacked
5/11/2012 6:10 PM
Prevot got the job becasue the other COB got fired, everyone was in panic mode to find a relief and low and behold there was a qualified COB sitting at subschool, thats how he got his second chance.
5/11/2012 6:12 PM
Joe Hall STSC(ss)
I never saw a COB relieved on any boat I was on, (Sandlance, Silversides, Tunny, Tullibee, Dace, Olympia).
It was a different world then, in the 70s, the chief usually spent the days in port at the VFW, or base bar.
The only chief that I knew that was in trouble (court martial) was caught running a huge brothel in Norfolk. He was pimp!
Reduced to E-1, sent to Levenworth!
He was AKA the screaming Eagle!
5/25/2012 11:14 PM
When I was on the USS Annapolis some years back, we had a real poor command structure, and it was no secret that our skipper liked to get boozed up overseas.
The COB we had was about as bad, and that fact that he would routinely hit junior sailors to the point where bruises came up was not good for morale or readiness. We lost several sailors due to their fear of what the COB would do next. It also did not help that he liked to rifle through sailor's rack lockers and help himself to sweets, batteries, and pictures as he pleased.
Squadron simply did not care until one sailor became so depressed that he tried to drink himself to death and ended up killing a carload of civilians. Then it was acknowledged that there was an issue, but that it was "not as bad as it seemed".
Ask anyone who was onboard for the 2005-2006 deployment, especially those during "Operation Hunger Strike", and they will tell you about how abusive the COB could be, and his buddy, a 1st class A-ganger that liked to organize gang-rapes and beat-downs of new sailors.
8/06/2012 10:13 PM
Thanks for your great post.I like this very much, please write more about these,wait for your update..
Dissertationmasters.net
3/06/2013 5:32 AM
Thanks to share with us the information. I wish you good luck!Custom Thesis Writing
3/06/2013 7:15 AM
I found so many interesting in your blog especially its discussion. keep up the good work.
7/17/2013 11:14 PM
Thanks for an interesting article. After looking through different websites I finally found something worth reading. Paper Writing Services
Research Paper Writing Services
Thesis Paper Writing Services
11/19/2013 10:43 AM
Your post is very meaningful, I have learned some good things from you, thanks for the kind help. Cheap Essay Writing
Cheap Essays
Cheap Research Paper Writing
Cheap Thesis Writing
Cheap Book Report Writing
Cheap Assignment Writing
Cheap Powerpoint Presentation Service
Cheap Letter Writing
Cheap Editing Services
Cheap Proofreading Services
Cheap Proposal Services
11/19/2013 11:39 AM
Thank you,Great piece of info.
Airport Taxi
4/04/2014 12:24 PM
Nice article and such a good information.
4/07/2014 2:04 AM
Great work by the blogger this blog really help me.
4/08/2014 3:17 AM
Post a Comment
<< Home