Columbia CO, COB Canned
Breaking news coming out of Hawaii that the Commanding Officer and Chief of the Boat of USS Columbia (SSN 771) were fired today due to "shortfalls in professional performance" that led SUBRON 7 to lose confidence in their abilities to lead. Excerpts from the Navy Times article:
The commanding officer and top enlisted on a Hawaii-based attack submarine were fired Tuesday for a loss of confidence in their abilities, Submarine Force Pacific said...No specifics have been released yet, but I'm sure we'll find out the story behind the firings sooner rather than later. As always, please don't put someone's name in your comments attached to some perceived shortfall unless it's already out in the public domain; job titles should be sufficient to get your point across.
...Onboard attack submarine Columbia, Cmdr. Dennis Klein, the CO, and Master Chief Electronics Technician (SS) Don Williams, the chief of the boat, were relieved by commander of Submarine Squadron 7, Capt. James Pitts.
“The reliefs of Klein and Williams were related to shortfalls in professional performance leading to leadership’s loss of confidence in their ability to serve in positions of command authority,” said SUBPAC spokeswoman Cmdr. Christy Hagen.
Capt. Dennis Boyer and Command Master Chief (SS) Manuel Meneses, both on the squadron’s staff, have temporarily assumed duties as CO and COB, respectively. Boyer has commanded Los Angeles-class sub Miami, a SUBPAC statement said.
posted by Bubblehead at 6:47 PM
227 Comments:
Dennis Ray Boyer. There is a name from the past for me.
5/01/2012 7:30 PM
Oh man...does anyone feel this is only going to get much worse before it gets better? With all the "talk" I hear that is going around these days, one can only imagine when their number is up. Then again, it is only talk...but damn. How many more will go?
5/01/2012 7:34 PM
Officers are praying they "only" screen for COSS and XOSS. Master Chiefs will be happy as 3MCs and EDMCs. The sub force has jumped the shark on this one and joined the targets. Prediction: Next relief(s) w/in the next 10 days. Time for fun in Guam. Yeah, you guys on the CoCC know what's coming.
5/01/2012 7:56 PM
Serving as a Chief of the Boat has been a goal of mine for over ten years, but each day that goes by I feel less and less enthused about it. Tempting to just call it a day once I hit 20, the job is not getting any more appealing as time goes on.
5/01/2012 8:10 PM
Heard about the CoCC today. It sounds like bad times. I bet it will be soon over there.
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MM1/SS
5/01/2012 8:20 PM
Who in the hell would want to be a COB, I have done two tours and have the scars to prove it. I look at the 9579's falling like flies. The problem is the 9580's are all looking for their next job.
Most of those guys didn't even do a full COB tour. My 2cents and glad I am retired.
5/01/2012 8:26 PM
Are we sure we are talking about CoCC and not CBA? Damn...not even five minutes and another issue. Yikes! Guess I will hear soon too.
5/01/2012 8:27 PM
Major issues aft from what I was told. I was proud to serve on that boat but my tour didn't overlap with this CO or COB Williams. Many former shipmates have been making statements on social media over the recent past about how miserable things have been there. Hope this will give them a fresh start.
5/01/2012 8:34 PM
In Enduring Freedom this ship did great things at the tip of the spear. It's a shame to see it fall from grace from the 2004-2006 time frame where no one touched the USS Columbia or her commanding officer. Maybe that's why he is commodore of sq 6 now?
5/01/2012 8:42 PM
On the officer side the problem is that most of the good guys got out after their JO tour. This left only the DB's in and you have t promote somebody.
On the CPO side, well, it's just a soup sandwhich.
Glad to be retired!
Good luck to those still in and keep fighting.
5/01/2012 9:14 PM
Glad to be retired!
If you stayed in long enough to retire, are you one of the DBs or part of the soup sandwich?
5/01/2012 9:19 PM
"If you stayed in long enough to retire, are you one of the DBs or part of the soup sandwich?"
Definitely part of the soup sandwich. A person can only fight the system so much, lose advancement chances and then it's time to leave.
And yes, I have to admit I probably contributed to the mess.
5/01/2012 9:31 PM
Denis Boyer is the next submarine legend. Greatest guy I've ever known.
Giddy up!
5/01/2012 9:33 PM
I really can't wait to hear the whole story. The on the record and off the record actual reason hopefully.
5/01/2012 9:40 PM
I know there was a recent 5x public mast on the pier for tagout problems, followed by restricting the crew to the boat until they went to sea.
That is probably just the tip of the iceberg for Columbia.
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MM1/SS
5/01/2012 9:57 PM
Perhaps violating some very inviolable time requirements for underway preps, and not realizing it until you're at sea might have been a major contributor.
5/01/2012 10:05 PM
From keeping in touch with those previously on board and currently there, this seems to be the climax of a train wreck that started when the boat came out of shipyard a couple years ago. The boat went from great to the dumps, and the wrong combination of leadership was sent to the boat to turn the situation around. Could happen to any boat, and I wouldn't be surprised if more follow (word on the street other boats have similar or worse issues).
The important thing is that it gets turned around, and CAPT Boyer seems like the man that can do it. Wish him the best of luck. Then again, with the way the Navy is going, I have no idea what is going to cut it anymore. I have a feeling the kinder, gentler, decathlon PFA style Navy will take issue with what is needed to fix today's problems...hence, they only get worse.
5/01/2012 11:22 PM
"Could happen to any boat, and I wouldn't be surprised if more follow (word on the street other boats have similar or worse issues)."
Spoken Cheyenne?
5/02/2012 12:38 AM
The issue with CBA is that they got caught with their pants down (inviolable time requirement violated and discovered u/w) and then, every time squadron looked at them, it got worse. Almost three weeks of not being allowed to do anything without a squadron monitor, and they still attempted to conduct evolutions without a procedure.
What is going on with the CoCC?
5/02/2012 12:55 AM
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
5/02/2012 1:05 AM
Exactly, this is a tough job and anyone who makes it a career desires a lot of credit.
5/02/2012 1:08 AM
Anon @0105...
Ah, the Man in the Arena (spoken Shift Engineer's Creed from the 626). Glad to see that busted out in the midst of this...this job ain't getting easier anytime soon.
BT
Got friends on the CoCC...what is going on over there? Know a fella on CHEYENNE too. Is it just me, or should CSS-7 start worrying his neck too?
5/02/2012 1:36 AM
What idiot still thinks CCC is in Guam?
@Anon 5/1 7:56 you are a sad puppy if you stay in 'dreaming' of screening SS. But then again, it's a tough job. Glad you decided to sit this one out.
The grown ups are talking.
5/02/2012 3:35 AM
"only" doing XOSS/COSS means a JO & DH tour. From where I sit (recently rotated to JO shore duty) that seems very reasonable given the pain of DH. No amount of COPAY can make it worthwhile. Only inducement is the thought (fantasy) that I'm mean and tough enough to survive DH, maybe make things a little better for someone who works for me, and pray that I will remember enough about how things are now to un-f*ck them when I have some real pull & haven't had my perspective totally distorted by then.
5/02/2012 5:01 AM
Don't know what happened here at all.
I will have to say that this is the current NR management's universal management solution.
Boat has issue.
NR breaks out 2500 mile screwdriver tells CO "one more time and you're gone" which by the way is a huge motivational speech (sarcasm generously applied)
CO turns screwdriver on crew, life becomes miserable for all.
Situation attually becomes worse.
2500 mile screwdriver tweaked again shearing the head of the screw.
Repeat
5/02/2012 5:07 AM
"The Man in the Arena" is the last refuge of the screw-up.
5/02/2012 5:19 AM
"'The Man in the Arena' is the last refuge of the screw-up."
Really? I would say it was a very important quote from a famous President from our country. I guess we should all stop trying to do the difficult thing and settle for the easy one instead.
Anyone wanna run for Congress. You can f@$% up all you want there and get a nice paycheck for it. Let's play it safe and hope someone else does the hard work for us.
Anyone could easily find themselves in a similar situation, so we should all be careful about who we label a "screw up." They way be writing you laws and telling you how much in taxes you will now pay. Just sayin', shipmate.
5/02/2012 5:38 AM
word on the street is a star will fall
5/02/2012 6:07 AM
I think this is a reality show. You will find out one day that FOX is running "Hell's Submarine", a show where Chef Gordon Ramsey, Simon Cowell, Sharon Osborne and Anne Robinson (bitch from Weakest Link) eliminate contestants weekly for a position to run a U.S.Submarine. (USS Hilary Clinton)
5/02/2012 6:24 AM
Which star? That would be unusual.
5/02/2012 6:28 AM
Would someone please leave a comment to explain why CHEYENNE and CoCC were mentioned? Don't leave us hangin' like that. Even a rumor would be fine, as long as you caveat it as being a rumor vice first-hand knowledge. Pls be specific, without getting anyone in trouble.
BTW, anon@1:36 AM, good question. Do commodores get held accountable for performance (or at least performance trends) of COs and ships in their squadrons? Clearly some standard level of accountability should exist, but how much? Are squadron staffs (and commodores in particular) being held to that standard?
5/02/2012 6:52 AM
Does anyone have any idea why "what seems to be an increased rate of firings?". One would think (been retired for 14 years) that with the optempo being fairly high (as near as I can tell)there would be less time for oversight from on-high. That should lead to boats being able to focus on their own priorities and get the job done. Perhaps the priority focus is out of alignment...or we have dialed up the standards to such a zero defect mentality that there is no margin for error.
Just wondering if there is any over-arching connection out there or are the firings all independent events...
5/02/2012 7:09 AM
Ok, someone help me with the meaning of CBA...
5/02/2012 7:23 AM
....zero defect mentality that there is no margin for error.
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Bingo! Rushed firings = rushed releifs = setting up the new guy to fall as well.
5/02/2012 7:31 AM
CBA = Columbia
5/02/2012 7:45 AM
Star= Not the little Bug in the hat that sings to the boy with the wood.
5/02/2012 7:55 AM
Yep, it the bane of many complex technologies and organizations. You seemingly do great deeds, but all it does is make my shallow and isolated. The complexity drives you to be isolated.
Part of your brain discriminates, it's the ability to pick out the big shit from the little shit. We usually get big bucks to do this right. On the other side of too much discrimination it always lends to numbing. The enemy of everything is opaqueness in the system.
All this is, is neurotransmitters and brain circuitry....
5/02/2012 7:58 AM
I don't remember these firings being posted on my watch. But it started to change for me in about 75-6. I ran to the army with 11 in rather than stay and get crucified. Did 20 in the Army and then finally had enough. Missed boats but they sure have changed since my day.
5/02/2012 8:10 AM
Give the EDMC a "SEA cookie" and make him part of the Command Team. This will help out the COB and make it less lonely at the top. Maybe it will remind the COB that he is not above the regulations and help keep him and the crew on track. Yes, on most Boats the EDMC already does this. But, lets make it official so it has to happen on the boats where the COB thinks the CPO Mess is a one man show (i.e. the COB). The COB that takes credit for a great CPO mess is mistaken: but so is the COB that takes blame for a failed CPO Mess. It takes all the CPOs onboard to make the mess and they are all equally at fault or equally credited with the success (or lack there of) of the mess and probably the boat as well.
5/02/2012 8:58 AM
You can't really have 2 "COBs". It would work 80% - 90% of the time, but on those rare occasions where a decision is needed for the whole boat, half of the crew would be confused. Also, as likely as you are to do things properly and professionally, that cannot be said for every EDMC and/or COB.
I could see an EDMC getting pissed at the COB and undermining his authority aft. . . or vice versa forward. Who is to blame? Which is the hero?
Good idea, and should be performed in practice, but officially there is enough command structure.
5/02/2012 9:49 AM
zzz looks like just 10 days or so between firings? I went 20 years (78-99) and only recall one guy getting fired, and that (I think) was for an extramarital affair that was prejudicial to good order and discipline.
5/02/2012 10:18 AM
Maybe the ACOB or the COBRA??
5/02/2012 10:22 AM
You could call him ChupaCOBra, and the nucs would still bitch about having to do something the real COB said.
The coners would, likewise, piss and moan if told to clean the engine room by the ChupaCOBra.
5/02/2012 10:58 AM
The EDMC should do his G.D. job and assist the COB in running the ship and training the CPO quarters regardless of a cookie. If you (or they) think a "Cookie" is going to make a better leader, you are as mistaken as all of these failed COB's and CMC. Leadership makes a good leader, not a G.D. school and not a stupid medallion. The upper COC fell down, and couldn't get up.
5/02/2012 11:35 AM
You missed the point! The relationship between the COB and the EDMC is great on most boats. The EDMC does assist and all is well. But, then there are some (probably only a few and maybe just the ones that are getting fired) where the COB doesn't want advise or help from the EDMC or anyone else in the mess for that matter. The cookie was kind a joke; I don't think most EDMC would want one anyway. But, if we made him part of the Command Team not an equal to the COB; because we all agree there can only be one COB.
5/02/2012 11:54 AM
Hey Jack...
If the COB did his G.D. Job he probably wouldn't have been fired.
5/02/2012 11:55 AM
If the EDMC is not part of the command team (CO/XO/COB/EDMC) the command (CO) is doing a disservice by not capitalizing on experience. Likewise, if the EDMC is burying himself in the ER and not making boat wide contributions he is not upholding his side of the bargain. If the EDMC and COB do not work together => broken quarters. Disagreements should be settled by the COB as the senior by position. If the EDMC has a huge issue and wants to be 'the man' he can apply to be a COB. COB cannot apply to be an EDMC (normally) not a nuke.
However, this blog is about a CO/COB being relieved for ?? Meanwhile others insinuate a fleet wide systemic problem with other boats that cannot get their heads out of their asses. Coming out of the yards is tough, no matter who it is. Their are no winners, only survivors. Their is no praise for those that survive, only crucifixions for those that do not. I know...I've done it three times...got scars...they do heal but the wounds from the "help" are very deep.
Ranting Lunatic
5/02/2012 12:34 PM
I recall a time when all you got was one COB board, no second chances. I see COB's that failed boards 7-8 years ago and are now serving COBs. A strong CPO Mess will make up for a week wardroom. Epic fail from the most junior CPO to the Chief of the Boat.
5/02/2012 12:59 PM
Part of the problem is the up and out and the acceleration through the ranks routinely; CPO's by 7-8 years, COB shows up as E-8; JO's with 24 month sea tours. I understand the navy needs to save money, but a few good COBs do second or third tours, may not be the worst of things. I had a second tour EDMC (reported to boat as MCPO) and he was one of the greatest things since sliced bread. Just look at the XO/CO. Used to have O-6's routinely CO SSN's and O-5 XO's...and less firings. Spend more money making better sailors and more experienced sailors and get a better product. Some individuals try to change things for the better, but then their PRD quickly comes around to take them away.
5/02/2012 1:42 PM
it would cost the navy too much to fail people on COB boards.
the same thing said about prototype and nuc school, too much money goes into a sailor to fail them. sometimes garbage in, garbage out.
5/02/2012 1:44 PM
Anon @ 1:44: What does it cost the Navy to fail people at a COB board? The Navy is full of good leaders. It is the (one of many) area CMCs jobs to find the good ones.
I am sick and tired of putting the blame on the 7 or 8 year Chief. My experience (as an 8 year Chief) is that those guys are the hard chargers you want. It is the 18/19year Chief with a leg out the door that ends up casing more problems.
Anon @ 1:42: If you had a second tour EDMC, he most likely made Chief at around the 8 or 9 year point?
5/02/2012 1:53 PM
"In Enduring Freedom this ship did great things at the tip of the spear." Have to disagree a little bit with this thought. Submarines have not been at the tip of the spear in a long time. That's the problem. Slinging TLAMs in a non threat area does not put you on the tip. ISR? Not a huge task. Can be accomplished by many different platforms. And I concede the fact that we are the "Silent" service and we don't know what every boat is doing. Maybe some really good stuff. But come on, if we were truly relevant, people would not have time to worry so much about the b.s. Instead, the crews seem to feel this way and when you don't feel important, nothing you do is important. So standards slip. We have been boiling water for a long time back aft, it isn't very hard. Tag outs and procedures? Really? Sad thought, but I think the problems are greater than a few fucked up COBs and some shitty O hangers. We've always had them and seemed to do pretty well . Sad times.
5/02/2012 1:58 PM
@5:38
I'm just saying that most of the times I see someone cite TR's essay, he's doing it to fend off well-deserved criticism. It's used today as nothing more than a cynical way of saying that nobody should criticize anyone who means well or tries hard, or even is just serving in a post.
Well, wrong is wrong no matter who calls you out on it. In this case the person calling out the CO is someone who completed a CO tour of his own, so it's especially useless to quote TR.
5/02/2012 2:16 PM
^^^Dear Rubber Ducky...er..."Anon" at 1:58PM
Hmmm...where've we heard all this before:
* "Submarines have not been at the tip of the spear in a long time"
* "Slinging TLAMs in a non threat area does not put you on the tip"
* "ISR? Not a huge task. Can be accomplished by many different platforms."
* "...boiling water...isn't very hard"
* "Blah, bla-blah, bla-blah"
Should've stopped at "I concede the fact that we are the "Silent" service and we don't know what every boat is doing", Duck...er, uhm..."Anon."
Just sayin'.
5/02/2012 2:19 PM
Anon 1:58 might be on to something. But maybe something more. With so many young Chiefs and young Officers we lose a lot of our history. Think about this, when I was on my first boat back in the 80's, my Chief was god like in his technical knowledge. Had great sea stories and he somehow used these to instill some pride in yourself. It was the usual sort of tales but he connected them with being a great sailor. You wanted to be like him, knowing shit, being shit hot, taking care of your own. Sure he was a drunk, but you would never it know it once he took the watch or was chewing your ass out. And he wouldn't let someone else chew you out either. Now what do we have. Young Chiefs who are not seasoned. What do they have to pass on? Some bullshit initiation ceremony? Sorry induction. System knowledge? No. Good operational stories? No. But got a couple ORSE's under is belt.
5/02/2012 2:27 PM
^^^Perhaps. But the thing that irks me about "here's the way it is...now" prognosticators is their lack of foresight.
Nuclear powered submarines have done phenomenal things for their country over time. That there is perhaps something of a lull right now doesn't mean that they won't be absolutely essential again...and perhaps sooner than anyone would prefer.
Peace is good. We didn't get here through lack of foresight, and it won't do us any credit to overly focus on the present situation, but rather anticipate our likely future...and how to get there.
IMHO, the nuclear submarine is absolutely a defensive weapon of more-more value in the future than the past.
As we unwind the land wars of the Middle East, watch and see what happens next, and where the most value will be. One thing's for certain: it won't be the skimmers.
5/02/2012 2:50 PM
The real reason behind the dual CO/COB firing was supposed to remain classified for 50 years...but the story is starting to break, and so it's time to examine this in the Cold Light of Day.
Reason (TS/NOKETCHUP): both the CO and the COB "liked" a verboten Facebook page, Dogs Against Being Eaten By Obama
So...who's laughing now?
5/02/2012 3:59 PM
So...who's laughing now?
With jokes like that, no one.
5/02/2012 4:47 PM
^^^Democrat...i.e., no sense of humor.
[Captcha on this one: "firedyi donally". A little behind the times, CSF-wise, but impressive.]
5/02/2012 5:21 PM
I see many comments on the issue of the EDMC being part of the command team...The EDMC is a department Chief just like the NODEA, the SUPDEA, and the CSDEA, no difference. The command team is the CO/XO/COB...end of discussion. In reality the entire wardroom, CPO quarters and the crew are part of the "Command Team".
Big ticket item here is that CBA did not incorporate recommendations from CSS7 to get well. Too many people on IO and not following the simple stuff like the Navy CORE Values, the Sailors Creed, and the best motto of all "not on my watch"
5/02/2012 6:26 PM
This is not a "just out of the yards" problem. This ship just returned from a HIGHLY successful WESTPAC and did great things. I am very sad for these two men and for the hell that this crew has been through and will face over the coming weeks/months. We will soon reach a point where nobody will want to reach Command At Sea or Chief of the Boat if things continue down this path.
5/02/2012 6:50 PM
The UNHEALTHY SUBMARINE AGENDA FOR SIMPLETONS: who have not seen the pattern yet...
In order to assure the success of the women in subs experiment (CNN headline May 1: "2 of first female U.S. Navy submariners investigated for fraud") the Navy must generate statistics for eventual comparisons that evidence even greater historical failings of male submarine leaders. Yes, the guys misbehaved. Why is TOLERANCE so low all of a sudden?
The agenda will obviously be terrible for submarine officer morale, so both recruiting and retention will suffer apace. Now, ask yourselves if liberals politicians really want to eviscerate the world's only elite submarine servive further, or are they simply ambivalent?
5/02/2012 6:56 PM
1.I am loving that all these guys are going down in flames. Good guys as well as dirt bags Big Navy is clearing house and nobody is safe. Check your ego at the brow and follow the rules, no matter if you believe in them or not you took an oath now uphold those orders E-1 to E-9 and O-1 to O-10.
2.Age has nothing to do with leadership you either have it or you don’t. Just as I was getting comfortable in my job they bumped me up with a whole new set of responsibilities. Your job as a sailor is to help a “brother” out. Give them the support network you promised them at transition.
3.You bitch at me for making CPO in 8 and then call me a quitter for going LDO, when it was you “brother” who told me I will never make 8 because I only have one sea tour and I need to pay my dues. F-U and salute me when you see my bars “brother” hope you don’t get fired!
5/02/2012 6:57 PM
Vaginus is such a loon.
5/02/2012 7:11 PM
"ISR? Not a huge task."
Ask me how I know you're a boomer guy.
5/02/2012 7:37 PM
For the comment "I see many comments on the issue of the EDMC being part of the command team...The EDMC is a department Chief just like the NODEA, the SUPDEA, and the CSDEA, no difference." Good luck with that, especially today. BTW, EDMC is billeted, in the SSORM to assist the COB, and the other guys are just there so we can laugh at them in the ops brief...
5/02/2012 7:40 PM
"The EDMC is a department Chief just like the NODEA, the SUPDEA, and the CSDEA, no difference"
Probably should keep the 'playing pretend' stuff for the Renaissance Faires.
5/02/2012 7:40 PM
Served with Mr. Klein when he was a J.O. He is a fine person and I wish him well.
5/02/2012 7:45 PM
anon@2:27,
I couldn't agree with you more. As an E-1 to O-5. I would never have made it that far if it were not for a few great Chief Petty Officers and Officers along the way who didn't (seem to) care about making the next grade, but did and then some. They were tough, and fair and when we couldn't play by the rules we did so with the Chief AND the Div-O/Dept Head top cover. I was never intimidated or feared them but I knew that you didn't go into the goat locker or wardroom without being sure you were invited. The culture is different as hinted at by anon 1:58but he is dead wrong on some of his points. The culture of the submarine force IS different. Slinging TLAMs and ISR is at the pointy edge of the spear. If you think there is only glory and pride in going head to head with the enemy, you are sorely mistaken. The submarine force is one of the MOST relevant warfighting capabilities we have, hence the ability to maintain 2SSN production rate in these "austere times" it may have lost its way in trying to be all things to all people to maintain relevance and in doing so, does not have the ability to focus on the mission with so many distractors. Give it another 10 years when the Russians or the Chinese outnumber us 2 to 1 then we will focus again.
5/02/2012 7:45 PM
Check you ego at the brow Mr. 4-Stop? I tripped and fell down on your ego tripping post. "F-U and salute me"? Really? Is this what you are telling folks about OUR LDO community? I would say you lost your roots, but its obvious you never laid any in ANY CPO Mess. ETCS-2-LDO
5/02/2012 7:47 PM
F-U and salute me when you see my bars “brother” hope you don’t get fired!
Ha. You had to be an O4 or above to warrant a salute out of me. Some former asslick LDO? Not a chance.
5/02/2012 7:48 PM
"Big ticket item here is that CBA did not incorporate recommendations from CSS7 to get well." - CMDCM?
Compared to other LEGITIMATE reasons that CO/COB's are getting fired these days, this sounds weak. I'm sure squadron was almost living on the boat ("helping") before things got to this point, so did that make things better or worse?
5/02/2012 8:10 PM
Recommendation...if you have no idea what the basis of the firing is, try to act like a grown up and stop spreading rumors. A lot of you sound like a bunch of high school girls trying to get dirt on someone else to make boring life seem more exciting. Let's act like adults, quit shit talking, and try to improve the leadership issues we are having more and more. Do your part or step to the side. For those of you plan to go back to boat and want to keep complaining about the problems, do us all a favor and just get out. You will make advancement for those of us that care just that mush better...its a win, win.
5/02/2012 9:21 PM
Hahaha, 4-stop spews yet again. I've been telling you people this former FT was a festering douche-bag. I'm actually glad to hear he moved along to LDO and to where he will fit in nicely, the Wardroom.
Slim bags like him will slither up the LDO ranks fairly easily, but will literally be hated by all those that have the misfortune for serving with him.
Anyone know who this guy is?
5/02/2012 11:19 PM
5/02/2012 9:21 PM said: "Let's act like adults, quit shit talking, and try to improve the leadership issues we are having more and more. Do your part or step to the side".....
I'm guessing most of us here are retired, so the best that we can do for you active duty folks is offer our moral support. Unfortunately, I myself have no morals to give, but I'll think well of you nonetheless.
5/02/2012 11:29 PM
Regardless of how they got to this point, I'd like to put some perspective to this, the careers of both these men good or bad are ruined.
The CO will never make CAPT and will be shuffled off to DC or some other no where position until he decides he has had enough.
The COB will be DQ'd, have his dolphins removed, have all his submarine NECs removed, and will be required to submit a force conversion package. Now with the current manning climate he will most likely not get selected for conversion and then will be directed to be separated.
Hopefully he's FLTRES eligible otherwise your talking 14-18 years down the drain. OM
5/03/2012 12:59 AM
Things are the same on all boats on the waterfront. Truth is we don't care anymore. The only goal through the day is to not get chewed out by squadron. Squadrons are going down to boats and picking out the smallest details to blow out of proportion just to justify their job sitting up in the building. The Columbia doesn't have major problems, hey have the same issues as EVERY submarine on the water front. The only good time for a boat now is on deployment away from a bickering squadron who is just out to prove something. "oh look at me I'm sqd 1 let me show this boat how much better I am than sqd 7 or old sqd 3". And vice versa. No matter what they say they are never here to help. NSSC "NOT supporting submarine center" is also no help. Leave the boat be, men with dolphins run these boats and can take care of them with out the meddling hands of outside agency. Not even going to start on NRRO those sorry bastards, enough said. Good luck to the other boats out there, any one of them could be next.
5/03/2012 1:43 AM
soft serve ice cream machine
Hi, Poor man. He could have done any better. He needs to refresh himself.
5/03/2012 3:12 AM
As you read above, there are issues here in SUBPAC. There are a few of us out here who now are being told "canvass your guys we need to start to accelerate the COB quals" on our staffs. Accelerate, that's how we ended up like this in the first place. That charge card is a bunch of crap anyhow, let me got to fleet and family and get it done.I'm not pointing fingers, but I'm amazed that we have a 30 year CMC who is bucking for another job to stay past 30...relieve another. I respect the guy but, is there some underlying agenda here? Everyone here is a little gun shy, why would they step and get their ass handed to them, when they can retire in-rate with no ulcer?
5/03/2012 3:24 AM
Anon @5/02/2012 2:19 PM:
Haven't posted here in quite awhile. When I do, it's never as 'anon.' For those who do, suggest stop by a billiards store. They sell balls.
5/03/2012 4:20 AM
Let me guess at the reason:
COLUMBIA didn't have a Plan of Action and Milestones (POA&M) with milestones, metrics, benchmarks and sufficient (100%) Command monitoring of every evolution, including flushing the shitter, to answer the first squadron monitor comment.
Then the snowball builds...Most ships have to have a POA&M just to track all the POA&Ms they have running.
Not the way to run a railroad, much less a submarine force, but that is the leadership style of commodores over the past 4-5 years.
5/03/2012 4:40 AM
Long time reader...first time poster.
I suspect there is well over a thousand years of submarine experience reading/posting here. We should be able to tap into that experience base to share ideas on bettering our force for the next generation. Does anyone have tangible ideas/advice for the next group of PCOBs that could help them be successful?
24 years active service and counting.
5/03/2012 5:10 AM
Anon at 5:10am...
Yes. Remove the "waterfront" selection board from the final part of the process. They should be in there, but only to recommend the potential PCOB to go before a board that does not include his friends/acquaintances/drinking buddies.
And then while we are at it, how about the CMC's/COB's and other standard setters in the Groton area stop making fun of and undermining Navy and DOD policy and start living what you preach. The Groton area dining-in way back in February was a shining example. The wearing of pink bow-ties in NWU's (out in town at the Groton Motor Inn and Suites) to make fun of allowing gays in the military and women on submarines. One only has to look at the Submarine base CMC and the rest of his cronies for that little example setting fiasco.
5/03/2012 5:26 AM
Anon at 5:26am...
That really happened? wow...
We have Khakis setting THAT example? But hey, they are leading from the front while everyone is are quiters... *rolls eyes*
I would be disappointed in my son if he had done that. And he isn't in high school yet. sad.
5/03/2012 6:48 AM
anon at 5:10 if you have a problem with me please call 860 625-9648 standing by so man up and call!
5/03/2012 6:54 AM
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.. Now Salute me and get my coffee.
5/03/2012 7:00 AM
I have to preface my statements with; my last command, before I retired, was a Trident. I fought going to one forever, but, alas, I was finally screwed.
Anyhoo. . . the one thing that I noticed, then, was how little the guys were taught coming to the boat. (Rate-wise) They were all being trained as an "operator" for a few weeks, and sent to the fleet. After 6 years on the boat, they could go back to school to become a technician.
Now we are talking about 8 year "chiefs". That means that after roughly 6 1/2 years in the Navy, a man will finally finish his training - proper training - as a technician, then he makes chief in 8.
And! . . By now he is probably on shore duty.
When I came in, I went to school for the first 1 1/2 years of my career. When I went to the boat, I was a NUB, but a NUB with a little knowledge of my rate, my boat, and the chain of command. By my 8 year point, I had been to every advanced school for my NavCenter equipment, advanced schools for some of the other equipment that I used, and all of the extra shit a NavET was saddled with. (ESM, Radar, etc.) And I was qualified COW.
I wouldn't think that I could feel all that comfortable as a CPO who doesn't know shit from Shinola about how a NavCenter is put together.
That was my Trident and NavET experience. What about A-gang or nucMM? Does the system send you to the boat with a better understanding of your job than being just a "striker" in your rate? Can you get advanced school quicker?
I truly believe that a great leader is forged through pride in his work. Pride starts with knowledge. Knowledge isn't hand-me-down information about a system that some asshole thinks is right. Knowledge is real formalized training. Once the foundation is laid, then advancement can progress, which will lead to . . . leadership.
I think.
5/03/2012 7:28 AM
Well said......
5/03/2012 8:17 AM
Dardar at 7:28
Good point. When I got to my first boat I went through "A" and "C" school. I arrived as a tech and was surrounded by techs with multiple levels of experience. We could bounce ideas off each other and feed off each other’s knowledge. By the time I left that boat I was a supertech. I used that knowledge to instruct on shore duty, further cementing my knowledge. By the time I made Chief on my second boat I could and did fix anything while passing my knowledge on.
Now, a boat is lucky if they have one tech in Radio (for example). Often times that tech is a Chief or senior first who just went to school. He has nobody to rely on and being the tech must attempt to repair the gear.
It is a downward spiral that has led to a serious knowledge drain in the fleet and an overreliance on calling in someone to fix the gear.
5/03/2012 10:32 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^
If true, our industrial base must be in VERY GOOD $$ shape!
5/03/2012 10:50 AM
What does it say about the Commodores who should be mentoring these CO's? Have they failed? What is the submarine force coming to? A CO keeps his job after his COB is having sex with a middy underway, but this CO is fired. It seems the submarine force has different standards depending on the pedigree of the CO. I hope the submarine force takes a long hard look at itself. No powerpoints needed, just simple old fashion leadership. People make mistakes and they are better for those mistakes.
In my many years in the submarine force, I have seen the meanest of COs keep their job because they have mission success. However, retention suffers and the crew is miserable. What I am trying to say is: The CO gave nothing back to the force he took so much from. We need real leaders in CO positions. We don't teach leadership in the Submarine Force. We teach how to follow guidance and complete taskers from higher authority. I am sure this firing was vetted through TYCOM and Fleet. The Commodore can't fire a CO without permission. Who are we kidding? True leadership is gone in the submarine force. Take a look at your CO today and ask yourself: "would you want to go to war with this man?" If the answer is no, you get my point.
5/03/2012 10:52 AM
There has been some great dialogue here, but I would add one caveat.
Since most of us only know about 10% of what actually happened in these cases, trying to compare them for equity seems pointless. Unless you're directly involved you're only basing this info on gossip or the minimal Navy Times information.
5/03/2012 11:39 AM
I agree with anon 10:52. In my entire career, there was only one CO who was worth a lick of salt when it came to war...CDR Berkout on the Ashville. First CO ever to successfully put 4 torpedoes in the water at the same time and brought home the bacon on deployment. Crap he even shot waterslugs during ORSE!
5/03/2012 12:19 PM
In my days on the Baton Rouge, when the command had a ship's picnic, we junior guys would hold an anti-Baton-Rouge party in the barracks at the same time. Almost all single guys were there, as well as a great majority of the married ones. The command really hated us for this, but our COB loved it. He said it was great for building a team. Even though we had a screamer CO, and command climate was extremely low, the junior personnel loved it...because our COB and Chiefs took up for us. Even a few of our JO's wished us all well. A collar device does not make you a leader...being in the trenches with your troops, and giving a shit does. If you are not one of these types people, sure you will get saluted, but you will never earn respect, or have anyone help you out when you really need it. Would I have gone to war with this CO? Yes...I would have hated it, but if my COB wanted us to, we all would have no quarrels. This is an example of what a COB should instill. This is also a trait the submarine force is losing fast.
-ret ETC(SS) 2004
5/03/2012 12:57 PM
On Dardar's thoughts,
Another factor compounding the crews knowledge, is the amount of technology and innovative system changes to modern submarines. How many ETs can troubleshoot a circuit card/ Heck, there is barely any seawater in the boat anymore (zinc packages you MMs!). Low maintenance and Off-the-shelf technology cuts down the manpower requirements but the unintended consequences are a crew that doesn't have to know the systems as deep anymore. Pull the card swap it and move on. That and privatizing the IMFs also tends to further remove the crew from the systems.
5/03/2012 3:59 PM
Someone this morning said:
"It seems the submarine force has different standards depending on the pedigree of the CO".
You think??? Look at TRE & ORSE grades. If you have a CO deemed on the fast track; suddenly your inspection grades go through the roof. If you don't; your boat sucks. If you honestly think the inspection grades are pre-determined (unless something strange happens during the inspection) prior to the inspection team getting to the boat; you need to open your eyes. So why wouldn't the standards be different depending on the pedigree or fast track CO when the shit hits the fan?
5/03/2012 3:59 PM
"Admiral Rickover wrote me a few days ago describing the ceremony of the commissioning of a new Polaris submarine, the Andrew Jackson. He said to each captain of a new submarine he gives a plaque which contains an old Breton prayer which was said by fishermen from there for hundreds of years, and the prayer says:
"O God, the sea is so great and my boat is so small."
-- President John F. Kennedy, May 23, 1963
(Also: See the plaque Rickover gave Kennedy here.)
P.S. I wonder if today's submarine commanders still receive such a plaque from NAVSEA-08? If not, then in the famous words of the Admiral, "Why Not?"
5/03/2012 4:27 PM
P.P.S. These plaques are available on Amazon.com.
(Disclaimer: no compensation in my direction for this whatsoever.)
5/03/2012 4:49 PM
Some thought from a recently retired PH guy, who still works with the subs here.
1. Chiefs are getting promoted very quickly. Good and Bad. Good for moral, bad in that they barely have time to become system experts, let alone know how to accomplish everything a Chief should know including working with, in, and around a Chiefs quarters on a daily basis. So now you have such a varied level of knowledge that a lot of times, the COB doesn't have a senior guy in the Chiefs quarters to help him. (Yes I hear the screaming from the EDMCs, but he has his own issues and even then its only two.)
2. Co's get roughtly two years. If they want to continue up the ladder they have to prove themselves in two years and usually one deployment. Hence the constat drive by them to have their crew at 100%, 100% of the time.
3. COB's have had their postions change so drastically in the past 5-6 years that the job doesn't seem to be fun anymore. Gone are the days where all you had to do is lead the Chiefs to run the boat. Now its Lead the Chiefs, and then get with the XO to make sure Urinaysis, PT, PTS, name the program is running perfectly, and oh yea make sure no one is doing anything that is outside the alcohol, tabacco, or just being plain silly being squids policy.
4. One of the key things that I have seen, is that the more successful boats have one of two Senoir chiefs, other than the COB EDMC, to assist in the mentoring of the Chiefs quarters. Nowadays, the second you make Senior you are off to the COB pipeline.
In the end, I don't think its one thing, but a miriad of several things that have put the force where it is. And trust me, it's one of those things that everyone knows about, but no one has the 100% answer to fix it.
5/03/2012 4:50 PM
The fix is a bound to put on several PowerPoint slides. F the nuclear Navy. Leaders or engineers; pick one. They have proven over and over again only a few can be both.
5/03/2012 5:42 PM
Sub base cmc who posted your number which base are you on?
5/03/2012 6:10 PM
anon at 5:10 if you have a problem with me please call 860 625-9648 standing by so man up and call!
5/03/2012 6:54 AM
He's not going to call, the mafia here would shred him to pieces, his family and first born. LOL! CMC don't be upset at the truth. Perception is everything.
5/03/2012 6:18 PM
The Groton base CMC is probably busy. A whole mess of MA's on base are involved in some sort of drug mess. Two were pulled over by Groton Police and NCIS is investigating. With each string pulled it gets deeper. Upwards of 14 people. Initially the story was on the 5 oclock news and is on WTNH's website.
5/03/2012 6:39 PM
Let's get a couple things straight here.
1. We are in a terrible spot with COB qualifications. The chargebook the nubs have to complete to be a COB now has them going to Fleet and Family for signatures. There, they learn where to send the problem child when the Navy needs to fix their problems. It reminds me of the new Submarine qual card, in which a nub is a hot runner because he watched all 32 SOBT videos.
2. Heres the loop/scenario, hot-fill on any boat...We grab the first guy who is close(usually on a Squadron staff)we jam him through the silly qual card, have him go to a board he has already passed(slated for the hot-fill). This guy is not a 24 year seasoned warrior, usually he is the 16 year golden boy who raised his hand for every collateral duty to make Senior. He gets out there the CO knows his pedigree, the Chiefs are all older than him, he fails! Oh another hot fill...see where I'm going with this. Very few survive this. Where do you think the Annapolis COB came from and how he got qualified so quick by the FORCM in Pearl. How can the COB mentor anyone when second classes have more sea time than him. Take a look around and you tell me, who wants to go on and do a second tour if they survived the first. We have MCPOs(post tour COBs) stashed all over in Submarine School here in Groton. They're not stupid, 30 year retirement looks good with no stress. Someone said it here in the goat locker this week, it won't be long before we have a non-qual Senior Chief taking a boat to sea. If he has the experience and the respect we might be better off.
One and Done!
5/03/2012 6:43 PM
"The Groton base CMC is probably busy"
HAHAHAHA... What hole? Front Nine?
5/03/2012 6:46 PM
The real issue as I see it, is creeping socialism. We've screwed up the public schools, now it's the military were going after. Take away all the old time effective discipline tactics and standards and force more social experiments on the crews. Then mix the real mission with as much Reactor Red tape and inspections of the Nth level minutua that have little or nothing to do with the mission, and you get everyone looking in the wrong direction - loosing focus on real objectives and frustrated to not care much.
The sailors would do what ever is expected of them - leadership (mostly above the C.O. actually) is just asking the wrong stuff, and then they sacrafice a C.O. and a COB who went after the wrong shinny object distraction and then got cought missing the important stuff.
5/03/2012 7:12 PM
Don't shoot the messenger here:
Seems like Trident sailors from 16 Jul 2007 to 28 Jan 2011 got a MUC. The award was to CTF 134/144. No word on why, and check NDAWS to verify for your boat.
5/03/2012 7:22 PM
@ subbase cmc
You're a clown--and an example of what's wrong with today's navy, whether sub, surface, or aviation.
5/03/2012 7:46 PM
^^^^^^
Was that the Sub Base CMC posting or someone posting at him?
5/03/2012 8:02 PM
That's is the personal cell phone number of CMDCM Tom Vatter. The CMC of the Groton Sub Base. I can't fucking believe he would post it in here. Or maybe someone is fucking with him. Either way it's fucked up and I'm sure people are going to blow his phone up now fucking with him. This has got to be a first. Leave it to TSSBP to be on the leading edge of all things submarine gossip related. BZ to Joel. I can't get enough of this shit.
5/03/2012 8:15 PM
If someone is dorking with CMDCM Vatter, I'd suggest they find better fish to fry.
Sea duty-wise, he's been on nothing but fast attacks, served on the pointy end for Operation Iraqi Freedom, and has had THREE COB tours, including the first deployment for Virginia.
My great-circle distance from Groton is over 1,600 miles these days, but I'd say cut the guy a bit of slack. Save the wrath for the PNW boomer fags.
5/03/2012 8:41 PM
The CMDCM's profile:
http://auth.cnic.navy.mil/NewLondon/About/Command/CommandMasterChief/index.htm
5/03/2012 8:42 PM
Long time reader, first time poster here. The thing that kills me about this blog is the number of people who post here with no real idea of what's actually going on in the Submarine Force and Navy as a whole. Most have been retired for many years and use this blog to get their Submarine Force "news." Given that, of course you have the opinion that the Force is suffering and things are a mess. No offense to Joel here because I think the blog is great, but the vast majority of the blogs here (at least the ones that generate huge numbers of comments) are of a negative nature. Wake up, it's not all gloom and doom. There are boats out there doing great things that don't have Squadron breathing down their necks every day. This idea that there are hot running COs who get the benefit of the doubt no matter what and never have screw-ups is an absolute fallacy. I don't care who the CO is, if you screw up, you have to answer the mail. If you can't answer the mail adequately, then you will get some help. That doesn't mean its the end of the world, it just means you have to fix what's broken. Anyway, I just wanted to say that as a serving Department Head, I don't think things in the Force as as bad as most of you make them out to be. There will always be issues that come up and as a Force we have to deal with them, but at the end of the day there are guys out there still working hard, taking pride in what they do, and doing a good job; its just not always blog-worthy.
5/03/2012 8:50 PM
Seems pretty typical that a boat goes into the yards, the crew suffers, but the boat gets fixed up, then sea trials, some training, a deployment, then all hell breaks loose. Counting this latest story, that makes three similar stories that I know of. I think the seeds of these issues get planted in the yards because we ask too much of the crew.
5/03/2012 8:52 PM
+1. The man took HARTFORD after her collision and brought that boat back to standards and beyond. I'd go to sea with him in a heartbeat.
5/03/2012 8:53 PM
I was too late there - the +1 was on just sayin's posts.
5/03/2012 8:53 PM
If Vatter is the prototypical COB doing more than one tour, why don't the lazy ass retirement grabbing MCPOs at Sub school go back to sea and earn the paycheck the Navy has so graciously provided!
5/03/2012 9:17 PM
^^^Thank you for the +1 and fixing my oversight as well. Fixing the SNAFU onboard the brokedick Hartford as COB had to be no small feat.
Whoever is giving Vatter shit here has to have a serious case of penis envy. Next time the doc suggests a penile implant, little dude, go with it. But stay away from the midshipmen, please...both male and female.
5/03/2012 9:28 PM
^^^^
Hope you still active duty, because your worth two officers!
5/03/2012 9:32 PM
Can we turn this into a made-tv movie?
5/03/2012 9:36 PM
anonymous @5/3/12 9:17 pm
"...why don't the lazy ass retirement grabbing MCPOs at Sub school go back to sea and earn the paycheck the Navy has so graciously provided!"
--------------------------------------------
Answer: another GOB network hookup with the COB detailer. COB detailer should be telling these served-COBs, "if you want to stay in after your shore tour, either go back to sea as a COB or put in a CMC package." If they don't want to do either, put in your chit for xfer to FR.
BTW, concur with Vatter being a hero re. HARTFORD. Still begs the question, why/how did CSS and CSG let the boat's standards degrade to that point? Things like that don't happen overnight.
5/03/2012 9:48 PM
Things like that don't happen overnight.
^^^Actually, that's pretty much exactly when they happen. In fact, usually really, really early in the morning...pre coffee and all.
5/03/2012 10:03 PM
No longer on ACDU, but thank you for the upcheck. My SSN days are long behind me.
'sides...as you 'might can tell' (as they say in Texas)...I don't speak PC.
Tip o' the hat to CMDCM Vatter. Wish we'd crossed paths.
-- Former DALLAS Weps
5/03/2012 10:09 PM
Looks like about 90% of the posts on this blog are from a bunch of assholes who have nothing better to do. If you don't really know what is going on in the submarine force, shut the fuck up. For those of us who have a clue, keep the posts comin'. There are some useful comments on here. I agree with the Vatter praises. For those messin with him, you people have no idea. Probably a bunch of boomer girls, never deployed outside of a box in the middle of nowhere. And if some of you are fast boat, you should check yourself...probably get the fuck out or split tour to a trident. But definitely serve in a first lieutenant billet somewhere, after having your dolphins and balls removed.
5/03/2012 10:44 PM
Long time lurker - first time poster.
Been active duty for 25 years - half enlisted half LDO. I make my own coffee, thanks.
I don't think the Submarine force or the Navy as a whole has changed much since the 80's. Same problems just more exposure. I didn't have an iPhone when I was an E-4 and didn't know, nor care that the the CO/COB on the boat next to mine just got fired.
Guys have been making Chief between 8 and 13 years since the 70's and O-5's/O-4's have been commanding submarines since WW2. Not sure the structure or average age of the high and mid level leadership of the boats has change much in half a century. And although we might like to believe it, the kids manning the boats now are every bit as smart and competent as we were. maybe more so. Your predecessors said the same thing you're saying about these guys - and it's bullshit.
A big nuclear mistake is fatal for the CO. A series of small ones just as bad. If it's a holy shit, we aint getting U/W, tell NR mistake the commodore is just the middle man. That CO is fucked if his guys fucked up and he didn't catch it. He's gonna answer the mail, on the phone, with the 4 star.
The COB?? Maybe the squadron noted a systemic problem with the > E-7 leadership aft which the COB failed to address.
Is the EDMC still on board?
What the fuck does the Groton CMC and pink bowties have to do with a CO and COB getting fired in Pearl? As far as I can tell he's been at sea as long or longer than me and been a COB 3X. Good on him for posting his number - call him so he can tell you to fuck off.
5/04/2012 1:08 AM
Post at 1:08am...That is one bad ass LDO. I agree with EVERYTHING you said! We could use a little more like you...and that is coming from a Senior Chief!
5/04/2012 2:06 AM
AMEN anon @ 0108!
5/04/2012 5:36 AM
Only thing that has changed.....the Internet and it being used to gossip like a bunch of women on sites especially ones like this
Has anyone called the number of the cmc yet???
5/04/2012 5:50 AM
Former U.S. submariners have some reasonable concerns over what they see going on in the military, including the boats.
For instance: this morning's news about a crackdown on military discipline, which attributes top-level concerns to "moral" issues.
NO SHIT, Dick?
What the bleep is "moral" in a military that allows homosexual behavior and puts women on submarines, with full knowledge before-hand as to how that will play out?
WE the former boat people deplore the social experimentation that the politicians have created in the military these days, and I for one APPLAUD the 'pink bow ties' protest. The First Amendment is still intact. The Constitution that ACDU is sworn to uphold? Not so much.
If the U.S. government is now the supposed God-like authority to tell the military what's moral and what's not -- the same gov't that sports an 80%+ DISapproval rating -- all I can say is good luck with that.
We're pissed off and frustrated with what we see as ZERO moral-compass leadership in this country. If some are taking that frustration out on the boats 'cuz mil-std-wise that's all they really know, I, personally, can understand that.
BTW, the protests are all well and fine in my book...but what I want to know is, where are the resignations in protest? From where I'm standing, they've been earned, and it does not speak well for the military leadershp that we haven't seen some very public resignations over the current 'policy' issues.
5/04/2012 6:11 AM
Long-time reader/sometimes commenter.
The "new trend in firings" that we have been seeing recently can come down to a few possible causes/sources (Most probable to least probable):
1. New rules have been generated and people are not changing to meet them.
2. Old rules are now being more strictly enforced.
3. The training/advancement/selection system is generating poor output from poor input (Garbage in/Garbage out)
4. Rules (old and new) are being selectively/maliciously enforced to further XXXX agenda (add your own comspiracy theory here)
These are just my own thoughts and opinions (everybody has 'em, some smell, others think they don't) from 15yrs outside the active duty world. I still keep in touch with a few shipmates who are in, and their inputs seem to indicate a mixture of #s 1-3.
5/04/2012 7:08 AM
Anon @7:08
I believe the constant changing of rules and added requirements has been a role player in all these firings. How significant? Probably small, but when all the small things add up, big problems result.
I do not envy COBs their job. Mandatory motorcycle training, mandatory sexual assault prevention training, mandatory this that and the other thing. And, oh by the way, all that other training we used to do? Still required.
Someday someone will figure out 5 minutes of effective training telling the Sailors not to drink and drive, attend motorcycle safety, don't haze or harass and don't sexually assault someone is better than hours and hours of repetitive garbage. Hold the individual Sailors responsible, stop throwing additional requirements at the boats and get on with the mission.
And more shenanigans...
In addition to the 2 MA's at Sub Base Groton, an additional 12 are under investigation.
http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/crime/2-sailors-assigned-to-groton-base-found-with-pot
5/04/2012 7:29 AM
Just my two cents:
I worked directly for the FORCM in Pearl when I was in the Navy. I was nothing more than his bitch, as well as the bitch for the EA, COS, and Admiral at SUBPAC. I wrote the endorsing letters from the FORCM to the NPC for prospective COBs and reviewed COB packages (but I wasn't a YN). I can tell you this, if you think sea time isn't a factor into whether or not he would endorse a package you are greatly mistaken.
The way the process would work is that a CSS CMC would call or visit the FORCM and tell him that he has someone (on one of his boats or staff) who he thinks would make a good COB. The CSS CMC would give FORCM a list of prior duty assignments, last 5 FITREPs, and a thorough explanation as to why he thinks this person should be a COB. He then would have the prospective COB visit or call him to explain to him why he wants and should be a COB. If the FORCM was pleased with the prospective COB then he could proceed with his qual card. If he wasn't happy (which was usually due to a lack of sea time) he would tell the guy to get another sea tour under his belt and then try again.
I heard countless times, "there is no way in hell anybody with only two sea tours is going to be a COB while on my watch". Or "this guy has avoided tough billets so why should he be a COB", "this guy has more shore duty tours than sea tours", "this guy has only been in for 13 years, I've got more time at sea than he has in the Navy".
Another thing, when a COB gets fired its not just the CSS CMC and commodore who makes that decision, its also discussed with SUBPAC (FORCM, COS, and Admiral) and SUBFOR if its a SUBPAC boat.
From my time at working in the front office at SUBPAC I saw first hand the decision making process that went into firing a COB and CO. I saw a few COBs get fired and a couple of COs go to Admiral's Mast. People in leadership positions screw up just like junior sailors. I have no idea why the CO and COB of the COLUMBIA got fired. I can say that there is usually more to a story than what you read on a blog. Often time, only a few people actually know all the details of why someone gets fired like a COB or CO.
I'm sure not all FORCMs operate the same way. But I know for a fact that the FORCM I worked for always took into consideration the amount of sea time a prospective COB had.
And if you think I'm just blowing smoke up your ass, I've got plenty of pictures with the FORCM and Admiral.
5/04/2012 7:51 AM
Kiss the ring....or you your can't be in my canoe club. Sounds like the Good ol' boy network is alive and kicking form the previous post! HOO-YA!
5/04/2012 9:42 AM
The good ol' boy network? If thats what you consider it for screening someone who wants to be the enlisted leader of a submarine. Maybe the submarine force should just let anybody be a COB, no screening process at all. I'm sure that would work out well
5/04/2012 10:01 AM
Anon who said-Kiss the ring....or you your can't be in my canoe club. Sounds like the Good ol' boy network is alive and kicking form the previous post! HOO-YA!
Can't you read and interpret? He just said, the FORCM took in account experience, TIS,TIR, Sea Time, personal interview along with recommendation. That was just to continue qualifications. It wasn't a blessing and he's a COB. Thats the way it was done and should be done. We have made a mockery of it now. Open your eyes!
5/04/2012 10:20 AM
to: 7:51 AM
You have plenty of pictures w/the FORCM and Admiral. What creditability does that add? Just proves you don't get it. I have picutres of me with alot of famous people; does that make me famous? You are a dumb F.
5/04/2012 11:40 AM
Seems like whoever wrote the above comment must have been one of those who didn't get to become a COB
5/04/2012 11:44 AM
Coners are horrible leaders for the most part. Kissing ass it's what they do best. We know that. These Forward Area Guys(FAGS) pray they will have a strong EDMC to assist them and not have to worry back aft. I know there were COBs in Guam that were never LCPOs at sea. So how can they relate or lead a boot Chief? They can't.
5/04/2012 11:45 AM
You have plenty of pictures w/the FORCM and Admiral. What creditability does that add? Just proves you don't get it. I have picutres of me with alot of famous people; does that make me famous? You are a dumb F.
You're an idiot. What he is saying is that he has proof that he worked in the front office at SUBPAC
5/04/2012 11:46 AM
This is all so humerous...less time reading this blog some of you and maybe you would make COB!
5/04/2012 11:51 AM
What was this post about?
5/04/2012 12:14 PM
I heard countless times, "there is no way in hell anybody with only two sea tours is going to be a COB while on my watch". Or "this guy has avoided tough billets so why should he be a COB", "this guy has more shore duty tours than sea tours", "this guy has only been in for 13 years, I've got more time at sea than he has in the Navy".
Amen
5/04/2012 12:15 PM
I know which FORCM/GRP TWO CMC he is referring to in the above quote. That man ruled SUBPAC. You never heard anything from the PAC!
Need more standards like that now!
5/04/2012 12:18 PM
Somewhere in all this is the fact that the CO was canned as well-any insights out there or is that the COB's fault?
5/04/2012 1:01 PM
I can just hear those quotes coming from ol' Mo. Way old school and zero tolerance for BS. I think he eats puppies and small children for lunch.
5/04/2012 1:08 PM
Mo was a piece of....he was definitely part of the good ole boy system.
5/04/2012 1:11 PM
Okay I'll say it Mo Pollard was tough but fair. If you didn't pay your dues, you did not move on.
My hat is still off to you Mainerd!!
5/04/2012 1:18 PM
Who is Mainerd?
5/04/2012 1:32 PM
Whoa...what happened to talking about the original reason for the post. I was a little slow to check out TSSBP once I heard what happened on CBA. I know several on the boat, and something I think ought to be brought to light was the command climate among the officers.
I hope my friends don't kill me for posting this, but the previous XO, from what I hear, was a terror to work for. All he did was yell at people, particularly in attempts to crush the officers below him. Never tried to conduct any constructive training...it was always yelling. Whatever shred of confidence any of the officers had didn't last long, and they did whatever they could to survive. In an environment like that, I could see how the CO wouldn't get what was expected from his officer team, and I don't know if the previous XO alieniated the CPO quarters the same way. The new XO is great, from what I hear, so that will help mitigate the damage.
I know one of the guys personally, and he was a good, hard working officer before he came to this boat. I have never seen him this miserable before, and he has done just about everything to keep from quitting (he is a stubborn SOB if anything). To quote, the only thing that keeps him from doing that is taking care of his men.
Hang in there brother, and I apologize for posting this. I know you will try to kick my ass over this, but I just couldn't sit here and see others think you an assclown or shitbag when you've stayed in the fight while I would have told someone to "take this job and shove it!" This is coming from friend that has been shot at in combat in the sandbox, so I know about people taking care of their men! I'll be praying for you and your men.
5/04/2012 1:40 PM
There is already rumor of another one coming!
5/04/2012 1:44 PM
Which base is the rumor coming from????? Which COB is getting fired???
5/04/2012 2:23 PM
"I know which FORCM/GRP TWO CMC he is referring to in the above quote. That man ruled SUBPAC. You never heard anything from the PAC!"
The way things work is that if the fleet, squadron or group ends in an even number then it is on the LANT side.
If they end in an odd number, then guess what? That's right...they belong on the PAC side.
NUB training over.
5/04/2012 2:48 PM
NUB training is in session.....he was the Group 2 CMC before becoming SUBPAC FORCM
5/04/2012 2:58 PM
Maybe we need some more Big Al Ks around. He was a solid leader in all respects. If you fail to take care of your people then they they will take care of you in ways not considered desirable. Perhaps the food chain has gotten clogged up with chuckleheads and knucklheads?
5/04/2012 3:10 PM
Okay I'll say it Mo Pollard was tough but fair. If you didn't pay your dues, you did not move on...
While I agree Mo was tough, he certainly wasn't fair. He was a huge rate basher. If you were a lower level rate he loved you as a starting point until you proved yourself a clown. If you were an upper level rate, he made fun of you until you proved your 'toughness', then once that was done you were accepted tho he would still flip you crap. God help you if you were a LAN guy - hethought they were less than useless.
Regarding CBA...they blew time requirements and were underway before they figured it out. ISIC oversight afterwards instead of helping just kept unravelling the holey sweater until more and more problems were revealed. I consider this akin to picking on a special needs child instead of taking him by the hand and is the reason Squadron staff have such a lousy rep. Are they pointing out valid errors? Yes. But instead of being an instrument to improve the force, they are tearing it apart as a result of intense scrutiny. Sad. Did the boat have issues? Yes. Did they handle them correctly? Maybe not. But as the 771 command element screwed the crew (restricting all to the pier for a week) and overworked them, Squadron was right there with steno pads documenting every misstep and telling the Commodore to prove their existence instead of just helping their brothers in need. Sad.
5/04/2012 5:17 PM
Inport and restricted to the pier for a week???? WTF. This can't be true. What are the details here? It must have been justified if squadron allowed it and monitored it.
5/04/2012 5:28 PM
Any monkey can follow a checklist and bury a ship under a mountain of comments, whether it be a squadron monitor, ORSE, TRE, etc. and just walk away back to the desk and come back the next day for more.
The harder thing to do - and where all squadrons suck right now - is to mentor and train their struggling crews. So far, commodores haven't been held to any standards to ensure they effectively train, maintain, and equip their subs. They will do exactly what happened here - good luck to the next permanent CO and COB.
To be effective takes initiative, and it takes getting off your ass at the squadron building and actually trying to help. It may even require you to go to sea and help - believe me, I've done it and it works wonders.
Remember squadron bubbas, you were on a sub once, and will probably go back to one. Your shit does stink too shipmate, so do your jobs! If a CO, XO, or COB gets fired for misconduct, you get a pass on that, but not for this. UNSAT!
Been there, Done that, and Have the Scars to Prove it!
5/04/2012 5:29 PM
I keep hearing about CCC and CHY struggling. CHY has a change of command soon, so hopefully we'll not see another "Relieved slightly early" BS line fed to the force again.
Any Pearl info out there?
5/04/2012 5:32 PM
Mo was the man. He was tough on everybody, even fellow A-gangers. He held EVERYONE to standards, the sub force needs more leaders like him. Just because you're tough on somebody people think you're an ass. I would love to see the sub force without someone holding others to standards.
5/04/2012 5:54 PM
If you morons are going to call a ship, a group, or an individual out at least have the rocks to post your name vice "anonymous". This is pitiful.
5/04/2012 7:04 PM
Congrats on your freshly-minted (May 2012) internet tough-guy account.
5/04/2012 7:35 PM
Yes, let's hear about CCC and CHY. People keep hinting, but no one has posted anything about why those COs or COBs might be on the chopping block. Details or rumors, pls post!!
5/04/2012 7:54 PM
RE: Columbia--If the CO and COB were relieved for nuke issues, it stands to reason that there is a new ENG and EDMC? I wouldn't neccessarily expect the press release to mention it, but I would expect that those guys are gone regardless. The shipyard chews good men up and spits them out, it's happened for years and probably won't stop anytime soon.
RE: Squadron Staff--I've found it to be like any other community; a smaller sample of the larger community that supplies it. There's good eggs and bad ones. I can tell you from experience that it's a much more attractive job before you start than it is when you are doing it.
RE: Master Chiefs hanging out at the Khaki Club. Many of you are overstating the implications of this, in my opinion. It's called a peer group fellas, and it's no different than a group of PO3's hanging out together at (insert bar here). If 5 Second Classes have been on the boat together for 4 years and have become friends, they might not automatically accept the newer, younger FN/SN into their off-duty activities. Doesn't mean the group of PO2's is out to wreak havoc on the Navy, twisting their mustaches and laughing in a sinister fashion.
RE: Making the EDMC part of the "Command Team". Horrible idea, I think, for a couple of reasons. First being that the EDMC has enough to do as it is. Second one being that the last thing you need is a division of authority inside the CPO Quarters.
RE: 8-year Chiefs--how many of you folks bashing 8-year Chiefs were the ones defending the MCPON a month ago when he announced his upcoming retirement and some people said they wouldn't miss him? Just curious, because he was a fast-tracker who had a ton of support here just weeks ago, but now others of his ilk (he had 13 years in when he started his first COB tour) are being lambasted. 8-year Chiefs are no different that 18-year Chiefs, in that if they're smart enough, willing to put in the time and effort to do their job as best they can, aren't afraid to ask for help when they need it, and put their sailors' needs ahead of their own wants, they can succeed.
RE: Guys (anonymously, no less) trashing the reputation of a guy who's done what Tommy Vatter has accomplished--total crap. I don't know him well, never served with him, but he's made a difference everywhere he's gone. He's one of the good guys.
Best of luck to the guys on the Columbia. They'll have a tough row to hoe for a bit, but history tells us that if the right people get into the right spots, that boat can be back doing great things in a few years.
5/04/2012 8:04 PM
I wish someone would ask the real question:
"Have we made it too hard to be a good CO for both the crew _and_ the boat?"
5/04/2012 8:23 PM
Squadron/TYCOM/ISIC "help" = institutional scab picking. Rick West needs to go away and take his line of HOOYAH with him. Jim Herdt, Terry Scott, Rick West--a bunch of self-serving do-nothings (at least once they became MCPON)...hate to admit it, but the best MCPONs thus far have been from the aviation community.
5/04/2012 8:41 PM
And there ya go! The guys in charge who have screwed up people are posting on here! Of course anyone can get an email hell Maybe I will repost as President Obama!
5/04/2012 8:45 PM
Oh an Rick West is to busy posting on Facebook to come here
5/04/2012 8:46 PM
The dept head firings don't make this posting (unless you guys they worked for post it)
Way too many of them and most of the problem. Yawhnnnnnn.
They are the JOs of the current crop of commodores and their useless deputies.
5/04/2012 9:03 PM
HOOYAH HOOYAH HOOYAH
Damn, I feel better now!
Reply to HOOYAH!
5/04/2012 9:06 PM
Man...all you assholes have no fuckin' clue what you are posting about! If you don't know the history of how Squadron DID provide feedback, help, and training...shut the fuck up. It is the ship's responsibility to take the input from the guys who have been there and done that, and actually apply it...which is what CBA failed to do. The Squadron isn't there to babysit. Each Squadron in Pearl has 9 boats to worry about. I know every time I call the Squadron building, they are at sea...on one of those 9 boats. Whoever thinks it is a desk job is a fuckin' moron. And the rumors about other boats?...idiots. And the people asking for rumors?...holy shit! Bigger idiots! None of you have the balls to spread that shit in person in front of any khaki in any sort of position to find out about it. You all deserve to sit in front of the green table, or stop getting your retirement checks...whichever applies! If you actually know something is going on, man up and report it instead of making vague references about random boats that you heard from some disgruntled Third Class.
5/04/2012 9:29 PM
Yet you post annonomously too HYPOCRITE! And NO BALLS!
5/04/2012 9:34 PM
9:34...as did you...fuckin' idiot.
5/04/2012 9:36 PM
I didn't post a vulgar rant go drink some more! Lol! You have no clue!!! No clue!
5/04/2012 9:38 PM
agree with anon 9:36...
5/04/2012 9:38 PM
To a few people here: this wasn't a "just out of shipyard" problem. CBA has been out of shipyard since 2008, with 2 westpacs since. All of the officers, all of the chiefs, and the VAST majority of the crew have turned over.
To anon @ 5/4 1340: weak DH's create that XO. Since I know the previous XO, and would gladly sail with him as the CO, you might ask your "friend" his opinion on the DH's (unless he is one, of course).
5/04/2012 9:56 PM
Wasn't this similar to the Kentucky firing? Loss of confidence in ability to lead. Seems like a waste of good officers, so many bad CO's go on after being relieved early.
5/04/2012 10:12 PM
I didn't realize they'd been out of the yard that long when I posted earlier, thank you for correcting me.... however, I still contend that going through an ERO or DMP is the hardest thing a submariner will endure, whether it applies to CBA or not.
5/04/2012 10:49 PM
Mo Pollard got shit on "Battling" Bob Bentley. That dude could stare down the Pope.
5/05/2012 12:08 AM
I'm the 9:29 anonymous ranter. Let me clarify...I have no issue with anonymous posters. When I said " If you actually know something is going on, man up and report it instead of making vague references about random boats that you heard from some disgruntled Third Class", I meant it quite literally and in context. In this discussion, the CCC, the CHY, and the SFE have all been mentioned by anonymous people, making non-specified claims of poor performance...and this is what I have a problem with. If those boats have a problem, somebody real needs to know. As it is, rumors are being spread and that will get us nowhere. People are sullying the reputation of the crews without specific facts or evidence. And even if the accusations are valid, be specific about what accusations you are making, instead of just a random derogatory comment. If you have something valid...say it. People have asked what is going on, and those questions have not been answered. Leads me to believe these are not legitimate assessments.
5/05/2012 12:10 AM
^^^^^^
Squadron tool, just kindly go away....we all see through your lies and distortions. May God have mercy on your retched Soul.
5/05/2012 12:24 AM
Former Squadron...and if you think those are lies...you are sadly mistaken. AND you spelled "retched" wrong.
5/05/2012 2:35 AM
"To anon @ 5/4 1340: weak DH's create that XO. Since I know the previous XO, and would gladly sail with him as the CO, you might ask your "friend" his opinion on the DH's (unless he is one, of course)."
So if weak DHs create that XO, is yelling the only alternative there was? Seen a couple piss poor DHs in my time, and the XO didn't yell at them. Either trained them or got rid of them.
Why not fire the weak DHs? Wait...we don't have enough of them staying in until recently. Did he try to train any of them? Wait...I forgot we don't really train our reliefs anymore either. They either magically have the ability, or we shit on them until they quit or are fired.
I know the previous XO before his CBA days...sounds like the same person he always has been. Always angry. Can't wait to see how his CO tour turns out.
5/05/2012 3:00 AM
NUB training is in session.....he was the Group 2 CMC before becoming SUBPAC FORCM
Thank You
5/05/2012 3:32 AM
4--stop comment wasn't mine. SQD has same problem as a boat. Some good some bad. Point is if a boat is following the rules then you won't see the SQD weenies they have other boats to babysit. I've had my share of SDQ monitored evolutions and they left after we could address our own shortcomings.
5/05/2012 6:25 AM
Navigator Suicide on the 758 four days prior to the cahnge of command...what's up with that?
http://www.meetup.com/sandiegocyclists/events/58028982/
5/05/2012 9:26 AM
Everyone has to leave sometime...Every new beginning comes from anothers ending... Time to Join the real world Biotches... Have Fun... Happy Cinco de Mayo!!
5/05/2012 10:51 AM
The Asheville Nav case is very sad. I had the chance to work with him on some special projects and he is definitely one of the Good Guys!
RIP Kyle!
5/05/2012 11:18 AM
4 May 8:04PM anon- the Khaki Club is different from your PO3s hanging out because the newer, younger FN/SN's promotion is not dependent on those 5 Second Classes.
5/05/2012 11:42 AM
Are you saying the selection board isn't really fair and that selection is based on who you know? Say it ain't so.
5/05/2012 1:38 PM
What happened on the Asheville is this current?
5/05/2012 1:42 PM
Ashville thing happened back a few months ago...very sad.
5/05/2012 1:51 PM
Deleted a couple of comments based on information from someone who was able to authoritatively say the allegations were unequivocally untrue.
5/05/2012 5:52 PM
3383, it seems from your comment that you have never sat an Advancement Board or been to the Chief's Club. I have done both and I can tell you that I have always left with a clear conscious. SO, if you have been to an advancement board that means you were part of the conspiracy or witness it and never spoke up; either way that you made you part of the problem if there was a problem.
5/05/2012 7:13 PM
^
I was trying to point out the false equivalence being made between the groups.
But I also do not believe that one has to have been part of a process to comment on the results.
5/05/2012 9:20 PM
If you morons are going to call a ship, a group, or an individual out at least have the rocks to post your name vice "anonymous". This is pitiful.
Ok, so how in Hell did you get all the way to MMCM(SS) and not learn that it's a BOAT, not a ship?
5/05/2012 10:07 PM
That's because we have no sense of heritage these days but I could tell you the allowable size of a tampon.
5/05/2012 10:20 PM
I'm the anon LDO who posted a day ago who makes his own coffee. I lied- I get it from 7-11 or I make my daughter make it for me.
What I gather from the rumor mill is a relief for engineering problem. Sounds like a pre crit issue. Probably the straw that broke the back. Anybody know if the ENG, EDMC, RC Chief are still onboard? if so, I'm probably talking out my ass. I think I am wrong because the COB is no longer with us. Strange. Numerous posts suggest a nuc problem but the COB relief suggests something else...either way the posts have obviously gotten away from the original topic and turned in to a Goat locker cat fight. A prelude to the first female chief perhaps???
BTW it's too complicated to post as other than anon. If your looking for me, I'll be on the waterfront - probably till I die.
5/05/2012 10:23 PM
I can't believe some of the crap I'm reading on here...
"Commodores don't mentor CO's..."
Well, no shit-- they shouldn't have to. If a senior Officer with over 15 years of service needs mentoring in order to be successful, the system failed long ago.
"Drinking with your boss = buddy club..."
Welcome to life. In any job you work for, there comes a time where you are going to have to prove to your boss that you have the social skills required to be successful in a managerial position. This is not unique to the Navy. I also am willing to wager a large sum of money that those who show up to the O-club or CPO club for "training" one day a week at 1500 and refrain from alcoholic beverages are treated no differently than those who do drink them. The idea that you HAVE to drink alcohol to attend social events and be accepted into the group is absurd.
My guess is that the Sailors railing against this practice are the disgruntled, pessimistic E-6's and E-7's who choose to duck out of any and every social event because they can't stand the thought of enjoying their time with co-workers in a social setting... Alcoholism is a convenient excuse to justify being a hermit.
"Inspections are decided before the inspection..."
Well no shit, sherlock. Welcome to the US military. You didn't think all those squadron and group riders were there just to give you suggestions, did you? Your real evaluation comes when you don't know it's occurring. This is actually a lot more fair than being judged by a 36 hour snapshot of your ship's performance, but hey, complain away about it.
5/05/2012 10:52 PM
Wow, this topic has certainly *fired* people up! No pun intended. (well, okay, it was intended)
5/06/2012 12:42 AM
Hmmm...seems there is a trend in the way things are handled these days. Used to be things were handled at the lowest possible level on board, and now all it takes for a couple of disgruntled sailors with an axe to grind to get someone fired is to go to the neasest SQDN rep and cry foul.
Where is the sense of comradrie and looking out for your buddy these days? I'm sure it's out there, but it's getting harder to find in this new world of "Zero Defect" mentality, coupled with the new generation of "No Child Left Behind" pass them at all costs push. More and more kids these days simply don't posses the true meaning of responsibility and accountablity.
Please don't misunderstand my comments, there is a time and a place for "whistleblowers" and outside the command "help", we once stayed in-port during a hurricane sortie due to a lack of a Trim or Draim pump (both out for motor re-winds) that the CO said we didn't need for a surface transit, because the wives raised holy hell with the squadron Ombudsman.
5/06/2012 3:07 AM
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